"Best Rules System for Modern Horror/Sci-Fi Skirmish Combat?" Topic

I like my 'We Can Be Heroes' as I am really enjoying its light hearted and fun nature. Roleplaying the characters as you play is a great way to socialise.

G of TFP

Killzone.

Old grenadier game. Free on the net. Supporting yahob group (with many extra rules in the files).

Chain Reaction2 (1/2 price at mo), excellent fun

I think that horror and near-future SF have different requirements. Unlike SF skirmish, horror rules need to emphasise the effects of being horrified - which is not something that dedicated horror rules like Vampire Wars, Final Days or Rippers seem to cover. Call of Cthulhu does, of course, if you use its combat system for mini gaming.

Unless, of course, you're thinking of SF horror of the Aliens stripe.

I'd say horror and scifi need different sets of rules as they play very different. Generally scifi is played at some range as everybody ha a big gun whist horror is more close combat orientated.

Apart fromt his the two games in the list don't make a comprehensive list of rules available and I have to admit I don't even know War Engine, who makes this?

I'd like to see a longer list, here's some more as far as I can remember the names:

Chain Reaction,
War Engine,
Street Violence,
Shock Force,
Combat Zone/Kill Zone (pretty simillar),
Chris Peers Future Wars,
"We can be heroes",
Excaliburs Fearless (nice for horror with very few figures I'd say),
Necromunda (it's GW but it should belong to the list).

I'm sure I forgot some.

For Sci Fi I'm surpised noone has mentioned Stargrunt II, one of the finest modern skirmish sets available.

I also still have a fondness for the 'Striker' supplement to Traveller, although it is a bit 1980s compared to modern rulesets.

Martin

The thing with horror is its more a roleplay concept than a wargaming one.

G

I would prefer Level 1.2. It's another Kill Zone clone but it's only in German.

I'd have to second Mr G for "We Can be Heroes" and also Martin for Stargrunt. These two sets of rules are at different scales of fighting even if both are "skirmish" rules. WCBH really gives that Kelly's Heroes or Dirty Dozen kind of action but Stargrunt really gives a good feel for a Platoon Commander view of a contact!
I might add that WCBH achieves what GW's Inquisitor rules should have done without the over engineering!

Haven't played either option

Ken

Well I prefer Babylon's Burning - but then I wrote it so I'm biased!

The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay combat system works great for very small skirmishes and horror stuff.

I know its GW, but it is a really good detailed system.

I've gotta go with Necromunda, personally- probably my favorite skirmish rules set, and I don't care if GW made it or not. With a bit of tweaking and some chart rewriting, it's pretty much adaptable to anything, in my experience, has a fun nd unpredictable advancement system, and just does what it's meant to do both well, and elegantly.

My $.02.

- Monk

I thought this was more a question of a "generic" rules set.
Stargrunt is an excellent game, but more realistic. Haven't read We can be Heroes, but I'd say Chain Rx 2.0 covers all the genres pretty well.

Thanx Gang, keep `em come`n.

I really am going to make the best damn sci-fi horror game around you know...but I need a little help.

BME

NURSE !!!

HE'S OUT OF BED AGAIN !!!!

I haven't found any single horror skirmish game that can capture the flavor of different horrors well. I think the very nature of the type of horror being dealt with prevents any single game from doing it well. For instance, I have a home made zombie skirmish game, but if I plug in werewolves, giant spiders, or rats, it totally loses the flavor. It still works as a skirmish game, but not as a horror skirmish game.

I would have used Shockforce/WarEngine as the poll choice rather than just WarEngine. There are people who have heard of or have played Shockforce who do not know they are the same as WarEngine, which is the game mechanic portion of the rules.

I agree with Cmdr G. Horror is a genre that requires a little more player interaction than most wargames can provide. That's why I prefer using Savage Worlds for RPG since the rules are designed to be used for both RPG and Wargaming.

BTW, I just picked up CH 2 and I'm looking it over now.

Velbor

That was the funniest darn comment I've heard all week!

Oh and Rippers for me

rgds

Upright

Well I played a game of Starslayer: Genesis (to be updated and improved under the name Defiance: Vital Ground) wherein I took my sci-fi marines (Legions of Steel UNE) and defended an outpost against a mate's WHFB Vampire Counts (Undead). I guestimated about a 2.5:1 points ratio in his favour due to being outgunned and attacking a defensible position. (I was using a playtest version of the Defiance troop builder to create stats for the undead horde.)

I was wrong. You see, Starslayer is built around MORALE. Troopers, squads and your entire army react to enemy fire, being charged (especially by big things :) ), and taking casualties. His plethora of Terror attacks and his Vampire Count (large size due to his horse, of course) tore my army's morale to shreds. Men cowered and broke beyond any hope of recovery, and got ripped up in close combat because they were to busy filling their powered armour trousers to shoot at the foe. Meanwhile the undead morale was set in such a manner as to ensure they were never pinned down- I was getting outmanouvred by zombies!- and they were virtually immune to the squad-breaking effects of mounting casualties. Then my squads started fleeing, and I called the game.

In short, if horror is about fear and panic, grab an old copy of Starslayer: Genesis or better yet wait around a while more and snap up Defiance: Vital Ground. Demian Rose built this superb, fast playing game around morale. And the new addition has "Genre Rules" that give you additional options for tweaking the game to suit Horror scenarios.

While you may not get to experiance the fear for yourself, you will certainly get a chance to see what overwhelming terror does to your poor, bloody infantry.

I have been using Kill Zone, but I just got Chain Reaction 2 and it looks pretty good.

What's with this poll. With only two titles to choose from, it seems more like a promotion than a poll.

I go with WARZONE.

I don't think there are any good specific horror rules available at the moment. BME, here's your chance to shine! give us the horror game we've all been waiting for.

Rippers (or Savage Worlds Showdown) and WCBH are in my opinion some of the best rules because they are generic; second on my list are Necromunda (including the special actions from NecMag) and some free skirmish sets (foundry´s streetviolence)

Well, to toot my own horn, I think Send More Brians is pretty good. There's fear and panic built in for the characters plus the apprehension a player can feel due to limited ammo. Check it out:

link

The template and chit pdfs are a little wonky right now, but that'll be fixed sometime today/tonight.

Keep in mind, the game tries to capture the feel and mood of zombie movies, not be a simulation of "counter-undead tactical operations."

I am out of more than my bed, hell I`m even seated at my WORK desk.

Well one of my three desk in my studio.

:)

I have a consol for my com stat, and a sculpting desk and a painting desk.

LOL...look out world, this time I have the final say over what gets done, and when it gets released, there are no partners to screw me up!

Great replies to this topic/poll thus far...

I am writing it all down, well most of it anyway.

:)

BME

Trinity Battle Ground.
The system is based on White Wolf's Horror games so if you know the RPG rules, the TBG rules are pretty simple.
Essentially, the rules are all about heroes, so each player controls just a few major characters. In fact TBG would make a great superhero game, too. It's very flexible for small actions.
We ran a game called Vampire Hunter Gothic (we used the present day as a setting) and a game based on the Matrix using these rules. We always wondered why White Wolf didn't use the system as a vampire table top game.

I'll second smokingwreckage, Starslayer is very adaptable. It's also due for a new, upgraded edition very soon, complete with a name change (to Defiance, IIRC) to dodge a possible legal tangle. Stargrunt's good too, but the lack of an official point system is a problem for too many people.

Is War Machine technically "on the market" at this point? It's a good game, but I thought it was out of print. Have I missed an update?

Starslayer does morale better, anyway. :)

Rich

Savage Worlds handles this genre and others very well and is better than most.

jonpaul: Send More Brains is based on T:BG. Great, fast system.

This poll needed more options.

Yep, it sure does. I think the issue with it is that I for one don't even know what's out there when it comes to rules. Maybe BME is in the same boat.
Glad to read the thread as it gives me an idea that there are other options out there.
Ed

Where can I find the We Can Be Heroes ruleset?
Kevin

What you said ED.

I do not play every tiny game out there, in fact I know of only about six games in the world, which I have actually played often enough to know their mechanics.

(40K/Necromunda/Mordhiem/Battle Tech/The various D&D`s/Rifts)

I am not a huge gamer, rather I am a big teller of stories, and a creator of art works.

I know there are a lot of games out there, but I do not play them, and I have only heard talk of them.

Probally why I had Bill run this poll for me...you think?

LOL!

BME

I've got to go with Savage Worlds myself.

KillZone or Stargrunt II

Kevin,

try taskforceproductions.com/heroes
for We can be heroes

Although StarGrunt is a *great* game, I don't consider it to be a "skirmish" level game. By my interpretation, skirmish games are at the individual level. By this I mean the lowest level of maneuver is an individual. Since StarGrunt's lowest level of maneuver is the squad/team, this falls outside the realm of skirmish. Additionally, I find skirmish games to be more character driven.

I would say warzone. The rules are great, and I believe easlily adapted to anything.

J.D.Arnold, I stand corrected about SG2 :-)

I voted for "other" as well, since lately I've been partial to Savage Worlds skirmish using morale rules from the original rulebook, not the Showdown rules. I like the possibility of running for the hills if you break instead of just becoming shaken.

Oh, and in another departure from the showdown rules, when playing survival horror I also count ammo and allow for double taps and such. It's much more fun to watch people run out of ammo than the usual unlimited supply of ammo in most miniatures games. :)

My vote is for fallout and whats more they're free if you know where to find them.

http://fallout-rpg.narod.ru/Warfare.html

pete@freewargamesrules.co.uk

This poll is badly written. Why only two choices?

I prefer my own rules. Still a WIP.

I agree w/ JDArnold re: SG2 - It's a tactical simulation.
I like Warzone and it might work, but CR2.0 seems designed to accomodate all types and minis. Warzone, while excellent, is geared for their specific universe.

I have Babylon's Burning and Combat Zone, but I'm not familiar enough with them to give an intelligent answer.

My vote's still with CR2.0!

Horror requires that the target imagine terrible consequences. Horror also requires that the target is forced into a situation against their better judgement. Horror can come in many forms. A hunted house, having to explore tunnels filled with Viet Cong, or going onboard a Space Hulk(tm) and facing down the Genestealers(tm).

The counter to horror is rational thinking. The rational mind feeds off of information. The more you know the less horrifying a situation becomes and the more you are able to deal with it. As information decreases you have to fill in the blanks and often times the pessemistic mind comes up with the worst-case scenarios. As we see in horror movies the people who don't think pessemistically often end up horribly dead. "You people are crazy! I am going to go off alone across the field to the barn and see if I can find a can of gasoline." -- words of the guy everyone knows will die first. (kudos to GROS).

Also a sense of powerlessness also helps create a horror frame of mind. Limited ammo. Only certain weapons work against the creature. You start out with no weapons. Etc.

OK, so how do you do this? Space Hulk did it by having the Genestealers represented by blips. It could be a false signal or it could be bunches of bad bugs! Thats a good mechanic. Another mechanic in a game without a GM is to have a system of cards that define creatures and situations in which they can attack. You don't know what is around the corner until you flip the card. It might be nothing or it might be something really really bad. Example a card might say VAMPIRE: play on the figure furthest back from the lead figure. So you could have the party activate one figure at a time, with one of them triggering the card draw, but its the unlucky sap in the back who gets wacked!

A GM'd game with the GM playing the monsters and the players all trying to win the situation can be either the most interesting or the worst game you've ever played.

There is a DOOM 3 game coming out soon. I am sure that will have some very interesting elements in it.

I don't think the two games in the poll can carry this type of gaming as is. Certainly you could write additional rules for them.

Just my 2 cents. Not sure what that is in Euros!

Maybe this topic should be split in "best horror" & "best sci-fi". I mean, there's no way games like stargrunt or street violence can be considered a great horror games, no matter how good some believe they are as sci-fi.

@Corp Commander: many of the mechanisms you mention are incorporated in Twilight Creations' figure/board game hybrid "When Darkness Comes"