"Japan Hops Onto An Asteroid" Topic

Japan's MINERVA mission to land on an asteroid has succeeded, deploying two "hopping" rovers today. (A larger German rover named MASCOT will deploy next month.) link

Way to go, Japan! It's a very hoppy event!

Wow! Go, Japan, go!

Dan
PS. Maybe they'll find a way to start mining asteroids sooner rather than later.

Very cool. Even after reading this:

link

I can't figure out how these things move. I assume they must cling to the surface so they don't just float off into space.

Hey Dan, as for mining Ryugu and other such asteroids, there is already a group ranking them in order of exploitable contents:

asterank.com

Very cool, let's just hope they don't awaken space Godzilla.

Bowman

That asterank is a fantastic link. Thanks!

Dan

Dan, how about you and I get the rights to asteroid Anteros? We'll split the $1.25 USD trillion profit!

That would really be something … for our beneficiaries.

Dan

Well, mostly the government.

Dan

For resource-restricted nations, could be a boon -
but a few decades (or more) off, of course.

That's only if that registry is really taken seriously in courts.

I kinda like the old system. Whichever countries bothered to actually invest and build up the best navies in the first place … got what they found on those waters.

Dan

I kinda like the old system.

But that would cause troubles for all involved. It would create a greater disparity between the Haves and the Have-nots and that leads to many issues.

Here is a Wiki overview, just in case of insomnia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_law

Beyond making sure that all humanity benefits from the resources in outer space, it is also the agreement to the peaceful exploitation of these resources. Lofty ideals indeed.

But you are right Dan. Our respective governments won't let us just split the $1.25 USD trillion. Would we be in the 99.99999% tax bracket? Better tax lawyer up, buddy.

Yeah. A very good lawyer. Once again, excessive taxation ("redistribution of wealth") undermines and stifles incentive.

That "new system" sounds a lot like today's kiddie games, where everyone gets a trophy, even if those countries don't really invest any of their own time, money/resources* or effort. They don't even have to show up in space (or at any point in the development process, except to collect the check) and they still get a piece of the action? Sorry, not for me.

Dan
* Now, if they contributed a good amount of their mining resources (or other natural resources) to the project, without later complaining about being robbed by capitalist imperialists, then that would be a different situation.

Actually, reading through the various links(abeit quickly, because I do have a life) it appears the only REAL Treaty is the Outer Space Treay of 1967. And this is only an agreement of principals not a binding Treaty with any enforcement provisions.
The Moon Agreement has not been ratified by any of the space capable nations.
So, those that can and do, will reap the benefits of their efforts in the development of extra-terrestrial resources.

Dave

*Does this help Dan?

That "new system" sounds a lot like today's kiddie games, where everyone gets a trophy……

I was thinking more along other lines. In the 70's satellites were very expensive things and only the richest countries could afford to have them. Far seeing groups wanted to reserve some orbital space for the developing nations. In the 80's and 90's universities began training third world scientists in satellite technology. The developing countries are still now buying rocket time and launching their satellites. This way they can develop modern communications, develop remote sensing for agriculture, help in education in far flung town and villages, many things to help these countries raise their standards of living.

And all because some far sighted individuals sought to reserve some space in space for them.

No one is saying that Liberia or Ethiopia should get first crack at Anteros. That belongs to Dan and myself. Leave your grubby hands off of it!

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
Whoever gets there DOES own it, because who's gonna be able to be establish otherwise?

It's like claiming you own an island when you don't have a boat to reach it. Maybe you do on a piece of paper somewhere, but meanwhile whoever sails there gets to enjoy the beach.

Well, something has definitely stifled all legal salvage at sea. And I don't think it's the lack of technology any longer.

My bet is that it is the huge chunk that "authorities" demand for themselves, for their "redistribution of wealth" to the people schemes, even in what should officially be international waters. Too many people want a share in what you invested so much time, mental and physical energy and money in to discover and retrieve. Even after you have gone through all the proper permits and local legal and environmental requirements, the extorting governmental (local and international) third parties will take you to court and draw it out for years – decades if need be -, while they hold your salvaged goods as ransom. The vulture-like officials and lawyers will make a killing of course. They thrive on making things more complicated than they should be and in tying things up in their bureaucracy.

"Typically, the salvage award is approximately 10 -25% of the total value of property that the salvor recovers."
link

So, seriously, what's the point of taking the initiative in starting new enterprises? The "new system" of taking and redistributing money to those who didn't do squat for it sucks.

And so, those riches either stay where they are, corroding for all time, or the officials leak the location and illegal salvage crews* swoop in and take it all for themselves. And they sometimes destroy countless reefs in the process and completely disregard the importance of documenting the historical context of their findings.

Dan
* Ironically, usually by local pirates who don't care one bit for the conservation of their resources or recording/preserving their history.

Possession is 9/10ths of the law.
Whoever gets there DOES own it, because who's gonna be able to be establish otherwise?

It's like claiming you own an island when you don't have a boat to reach it.

I think you are missing my point. It's more like letting the poor guy who doesn't have a boat know he has access to any of the resources you claim on your island. I'm NOT saying he is entitled to the resources for free. He can buy the goods. I thought my satellite analogy made that clear. It's the setting up of a system whereby access is available to all. Like I said, lofty ideals.

From the Outer Space Treaty:

"Recognizing the common interest of all mankind in the progress of the exploration and use of outer space for peaceful purposes,

Believing that the exploration and use of outer space should be carried on for the benefit of all peoples irrespective of the degree of their economic or scientific development,

state.gov/t/isn/5181.htm

Don't worry, the wealthy will still get even more wealthy.

Don't worry, the wealthy will still get even more wealthy.

I was almost agreeing with your point until you stuck in that bit of insulting, sloganistic crap.

By the way, in socialism (as in aristocratism, which works out to be the same thing), the wealthy ALWAYS get more wealthy. too. The difference is, they sink all the other boats and starve the crews. (North Korea, Venezuela, USSR, Cuba, Cambodia, Vietnam…) "From each according to his ability"="Everyone must work as hard as we say they must;" "To each according to his need"="Everyone only receives the minimal to survive." And the "state" (that is, "those in charge") gets the rest. The other name for this system is "slavery." (The slave must work to his full ability, he receives only the minimal to survive, and the slave owner gets the rest.)

But, yes, of course space exploration benefits everyone. That's an incredibly "duh" moment that only isolationists and the most rabid socialists don't seem to get. But it benefits everyone because free market trade benefits everyone through the process of offering more resources and goods to everyone. People work to earn what they want, not just what someone else arbitrarily decides they "need," and as they purchase what they want, they create opportunities for others to work to produce these things. That's how an economy works, and it works very well for all concerned, or at least all who are willing and able to work. After all, we're not concerned about the man across the street. He has a job; he earns a living (his need) and buys his wants, too. We're supposedly concerned about the man in the street, who has no job and doesn't earn either his needs or his wants. But the last clause of that sentence tells us both the cause and the solution for our concern— get the man a JOB. And a vibrant, growing economy with increasing goods and services and the increasing demand for the same, does that!

Q. You know what's actually MORE compassionate than "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?"
A. "If a man does not work, then he does not eat."
The latter tells the man that his solution is in his own hands; work, and eat.

So the goal should be to create a society where every man and woman has the opportunity to work as hard as he and she can to achieve both their needs and their desires, with these limited only by the limits of their own efforts.
Space exploration and space exploitation allows for this. It creates opportunity and jobs at every level. It demands men and women of intelligence, skill and dedication, and thus demands a society and economic situation capable of supporting and creating such men and women. It demands good schools. It demands safe streets. It demands comfortable housing. It even demands luxury goods and services for the necessary downtime for everyone involved, both as a reward and as simply what ever each person defines as "a good life." And it does all this naturally, through simple, everyday, human economics. And, in the meantime, it creates things: new developments in energy technology (space requires power); new developments in safety and medicine (space is dangerous and deadly; to stay alive, we most understand better how to do so and create ways to do so— ancillary benefits are inevitable); new concepts for art and leisure and entertainment; and always new knowledge, which inevitablly leads to new discoveries with unknown benefits. And it creates a society that embraces intelligence, education, knowledge, and dreams. And you know what? It also creates the opportunity for a generous society where each person's individual compassion will draw them to provide for those who actually cannot work.

So, yes, everyone gets wealthier; that's how an economy works. And that's not just a slogan spouted by a bunch of mask-wearing hooligans throwing rocks through windows because they're too ignorant (and too well-fed) to realize just how foolish their ideas and actions really are.

In the end why should we care if the wealthy get wealthier? It does me no harm if you have more than I, as long as I have the opportunity to acquire what I desire. It also does me know good if you suddenly have less; in fact, it hurts me, as you are undoubtably using your excess to purchase what you desire, which gives me opportunity to sell it to you! If you have less, I have less opportunity. That's a situation which would be stupid of me to wish.

Geez, I was a little too ticked when I wrote that. Guess I've had it up to (and above) "here" with all the slogan-shouting emotional nonsense that currently passes for "discussion" in my nation (from both sides). Sorry. Don't want to derail my own thread.

Back to the cool space news:
link

Check out the frame-by-frame video of the "day" progressing on the asteroid!

New "vacation pics" from the holiday on Ryugu:

link
link

Mining in almost zero G is gonna be fun!

Dan