"Basic Impetus- First impressions and some questions" Topic

Played my first game of Basic Impetus last night. I used Archaic Age Spartans and my brother used Persians from the same period. I got my ass handed to me, losing three stands of hoplites to bow fire after they became disordered crossing a river. I think I was doomed from the start- with only one ranged unit of skirmishers, against his army full of missile units, I had no option but to go to him. However, the river down the middle of the table made a perfect killing ground, as my Disordered units had to stop after crossing it, in range of most of his ranged units. They didn't last long under the weight of bow fire.

Overall, I like the game, and so does my brother. He was a little surprised at how ineffective archery was (but then he's used to Warhammer), but liked the 'bucket of dice' combat system, having been unimpressed with HOTT. Just a few rules questions to make sure we were doing it right:

If a unit wheels, it becomes disordered? I see the logic behind it but it seems kind of harsh to disorder the unit every time it turns, although I suppose the free oblique movement does go someway to rectify that.

I unit A charges unit B, does unit B receive its Impetus bonus, assuming both units are fresh and are entitled to the Impetus bonus? The rules seem to say 'yes' but I thought I'd check.

Question by way of an example: My hoplite unit (VBU 6) was disordered, then came under archery fire. He got a lucky 3 hits. I'm VBU 6, -3 for 3 DAMAGE, then a further -1 for disorder, so I need to get a 2 or less to pass the cohesion test. I rolled a five, so I take 3 LOSSES. And I also become disordered again because I took hits, which causes a further 1 LOSS because I am already disordered. So, my unit has taken 4 LOSSES, and is disordered, giving it an effective VBU of 1, until it rallies, in which case its VBU 2. Are we doing this correctly?

Medium Cavalry can't interpenetrate Heavy Foot? This came up when he wanted to charge his cavalry through his levees.

The extra VBU loss for being disordered is not as simple as it seems. If a unit that is already disordered fails its cohesion test it DOESN'T take an exta loss to VBU as it has already taken an additional loss for the -1 disorder modifier in the calculation. A unit that PASSES a cohesion test and is already disordered DOES take the loss for disorder. This is per Lorenzo either on the Yahoo Group or the Impetus forum. I had been getting this wrong myself and French Knights were being eradicated by English Bowmen a little too quickly.

Ah. I understand now, thanks. That should go someway to rectifying the balance.

"I got my ass handed to me, losing three stands of hoplites to bow fire after they became disordered crossing a river." – "my brother. He was a little surprised at how ineffective archery was (but then he's used to Warhammer)"

Sounds like the archery units did a great job to me. ;-)

He rolled *very* well. :P

After playing another game, Disorder still has us confused. Can someone give me a list of all the circumstances that cause Disorder? We're kinda confused.

2.4.2: "A Unit may become disordered after movement, being fired at or after a melee."

Causes of disorder as a result of movement, see 3.2
A unit is disordered from Firing if it takes any Damage. (6.2)
The same in melee (7.6)

Thanks. Thats a lot simpler than I thought it was :P I also now see that you only become disordered if you wheel *and* move.

Just to clarify something else: Only units armed with Pikes benefit from having a friendly unit behind them?

"Just to clarify something else: Only units armed with Pikes benefit from having a friendly unit behind them?"

Yup. And then only if the friendly unit is also Pikes. DBA this ain't!

Impetuous foot may also form Large Units. Rule 2.5.1, first sentence.

Re: Disorder. I added a few lines to my copy of the rules. This one was based on answers received on the Impetus Forum

If you fail the Cohesion test then you apply the losses decided by the die. If you pass the test, but you are already disordered then you get 1 loss and keep the disorder.

Here is one about Impetus Bonus:

Impetus applies only to the charging Unit. Units also get Impetus when making contact after a pursuit.

The only units that get free oblique movement are Skirmishers, Light Cavalry and some special units per the lists. Here is the rule directly from the book:

Every Unit (but not a Group) can move sideways or make a move at an angle or to the rear up to the maximum movement allowed. This movement gives Disorder if they are not Skirmishers and Light Cavalry or special types of troops shown in the Army Lists.
You cannot perform one of these moves if you are already Disordered with the exception of Skirmishers and Light Cavalry Units that can perform a rear movement even if disordered. You may not contact the enemy with one of these moves

Hope some of that helps.

River crossings have always been a hazardous operation.

Note that the full rules specify the disorder + disorder = a loss is for passing the cohesion test. This is one of many things thing which really encourages rallying of troops, and encourages keeping the enemy disordered and unable to rally (by keeping them tied up in melee). It's a balancing decision.

Regarding impetus and charges, the full rules allow some units to countercharge and gain the impetus bonus if placed in readiness to do so. I think giving just the charger the bonus in BI gives a good game as well as being simpler.

You've got to be careful about confusing Impetus and Basic Impetus rules.

I believe the Impetus interreptation that Bardolph is incorrect. In Basic Impetus, both units get the Impetus bonus in the first round of combat – it's only 'full' Impetus that gives the Impetus Bonus to the attacker (with the option to counter-charge)

Can you point to the paragraph that allows impetus bonus for both sides?

"If a unit that is already disordered fails its cohesion test it DOESN'T take an extra loss to VBU as it has already taken an additional loss for the -1 disorder modifier in the calculation. A unit that PASSES a cohesion test and is already disordered DOES take the loss for disorder."

So once you fail the cohesion test you don't take any further disorder modifiers, right? (we were a little confused about this also.)

Add "in that turn" to that.

Warrenss2, your quote is clear but I can't find that in Basic Impetus (2008 version) even with a full text search.

In 7.6 just "A Unit that is already Disordered (due to movement, firing or melee) and that takes a second Disorder after the melee takes a permanent loss to their VBU." which makes it sound like you take the extra hit in any case.

"So once you fail the cohesion test you don't take any further disorder modifiers, right? (we were a little confused about this also.)"

There is an additional -1 in the cohesion test for being disordered so if you fail it you are effectively losing an extra 1pt of VBU. You stay disordered until you rally.

here I'm :-)

1)Wheel and disorder: you can wheel without disordering. You are disordered if you wheel AND move.

2)Loss due to cumulative disorder: If you fail the test you get only the losses deriving from the test. If you PASS the test and are already disordered, then you get 1 loss (and keep the disorder status).

Being disordered you are more vulnerable. It is very risky to be shoot at while disordered. It is enough that the shooter just roll a 6 and you will get a loss anyway, even passing the test.

Note that in some cases it seems that passing the test or not could be the same.
Example of melee: my VBU is 4 and I'm already disordered. My enemy roll a 6 (1 hit), so I have to test at 2 (VBU=4-Disorder(-1)- hit(-1)=2). I roll no 6s or double 5s so my opponent doesn't take the coehsion test.
I have to make the test:
If I roll a 3 then I get 1 further loss.
If I roll a 1 or a 2 then I pass the test but still get 1 loss (as already disordered).

The difference is that in the first case I loose the melee and I must retreat, giving the possibility to my enemy to follow up and make another melee (possibly with more negative consequences to my unit).

In the second case I pass the test. In other words, I resist. I My unit suffers casulaties but the morale is high enough and my Units stops retreating. The melee is over for that phase.

Ah. This clears a lot of stuff up. With all this maneuvering causig Disorder it seems a player must plan ahead carefully. Should change the dynamic of the game somewhat.

In BI you get advantages by charging before the enemy do the same, at the same time you are very vulnerable if you advance in disorder. Better I rally my French knight but get another round of arrows or charge in disorder? You are the general ;-)

I believe the Impetus interreptation that Bardolph is incorrect. In Basic Impetus, both units get the Impetus bonus in the first round of combat – it's only 'full' Impetus that gives the Impetus Bonus to the attacker (with the option to counter-charge)

No, they don't. From the author (losart) in response to this question I asked on the Basic Impetus forums:

Impetus. I read the relevant parts several times and only got more confused lol.
Initially we played that only the attacking/charging unit got the Impetus bonus.
Then we decided both units got the Impetus bonus (assuming they are fresh of course)
Upon rereading the rules and some posts here I am now not sure.

His answer:

Impetus
Impetus applies only to the charging Unit. It applies also if you follow up and reach the retreating Unit.

yes Impetus bonus works the same in BI and in Impetus. You get the bonus only if you charge (also following up) while still fresh.

The only difference is that in Impetus you can countercharge. In this case both Units can benefit of the bonus (still if Fresh).

One more question: If my unit is reduced to VBU 1 via combat losses, and it then becomes disordered, does it rout due to the VBU penalty?

No the Unit is routed when VBU drops to 0. The Disorder is to be considered as a temporary malus.
But if your VBU is 1 and you are disordered and in melee, well for the enemy it is enough to make a hit (roll a 6) and you are destroyed even passing the coehsion test.

Can the English rules be amended please? Perhaps a 2009 version? The two rulings above on impetus only to chargers and two disorders only causing a VBU loss if the cohesion test is passed are not present in the rules.

Thanks,
Bevan

There is language in the rules that supports them but obviously they need slight wording changes to be clear to all readers.

"7.4 IMPETUS BONUS
The Impetus bonus is a modifier, or a number of dice, that the charging or counter-charging Unit receives on the first turn of each melee or in any case each time that it re-contacts the enemy after a successful Pursuit. In order to get this bonus the Unit must be Fresh, i.e. must not have taken losses."

"7.6.1 Loss due to Accumulation of Disorder after melee
A Unit that is already Disordered (after movement, firing or melee) and that is Disordered a second time in melee after passing its Cohesion Test also takes a permanent loss to their VBU."

a similar paragraph is present in the shooting chapter.

However, the language in Basic Impetus (latest edition from website, 2008e, CAPS for emphasis) is different and not as helpful:

"The Impetus Bonus is a dice modifier that THE UNIT receives on the first turn of every melee (or in any case every time that it re-contacts the enemy in the case of successful pursuit), as long as they are Fresh.
The bonus is allowed for Mounted . . ." and continues with who specifically gets it. Can cause confusion.

On Disorder,

"Disorder is not cumulative, but if a Unit that is disordered due to movement, receiving fire or after a melee receives a second disorder result due to firing or melee it also takes a permanent hit to its VBU."

6.2 "A Unit is considered DISORDERED even if it passes the test and does not receive any permanent losses." and then

"A Unit that fails the test is Disordered and loses a number of VBU equal to the difference . . ."

Then 7.6:

"A Unit that is already Disordered (due to movement, firing or melee) and that takes a second Disorder after the melee takes a permanent loss to their VBU."

This may mean that a Unit that fails is Disordered if not already Disordered but not Disordered twice, but it's easy to read this as adding Disorder win or lose so if already Disordered a VBU is lost.

Clarifying update would be good.

ah yes BI can be improved and will be in 2009.

I had forwarded you a copy with the changes added back when you answered those questions on the forum. Figured you would simply post the revised copy for now.

I have now revised my copy with the text from the message above in addition to the previous clarifications, would be happy to forward it to you.

do it :-)

"This may mean that a Unit that fails is Disordered if not already Disordered but not Disordered twice, but it's easy to read this as adding Disorder win or lose so if already Disordered a VBU is lost."

But those are not mutually exclusive. As I read the rules, the entire statement above is correct … isn't it?

BI works like Impetus, but the text is less precise.

So this paragraph also works for BI

7.6.1 Loss due to Accumulation of Disorder after melee (shooting)
A Unit that is already Disordered (after movement, firing or melee) and that is Disordered a second time in melee after passing its Cohesion Test also takes a permanent loss to their VBU."

Same for missile fire:

A Unit that is already Disordered (after movement, firing or melee) and that is Disordered a second time while passing the Cohesion Test caused by receiving fire also takes a permanent loss to its VBU.

Simply you get one loss when PASSING the Cohesion Test while in disorder. If you FAIL the Test you apply only the losses determined by the test.

I think something like this would avoid confusion:

Passing a cohesion test causes a disorder result. Failing a cohesion test causes a disorder result (in addition to any die roll-based VBU losses) only if the unit is not already disordered.

On impetus, something like

Impetus Bonus only applies to a charging activated unit or to a pursuing unit.

(Which I think is the current rule)

P.S. If there is a new version 2008f with only clarifications and no rules changes, it would be helpful to notify people on the website that the changes are only clarifications.

Iosart, a couple of examples would serve to clarify this, please?

Mike Snorbens wrote:
"Just to clarify something else: Only units armed with Pikes benefit from having a friendly unit behind them?"

Yup. And then only if the friendly unit is also Pikes. DBA this ain't!
-------------
Or maybe DBA, this is :-)
Pikes are the only troop type which benefit from being two deep in DBA, as well.
Not a surprise – Basic Impetus and DBA are at the same scale.

(DBA also allows some troops to be supported by archers in some circumstances)

the new version of BI will not contain different rules, simply will be improved in the text.

Mike what examples do you need? Do you mean in the rules or here in the forum?

As for Depth in BI also Impetuous foot can benefit from being deeper.

do it :-)

Sorry for the delay, doing it now ;)

I used this text for the disorder/VBU loss issue, from our conversation on the forums, as I found it the clearest statement on the subject

If you fail the Cohesion test then you apply the losses decided by the die. If you pass the test, but you are already disordered then you get 1 loss and keep the disorder

ok, it works :-)

Just wanted to let folks know losart has posted a revised version of the Basic Impetus rules on the Impetus website here:
dadiepiombo.com/basic2.html
Direct link:
PDF link

No changes to the rules, just some clarifications, and some additional graphic examples in the back.

"Mike what examples do you need? Do you mean in the rules or here in the forum?"

I think your clarifications in the text of the latest revision that Bardolph linked to have solved the problem. Thanks, Iosart!

Now that is what I call service! Thank you losart!