"Crusader Ancients Rules - What happened to them?" Topic

I've had an order in with the warweb for quite some time for the rules put out by Crusader Miniature only to find out that they are no longer available. Does this mean that there is a 2nd edition coming out?

Thank you

Can't speak for WarWeb, but:

link

Allen

Ah – thank you much!!

As you're in the US, you might also check with Old Glory to see if they're stocking them. I haven't checked, but as Old Glory do Crusader figures here, they might.

Allen

OG doesn't stock them any more. I got mine 2nd hand here in TMP.

Checking the Crusader Yahoo group (should have done that first!), Mark recommends:

onmilitarymatters.com

Another US poster recommends:

thepanzerdepot.com

Both these posts were from November '07.

Allen

The Crusader rules are still around and there are some left in the US but getting people to restock them is a problem.

The really stupid part about all this is that the rules are too cheap. Even with the 60% discount I offer the profit margin is largely eaten up by the shipping costs to the US.

Who would have thought you could make rules too cheap to sell?

If any enterprising companies are reading this and want to produce the Crusader rules in the US please let me know. If I can sell 1000+ in the UK but only 200+ in the US then I'm guessing there is a large untapped market over there….

Get some enterprising American to take them across in his suitcase.

Here is where I got mine: link

Who'da thunk it? Right down the street from me, no less.

Mark, you may want to prod FRP again.

[Who would have thought you could make rules too cheap to sell?]

I own a book and game store. I can tell you exactly what your problem is.

Old Glory has been selling your rules at a 40% discount. Effectively, the real price of your rules is the cover price less this 40% discount.

When I stock my bookstore, I typically get a 40% discount, on the average, from my suppliers. If I try to compete with Old Glory, I don't make any money on the sale. For me to stock the book, you have to offer me a 40% discount on top of the 40% discount that Old Glory offers, that is, about an 80% discount, so I can compete with Old Glory.

I did pick up a couple copies for sale, but priced them at the full list price. The one or two gamers who looked at them informed me that they could get them from Old Glory with a 40% discount. This was not quite correct, because the gamers in question were not members of the Old Glory army. None-the-less, there was the expectation that they were entitled to a 40% discount -- and that I was not entitled to make any money on the sale.

Right now, I suspect the remaining copy of your rules will moulder on one of my book cases for several years. If and when it sells, I will not restock it.

As a retailer, with a brick and mortar store who has attended shows all over the U.S., I have no intention of hauling around product, paying table fees, hotel bills and other expenses for products that I cannot sell for a profit.

Other retailers I speak to have a similar attitude. Of course if stores won't stock your rules, and dealers will not bring them to shows, they will not be exposed to gamers.

I believe that most rules are purchased on impulse. A gamer buys a set of rules that he sees at a show or on a store shelf, and plays a few games with his friends. If his friends like the rules, they purchase a copy and play them with their friends.

However, to get that first gamer to play the rules, the rules have to be available.

I think this is the number one reason Warhammer Ancients, and to a lesser extent, DBx, have been so successful. Retailers can purchase them through distributors without facing cut-throat competition from people offering deep discounts. By screwing your retailers, you have screwed yourself.

Right now, I would say, the Crusader rules are dead on arrival in the U.S.

"By screwing your retailers, you have screwed yourself."

Errr – I thought that offering the rules at a 60% discount to any trader that wanted them was a pretty good deal personally – and still is as far as I can tell.

Crusader USA got no special deal or offer, the fact is they took a large order from me and paid the same as anyone else would have done. I can't see how I've screwed anyone at all – unless I just missed something?

Well, maybe I have judged the situation too harshly. But there appears to be no interest in the rules.

As is usually the case for me, I make a small initial order for rules, typically one or two copies, and just see if they sell -- or if gamers even bother to look at them. If they don't sell, I don't restock -- and I don't particularly care about the reasons. It seems that you are finding that other retailers are not restocking, as well -- it is fair to assume that if they were moving, these retailers would be restocking.

I don't know what the problem is. The Crusader rules are an attractive set of rules published in a nice slick book. Although I have not played the rules yet (sorry) they appear to have conventional and reasonable game play mechanisms. I don't understand why there would be any resistance to the rules -- other than people sticking with what they know.

However, it seems that new rules often have a hard time gaining acceptance. The rules which are distributed through the conventional distribution network (WAB, DBx and soon to be released, Fields of Glory) have an easier time.

My impression is that the ancient rules market has been flooded in the past year with the Crusader Rules, Ancient & Medieval Wargaming, DBMM, Medieval Warfare and Fields of Glory -- and probably some I have missed. I think most gamers tend to settle on one, maybe two, sets of rules and then pretty much ignore any new set being released.

That could well be a part of it, not having produced the army lists yet is another point I'm sure – something that is being addressed at the moment.

As I say I have sold so many in the UK compared to the US – where if population is anything to go by there should be 5 times as many gamers. It's this that brings me to the conclusion that the price and shipping is the answer – whereas over in the UK I can offer distributors large discounts and free shipping (I just deliver them). With the US you need to buy 100 copies before the international shipping gets to a level where it isn't such a large % of the profit margin – in fact at 100 copies the price actually looks pretty good but not many retailers want that many!

Anyway, I'm selling these rules at cost – when I have sold all of them I break even so I'm really not trying to screw anyone – I think I just misjudged things.

[in fact at 100 copies the price actually looks pretty good but not many retailers want that many!]

I think most retailers want only 1 or 2 copies. They will then watch to see if the rules sell. (Believe me, most retailers know very well what is selling and what is not.) I cannot think of any retailer who will buy 100 copies at once. That is the purpose of a distributor -- they break bulk.

I think part of your problem is that your distributor was also competing against potential retailers by offering a 40% discount. No store is going to want to stock rules against that sort of competition.

Additionally, there are not that many historical gamers. The largest club in the Denver area has somewhere around 60 gamers. Of that, approximately one third, play ancients. So, in that group you have 20 potential sales.

I brought the rules to several club meetings and prominently displayed them (typically I would bring approximately a dozen items to club meetings). There were absolutely no sales of the rules; only one gamer expressed interest, and wanted a 40% discount.

Other rules fared better, like WAB, Legends of the West and the Warfare (SAGA) rules. Other rules didn't sell either.

I do see a problem when you bring an attractive set of rules to a large group of historical gamers and they demonstrate no interest.

I don't think doing demonstrations really helps the rules that much. While I did not do a demonstration of your rules, I have done demonstrations of other rules, most notably computer moderated rules, and it really has not helped sales. Even at large shows like Little Wars, sales are not that impressive. Books do much better.

By the way, a low price can work against you.

I have found that it does not enhance sales. If someone wants a set of rules, particularly one that is not easily available, they will pay for it. By only taking one copy to a show, I have seriously limited availability. I would rather sell one copy at full price than four copies at a 20% discount.

Consider that space at most major U.S. shows is quite expensive -- typically $2.00 USD per linear inch. Add to that travel and motel expenses. A dealer has to maximize every inch of space. The same is true for brick and mortar stores to a lesser extent.

The most obvious ways are to go vertical, with folding bookshelves, or to display things like books spine out rather than face out. Displaying things like books and rules face out enhances sales of that item, but it comes at a cost. A set of rules typically takes up 8 to 9 linear inches. That is, I could easily display 8 or 9 books in the space required to display a set of rules face out.

That means that the margin I receive on the book has to justify that expenditure of space. If it's too cheap, my margin is too low. I would rather display a $100.00 USD book face out than a $10.00 USD book. (Assuming I am not getting a short discount on that $100.00 USD book.)

I do have some racks which allow for an efficient face out display of rules, but again, every book or set of rules has to pay for its space.

I think your last post pretty much answered my 'Who would have thought you could make rules too cheap to sell?' question :-)