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"DBA or WAB?" Topic


Warhammer: Ancient Battles

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Comments or corrections?

leg1on13 Jul 2006 12:29 a.m. PST

How do they differ?

Are they equally popular?

Is it possible to build an Early Imperial Roman army that can be used in both games?

Thanks,

Legion

advocate13 Jul 2006 12:43 a.m. PST

The scale and approach of the two rulesets is massively different. You will only need about 50 figures for a DBA army; at least twice that for a WAB army, and probably more. DBA is element based, whereas WAB is single-figure. You certainly could not use a 'standard' DBA army for WAB. On the other hand…
If you base your infantry and cavalry on 20mm wide bases (for WAB) you can put 3 onto a 60mm wide sabot for DBA – you might also choose to use a slightly wider (say 80mm) sabots to allow four infantry on, and give your cavalry some elbow room. Skirmishe types would go 2 to the base anyway. You would definitely want to have magnetic-based figures and steel pepr on your sabots (or vice versa for this. I'm doing something similar for my 11th Century troops, which I have used for WAB and Pig Wars, and also for element-based games such as Warrior Kings and Shattered Lances.
The advantage of this approach is that you will be able to do a 'Roman Civil War' in DBA once you have your WAB army ready (depending on the size of the WAB army you may well be into 'big battle' DBA at this point).

Skeptic13 Jul 2006 3:59 a.m. PST

You can play WAB with DBA-style basing. For more detail, check WABlist@yahoogroups.com

To me, DBA seems to be more abstracted and chess-like than WAB.

No Name0213 Jul 2006 4:13 a.m. PST

Well lets see, DBA is usually played in 15mm scale, WAB 25mm.

DBA has figures based in groups (called elements) and WAB they are based singly.

In DBA each element has a rating based on its type, in WAB each figure has weapons, armour, fighting/shooting abilities, morale rating, number of wounds and toughness.

2 very different rule systems basically. But yes you can play WAB with figures based for DBA but not the other way around.

hurcheon13 Jul 2006 4:57 a.m. PST

DBA is discrete elements where the unit is pretty much of a set value throughout its lidfe int eh battle

WAB armies are split into discrete units, bu tthe units are comprised of single figures that, as they are lost, impact the fighting ability of the unit

DBA has a randomising effect on hoew many oprders may be issued each turn

WAB is pure helicopter generalship, though Psychology may limit the choises of some of your nuits, like Fanatic Celts charging forward when you might not want them to.

DBS is designed so that armies from throughout all of Ancient and MEdiaval history can be pitted agaisnt eeach other, but defining them as to function

WAB armies tends only to work within the books and since they have different authors the power levels outside periods may be a bit knackeerd.

I've played both, I prefer WAB

hurcheon13 Jul 2006 4:59 a.m. PST

As others have said you can finagle 28mm DBA based armies into WAB (though the basing ain't perfect)

You could always mount the WA bases onto the WAB bases, but it won't look good.

Condottiere13 Jul 2006 5:39 a.m. PST

This reminds me of those old TV beer commercials here in the US: "Tastes great, less filling!" "Tastes great, less filling!""Tastes great, less filling!""WAB's great, DBA less filling!"

IGWARG1 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian13 Jul 2006 6:15 a.m. PST

DBA and WAB are two completely different games, can't be compared.

DBA is a very abstract "beer and pretsel" game. Unit in DBA represented by just one stand and all the atributes of that unit are in it's description: blades, cavalry, ect.

WAB feels like a skirmish type game that is converted for play with big armies. Because of this it's not that abstract and there are many variations to a unit's size, morale, weapons and armor. WAB armies are points based and you will need more figures to play WAB.

Rudysnelson13 Jul 2006 6:24 a.m. PST

I tend to agree with Igwarg1 comments. Scales are different and number of castings needed as well.In regards to sales, the DBA level of interest and sales far exceeds WAB.

JJartist13 Jul 2006 7:38 a.m. PST

There's no reason why DBA based figures cannot be used in WAB.
JeffJ

Rudysnelson13 Jul 2006 8:07 a.m. PST

jeff, I am referring to sales. Most of the WAb players in the southern USA are doing it in 25mm. Almost all of the DBA players are using 15mm. That if my reference.

As an aside, Basing is also an issue in regards to double use.

Mr Elmo13 Jul 2006 8:29 a.m. PST

DBA is a very abstract "beer and pretsel" game.

You know…some here have called DBA a "profound simulation"

Anyway, between the two I think I like DBA better for the following reasons:

1) Fewer figures per army helps with my painting ADD
2) Faster playing time means more games per game day

I've played both games and both have equal "funnage" during the game. I'd also say that both are equally (un?)realistic.

crhkrebs13 Jul 2006 10:43 a.m. PST

12 posts in and no mention of Hoplon yet. C'mon Judas, you are losing your touch! Hope to run into you at Historicon.

Ralph

andyfb13 Jul 2006 11:29 a.m. PST

crhkrebs….LOL!….i was thinking the same thing myself…

Matthew..you must be slipping lad!

Ah…but the title is DBA…not DBM..

Cheers Andy

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP13 Jul 2006 1:05 p.m. PST

Justin says, "But yes you can play WAB with figures based for DBA but not the other way around."
You can play DBA with figures based for WAB. 25mm bases in DBA are 60mm wide and of various depths depending on the troop type. Put your WAB figues on small bases with metal bottoms. Make the top of your DBA stand magnetic, or the other way around. When you want to play DBA, just stick the magnetic/steel based figure on the DBA stand and play. The number of figues for DBA stands are listed in the rules, but there is no problem using fewer if you cannot fit enough on the DBA stand due to largeness of the single figure base.

JJartist13 Jul 2006 1:35 p.m. PST

"but there is no problem using fewer if you cannot fit enough on the DBA stand due to largeness of the single figure base."

I've been slapped across the electronic head and neck for suggesting the above… but surely amongst sane folks, players can accomodate the slight differences in basing very easily between both rules systems.
JeffJ

JJartist13 Jul 2006 1:39 p.m. PST

Legio Verus 13 Jul 2006 12:29 a.m. PST
How do they differ?

——-> WAB focuses on individual models/weapons and unit abilities. DBx focuses on command and control and rock/paper/scissors combat interactions.

Are they equally popular?

———> Yes, they are especially popular with players who play either one or both.

Is it possible to build an Early Imperial Roman army that can be used in both games?

———> Yes, although WAB offers more formation options whcih may cause a Roman player to find himself frustrated by the 4 model wide basing.
JeffJ

No Name0213 Jul 2006 3:06 p.m. PST

"You can play DBA with figures based for WAB. 25mm bases in DBA are 60mm wide and of various depths depending on the troop type. "

I have heard it suggested that 25mm DBA players prefer elements 80mm wide.

Yes the sabot principle should work. If you do indeed go up to 80mm element size then all WAB figures would fit on, with no reduction in the number of figures required.

However in DBA (or DBM for that matter) the number of figures on an element is irrelevant to game play. You could use one figure to an element – so an army would be 12 figures.

Decebalus14 Jul 2006 4:56 a.m. PST

"I have heard it suggested that 25mm DBA players prefer elements 80mm wide.

Yes the sabot principle should work. If you do indeed go up to 80mm element size then all WAB figures would fit on, with no reduction in the number of figures required."

Absolutely true.

Take a look here.
link

No Name0214 Jul 2006 8:02 a.m. PST

Decebalus, thats the first time I had seen the 80mm base size in use and I agree, they look good. Thank you.

Farstar14 Jul 2006 10:36 a.m. PST

I think that's what the HOTT crowd referes to as "duplo". Good looking, with the potential to appease both the players and the "useful diorama" painters.

WAB, by comparison, encourages you to use "base frontage" as the measure of rank strength when importing multi-based minis from other games. As such, those 80mm by 40mm DBA duplo bases count just fine as three cav or eight infantry provided you can present casualties to the base in an obvious fashion.

DeanMoto14 Jul 2006 10:55 a.m. PST

Decebalus:

Didn't do a headcount, but would you already know about how many WAB points your 12-stand DBA army would be? grin

leg1on14 Jul 2006 12:02 p.m. PST

Decebalus, thanks very much.

I was wondering how problematic increasing base size to accomodate larger figs would be. I mean, it seems the obvious way to go.

How does doing that affect rules and ranges in DBA?

I'm now even more interested in both games. Thanks a lot!

Legion

Personal logo BigRedBat Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Jul 2006 1:38 p.m. PST

You'd need to increase the DBA board size from 3' to 4' square, and the moves by 33%; doable.

Less doable is the thought of rebasing my 600 odd minis! I lavish a lot of TLC on bases, what with texturing, 4 coats drybrushing, ink, varnish, static grass and magnabase.

Also, I'd use more minis on an 80mm frontage than a 60mm; I like a dense appearance. I prefer overcrowded WRG basing, designed for 1970s minis, to spaced-out WAB; you could run a 4 horse chariot between the files of a WAB pike phalanx!

So I'd need to buy and paint another couple of hundred minis, too…

Not going to happen to my minis in a hurry. :-)

Simon

Decebalus15 Jul 2006 3:04 a.m. PST

"Didn't do a headcount, but would you already know about how many WAB points your 12-stand DBA army would be?"

The roman army you see in the link (it is painted by a friend of mine) has the doubled number of infantry models on a base to have two ranks. (We really hate the tiny look of single ranked infantry in DBA). So you have 6 cavalry (120 pts. of WAB), 4 bow armed psiloi (28 pts.), 32 legionaires (512 pts.), 32 auxiliaries (252) and two ballista (62), thats about 1100 pts. if you include characters, leaders etc. But romans are a small army. You would need more romans for a WAB army, but then you could maybe play big battle DBA.

"I was wondering how problematic increasing base size to accomodate larger figs would be. I mean, it seems the obvious way to go.

How does doing that affect rules and ranges in DBA?"

It is all official, because you only double all ranges of 15mm DBA. You need a bigger table of 1.20*1,20, but who really wants to play 60*60 or 90*90. Your troops go faster, but 8" movement for 28mm infantry looks right.

We only changed the depth of some bases. Because we wanted more room for regular infantry (bl, sp …), we use 4cm deep bases (official it would be 3cm). It has a theoretical small effect with fallback, but doesnt affect the game. (And you could use 3cm for fallback if you like.)

Double based DBA is really for the aesthetical look (and that is why we play 28mm) and not for tournament play.

Here you can see some pictures of a battle we played (not the best pictures and text is in german):
link

Decebalus15 Jul 2006 3:23 a.m. PST

Sorry, i was wrong. 100 paces is 2" with our style, so infantry moves 4".

Rudysnelson15 Jul 2006 5:57 a.m. PST

I really agree with an earlier poster that a better comparison for WAB would be with DBM rather than DBA. The number of castings in an army would be closer.

DeanMoto15 Jul 2006 9:50 a.m. PST

Thanks Decebalus for the count; it looked to about that. v/r, Dean

Personal logo BigRedBat Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Jul 2006 2:26 p.m. PST

Decebalus,

Your mate's minis look very effective- I like the second rank effect.

DBA would also look very good using groups of 4 elements on a 6x6 foot table.

We use groups of 3&4 elements with C&C Ancients on a 6x4 table- looks very dramatic.

Simon

Alexander The Pretty Good17 Jul 2006 6:39 a.m. PST

Thanks very much for your help, i will build an army for WAB but use the alternative basing method to play some games with DBA.

Thanks again
Alexander

Judas Iscariot17 Jul 2006 4:38 p.m. PST

You may want to have a look at Hoplon too if you are going to be using an alternate basing for DBA. It is more detailed than DBA, but similar in some respects. It is also no more complicated than WAB…

You may find out about it at the AMS_Hoplon yahoo group…

I can also give you more info here if you like…

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