"What About MEDIEVAL WARFARE" Topic

Does anyone else feel that Foundry's MEDIEVAL WARFARE is getting left out here ? I have the older copy from Terry Gore and feel that they were very good rules for Medieval. May be that Foundry waited way to long to put their version in print, about 6 or 7 years to late. And when they went to print Field of Glory beat them to the punch. They look very well done,and still no hype here. About 3,00,000 posts ( so far) for FOG and not one for Medieval Warfare.

I'm afraid as a wargamer in several periods I cannot keep up with more than a couple of sets rules for each single period.

I have them but I haven't got my armies sorted out yet. I will be starting with Burgundians and Swiss, then playing around with more after that.
On first inspection the rules look good, the original rules have been around a long time and have obviously been well tried and tested.
The production is first class with fairly clear rules and army lists and basing is non specific although two suggested basing methods are highlighted, combat is by base rather than number of figures and looks to be a very playable game.

baca442,

I helped Terry with rules review & playtesting – if your version is old enough my credit may still be in it although I don't think Foundry retained them.

Terry was a history teacher and writer, and his goal was to have a rules set that was playable, matched reality, and was easy enough to learn, but with enough details to keep it interesting.

I too don't know why it hasn't caught on, and Foundry was late in marketing it, which may mean it remains stagnant. There is an active Yahoo group:

link

Terry's earlier Yahoo group,

link

has become spam central since Terry died, but there is still a lot of material in the files.

I'd recommend giving them a look, reading some of the writeups and discussions and seeing if it would interest you.

JJ Parus

I played them back in the older edition, and they remain my favorite rules for the period. I was hoping that with a new edition they would get the attention they deserved. However, coming out at the same time as FoG they do seem to be lost in the noise. Unfortunate. I too recomend checking them out, and I hope they will continue to get players.

Does anyone else feel that Foundry's MEDIEVAL WARFARE is getting left out here

I recently got my copy thru Amazon ($31.50 and no shipping, you bet) and the rules seem to have a lot to offer.

I like the 1 figure = 1 stand idea as you get an army in 50 figures give or take. I think this aspect of the rules needs to be highlighted. It doesn't need to be a 200 figure type ruleset

While I do not play Medieval Warfare I did get a chance to see it at Cold Wars. It was a very nice looking rules set and the dedication page was a nice touch. I did play Ancient Warfare for a number of years and enjoyed those rules very much.
VR
James Mattes

So how many hours does a typical game of Medieval Warfare take to finish? Not counting set-up and take-down.

I played the Cibitate scenario a couple of times and it was pretty much done in about 4 hours or so. It is a medium sized battle with about 50 stands on a side.

You can get the quick play version at one of the yahoo groups mentioned above and see for yourself if you like it or not. There is even a scenario for Chalons. You can pull out some unit data from there and cobble togther a couple of small armies to figt each other.

I have heard that the new version rules are not as well organized as they should be. I did thumb trhough them at CW this past weekend. The product is every bit as nice looking as FoG. You shouldn't be put off by the hogher price tag though. The book comes with something like 30 army lists. FoG comes with 2.

John

MW takes as long as other similar games. (FOG, WAB, etc.).

I've tried Shattered Lances and find they give a very satisfying game; done in about 3 hours. Mechanisms make sense and the rules support is great. I use them for the El Cid period.

Oggie

I've got it. Haven't had a chance to play it… yet!

I am a long time AW/MW player and Game Master. I still run a game or two of AW at the East Coast Con's (took Cold Wars off this year). And I was also fortunate enough to play the game with Terry himself a couple of times in his tournaments.

One way to put it is that I have been trying to replace Terry's rules for nearly a decade, and I always come back to them. Another way to put it is that they are terribly good at what they are intending to do. And that is to provide a tactical level wargame that is fast to play, gives the player good options, and yet simulates Terry's vision of medieval battle both effectively and consistently. And it does.

Because it working with smaller numbers of troops than a lot of "grand battles" type game, you do get a lot more details, and options for each individual unit, but you are limited in number of orders per turn, plus some troops just don't maneuver well no matter how much attention you lavish on them.

I use AW for representing "smallish" conflicts of around 1-2 Legion in strength, but never a 10 legion sized major battle. The unit scale and ground scale are even a bit smaller in MW. To give you an idea of what this means, a FoG longbow has a range of 4" effective and 6" maximum in the RAW. In MW a longbow has an extreme range of 18", long range of 12", and point blank range of 6". This in 25mm. Note also the similarity to the ranges proposed by some North American FoG gamers (to increase the MU size to 40mm for 25mm's).

Personally, I have found that Terry's rules are the best available for portraying the much more numerous, but less well known battles of Ancient times. For me personally, this is mainly EIR's struggles on the Rhine and Danube frontier, including the first two battles of Tapae (Iron Gates), every punative and defensive action, and the whole 10 year span of the Marcomanni Wars. For the Medieval era, this smaller scale includes the vast bulk of the actual fighting, from what I've read. Although I have only just stepped into the period with Arhur and the Germanic tribes.

Also--speaking as a tournament player, AW/MW is pretty much the best balanced game that I've seen yet, list wise. Anybody can win it, even picts.

So bottom line--these are excellent to fantastic rules, and the best kept secret in the miniatures world, in my opinion.

Shan

I've seen MW advertised by Foundry but can anyone tell me if AW is still available please?

Thanks

IMHO, Medieval Warfare provides a better model for medieval warfare than FOG does. Terry Gore extensively playtested the rules and fine tuned them to reach credible results.

FOG, in contrast, provides a more broadbrush -- one size fits all approach. In contrast, Terry broke his rules into two parts, with subtle differences between them.

If you look on the SAGA Yahoo Group, there is a discussion about modelling Republican Roman tactics and organization. FOG just blows this off saying that it does not deal with that level of detail.

The SAGA rules handle horse archers and horse archer tactics better than any other set of rules I have seen. (In all fairness, I have not played a horse archer battle with FOG, but I see nothing in the rules that replicate these their tactics.)

The SAGA rules' main deficiency is in their marketing. They are not in hobby or game stores. Stores cannot get them through game distributors or book distributors and last I checked, Wargames Foundry does not have a U.S. distributor. A determined retailer could probably get them, but at $50.00 USD a book, it is not going to be worth the brain damage (especially when gamers start complaining about the price). So if you want a copy, you need to get it from the Foundry website.

To make it even more difficult, Foundry does not have the rights to the army list books. Those are still sold by SAGA publishing, and can be difficult to get.

To order Ancient Warfare and armies list:

Sage Publishing
link

MW: got 'em, played 'em, love 'em.

The Foundry rules are beautiful eye candy.

Worth a visit.

Incidentally Saga have confirmed that the other titles in Terry Gore's range are still with them for the present and are available by mail order.

This is my favorites set of WG rules I've found in 20+ years. I play em for ancients through 16th century Samurai.

Great stuff.

see more info about the rules n scenario books here:
theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=133728

Thanks, I am looking at them.

I opted for MW instead of FOG as I think they have more character for the period and are much less complicated. I've played several games of each and enjoyed the MW much more. I'm sure others enjoy their FOG games but my vote is firmly for MW. However I think Wargames Foundry are paying for dargging their heels for so long. Had they been out a year or two earlier then there would be many more people playing them.

Here is some infor reposted from the MW Yahoo Groups page about the differences between the Foundry(New) version of MW and the original version:

For anyone curious about what the Foundry version of MW contains, here
is a first look by Paul. Most of the changes to the rules are
cosmetic such as using ferocious instead of frenzied. The additional
content is much greater than any previous version of the rulebook.

Perry

The Wargame Foundry Publishes Terry Gore's Medieval Warfare
by Paul S. Dobbins

At Long Last!
After a long (long) wait the Foundry's edition of Medieval Warfare
finally shipped in January of 2008. I would have said it was worth the
wait if Terry had lived to see it. Regardless, I believe he saw the
early galleys, knew what they had in mind, and was very pleased if
frustrated with the pace of the process.

Foundry's Medieval Warfare (henceforth MW) is a very impressive
product. Perhaps, overall, it is the best-looking rulebook I have ever
seen. It was clearly laid out with the object of topping the very high
quality Games Workshop routinely achieves with its Warhammer Ancient
Battles series of rules and supplements; my (biased) view is they have
hit their mark.

I really treasure the Foundry edition, both as a tribute to Terry Gore
and the realization of a goal many MW players have pursued for years.
Having said that, my status as an objective reviewer is out the
window. The review that follows are my general comments from quickly
skimming through the book and devouring the great graphics.

If there is a downside, it is the steep price (I spent $52 USD post paid
to Foundry direct). I had preordered the book from Amazon.Com for a
very good price, but they cancelled out with little or no explanation
just prior to the Foundry's releasing the product. Apparently a deal
with the distributor hadn't been worked out, but those of us caught
short smell a rat. It is hoped the matter will be resolved to the
advantage of gamers looking to buy MW (I note at the time I write
this, early February, 2008, that Amazon.UK is still offering an MW
pre-order discount).

Acknowledgments
Terry certainly appreciated and paid his respects to the many people
who helped make MW. His list of acknowledgments follows his brief
designer's notes in the front of the book; many of the usual Saga
suspects may find their names there. Jeff Ball and Bruce Taylor are
given well-deserved additional recognition on the title page; I
believe Perry Gray's name should be on the title page as well (I
penciled his name in on my copy!).

Dedication
Bruce wrote a very nice dedication in honor of Terry, which appears at
the end of the book. I would have placed this at the beginning of the
volume, just after Terry's Designer Notes, but I'm glad to have it. I
think a photo of Terry would have been appropriate as well.

What Can You Tell About A Book By Its Cover Illustration?
What we have is a hardback, large format book with a gorgeous full
color, wrap around front and back illustration by Chris Collingwood of
exceptional quality, depicting a scene from the War of the Roses. I
have not yet spotted any more info on the picture, such as title,
exact subject etc., but it appears we have caught (in the middle
ground) Edward of York in the act of taking a slice at a Warwick
standard bearer. To answer the question, I would seriously consider
buying the book just for the cover.

I have read some opinions questioning whether the binding of MW will
stand up to heavy use. The binding on my copy appears to be sound; I
will treat it with respect and I expect it will hold up for some time.
I wouldn't expect it to perform any worse than a typical WAB
supplement, and they do well by me.

The Presentation of the Rules
MW is comprised of 49 pages of rules (pp 3-51). I am not prepared to
discuss differences between (if any) the last edition of Saga MW I
have and the new Foundry MW. To be honest, I have been playing the
game so long I am unable to actually focus long enough to read with
fresh eyes. MW tournament gamers have always been interested in the
extensions of the basic game, which in the new edition appear in two
chapters following the basic game rules. I note in passing that
Foundry have changed the term "Frenzied" to "Ferocious". I have not
picked up yet whether the concept itself has changed.

Additional Rules for the Experienced Gamer
Optional rules and extensions are included in two chapters,
"Additional Rules etc" and the "Appendices". Much of this material is
old hat for experienced MW players, but there seems to be some modest
changes here and there.

# Rule Comment
1 "Fog of War" Alternative set-up specs, some I've played, others I
haven't
2 The Weather Factor Interesting special rule, new to me
3 Ambushes Standard MW tournament rule
4 Flank Marches Standard MW tournament rule
5 Off Table Reserves Seen it before, but never played it
6 Direct Orders from Generals Otherwise known as the "follow me" rule,
which I've seen more often in Ancient Warfare games
7 Camps Seen it, played it once
8 Mounted Fire When Charging I would have expected this "rule" to be
part of the standard rules package
9 Fire and Flee (Feigned Flight) A rule my Ayyubids live and die by.
Standard MW tournament rule
10 Impetuous Cavalry Charges Standard MW tournament rule
11 Reckless Charges I believe we have tried this rule in tournaments
12 Mounted Breakthrough Standard MW tournament rule
13 Supply for Missile Units Seriously deficient in the Foundry
edition. The explanation of how missile units are re-supplied is
incomplete -- there is no discussion of the "Recover" procedure.
14 Scouting and Intelligence Gathering I have always liked this rule
and played it many time in MW/AW tournaments

Appendices

A Champions, Priests and Holy Men The rule I hate the most! The
notorious "re-roll option". Heroes are too cool, love `em.
B Naval Vessels in Medieval Warfare Never played these through
multiple versions of Saga MW.
C Terrain Generation for Tournament Games Standard stuff for MW
tournament gamers since early in MW's history
D Victory Conditions for Tournament Games Ditto "C"
E Campaigns I don't know if the campaign stuff is new or not, but it
is certainly new to me. Interesting but probably needs more work on
the campaign context.
F How to Avoid a Messy Melee … Ha! Ha! Ha! I love the naïve optimism
of this one! The best way to avoid a messy MW battle is to play poker
instead.

Internal Artwork: Flags, Painting Guide and Herb Gundt
There is a large number and variety of color and black & white
photographs, original and free-ware illustrations, and charts and
diagrams. There is a 16 page section (pp 67-82) of color photos on
slick paper. Some of this material is familiar to readers of
Miniature Wargames or visitors to the Foundry web site. There are two
pages of flags that may be cutout or color-copied and used for your
Viking and Swiss armies. There is an excellent article, "Building a
Medieval House" by Herb Gundt on how to built a nice little thatched
hut, including a template (or as Norm Abrams might say) a "measured
drawing" for all of the components; I'm really tempted to build one of
these babies, especially so as to try my hand at Herb's fake animal
fur trick for simulating thatched roofs. There is the inevitable
article by Kevin Dallimore on the Foundry's 3-color painting system,
which features a step-by-step example of painting a Viking. The
remaining color pages are taken up with glorious photographs of
Foundry figures, painted to the highest standard and displayed in
vignettes with top-of-the-line terrain pieces. The clarity of these
photos, and the quality of the close-ups in particular, surpass any
similar presentations I've seen in other quality rulebooks; there is
none of the murkiness that bedevils the WAB supplements. Peter
Dennis' "special illustrations", black and white, pen and ink drawings
appear to good effect throughout the book.

Scenarios
There are three scenarios included in the rulebook: The Battle of
Thielt (1128), the Battle of Clontarf (1014), and Mortimer's Cross
(1461). The battles pretty much cover the historical range of the MW
rules (although we can go back ca. 600 years further to Late Romans
and Picts). Each scenario has a order of battle, deployment map and
briefing. I would have preferred a little more guidance on the
scenario maps regarding relative (and relevant) distances, but gamers
shouldn't have much trouble sorting things out.

Army Lists
MW includes 17 army lists, including most of the popular beginner
lists as well as the old favorites of the jaded gamers among us. There
is obviously an instant demand for more, and readers should look to
Saga's publications until Foundry follows up later with lists for the
middle east, far east, eastern Europe, etc (I don't have the poop on
Foundry's plans along these lines). The lists are presented in the
familiar Saga MW format, with some additional text and black and white
photos and/or drawing of selected troops or models.

In a chapter called "Medieval Armies in Action -- Generals Speak Out"
there are four articles, two by Terry and one each by Jeff and Bruce,
about building and commanding four of the armies, respectively, the
Anglo-Saxon army of Harold Godwinson, the Normans, a War of the Roses
army, and the Burgundian Ordonnance. I have fought three of these
armies, commanded by the authors, and they certainly know their stuff;
newbies and oldies can benefit by reading and reflecting on the
material (I never faced Terry's Anglo-Saxons, but his Normans and my
Vikings had a grand old time of it once in a tournament; I used the
excellent trick of hunkering my army down around a sacred raven
standard, making them nearly impossible to break, while Terry spent
hours shooting me up with his light infantry bowmen, hoping he'd
produce an opening in the ranks through which his knights could charge
to win the day. I think we played to a draw).

1 Late Roman
2 Huns
3 Arthurian Britons
4 Picts
5 West Sessex Saxon
6 Vikings
7 Gaelic -Viking Alliance
8 Early Normans
9 Conquest Period Saxon
10 Feudal English
11 Feudal French
12 Medieval English
13 Medieval French
14 War of the Roses
15 Swiss
16 Burgundian Ordonnance
17 Late Medieval German and Holy Roman Empire

Tactics, Units and their & Use, and Examples of Play
Pages 134-152 comprise articles and notes that first appeared on the
Saga Publications website and the Saga Newsletter describing tactics
and rules mechanics. This is great stuff, familiar to veterans but
crucial to new players learning the game without experienced hands to
guide them. Years ago I learned the basics of the game by showing up
at a Medieval Warfare tournament -- probably Cold Wars -- and playing
Jeff Ball and Jamie Fish. I had read the rules in advance, but you
really learn by playing (and I'm still learning). The Saga material
in MW provides much of the insight one can otherwise only get through
repeated playing.

Player Aids
 Firing Arc Templates. Theses are simple black and white triangles
for infantry missile fire (at 45 degrees) and artillery (22.5
degrees). They need to be photocopied, mounted on card, etc.
 Quick Reference Sheet. Whew, all you need to know about MW in 4
densely packed pages. I don't like having the tables for the three
different basing schemes packed together on the same sheets, making
them visually cluttered and confusing at first glance. I would
recommend players stick with Saga tables available from the Saga Yahoo
group. Otherwise, I would color photocopy the Foundry tables and cut
out the material you don't need and glue the good stuff on light card.
 Two pages of two-sided game markers. These, too, need to be color
copied, cut out and mounted on card. The iconic markers available
from the Saga Yahoo group are more familiar to me, and I like them
much better, but the Foundry graphics are serviceable.

ugh, monday I checked to see if amazon had these and they did for 31$, now they have 1 copy for 75$. Anyone know if there is another way to get these for a reasonable price?

They are still $31.50 USD on Amazon in the USA:

link

huh, that's really bizarre, must have been looking at the UK site and not noticed. Thanks! I'm now the proud owner of a copy!

Congrats and many happy WotR games to you!

Btw, you can order the Medieval Warfare WotR scenario book here:

sagapublishing.homestead.com/products.html

Enjoy!