"Winnie Mandela Dead" Topic

Maybe the Editor will allow another exception here, for those wanting to express various other feelings?

All I can say is that I pray for all the poor souls who disagreed with her and her husband's methods, and who became targets for their "Spear of the Nation" (and the "Mandela United Football Club") mobs after ‘61.

Hundreds were murdered by necklacing alone, not to mention their other methods:

link

Including the young kids who didn't meet her expectations:

link
link

Dan

I will light a tire in her memory

Another mass killer dies. The world has become a better place.

Godspeed to her final destination.

Communist always seems to devolve into mass murder.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

I simply do not understand how they have been allowed to sweep under the rug the promotion of that level of widespread cruelty and mob "justice" occurring in modern times.

How many films have been released about the Mandelas? Did any of them show Winnie telling her people to do the necklacing of "informants"? Did any of the films have him condemning such violence? I personally don't know of any.

And modern mainstream documentaries of the Mandelas rarely mention it at all or, when they do they make it look as though the widespread cruelty against fellow Africans occurred without their knowledge, direction or ability to control.

Dan

For that we would have to move this over to The Blue Fez.

I seem to remember a DH or two when one of the Serbian war criminals died and his obituary on TMP generated some … unfavorable comments.
Try Ultramodern instead. Obituary is for bland and non controversial comments, much like when Eamon deValera sent condolences to Germany when Hitler died.
I don't disagree with any of the above comments, but the proprieties must be observed.

Yep, she's dead.

I simply do not understand how they have been allowed to sweep under the rug the promotion of that level of widespread cruelty and mob "justice" occurring in modern times.

How many films have been released about the Mandelas? Did any of them show Winnie telling her people to do the necklacing of "informants"? Did any of the films have him condemning such violence? I personally don't know of any.

How many films are sympathetic to Vichy France collaborators or more inflammatory tell the "side" of the Einsatzgruppen saving the world by getting rid of the untermensch?

Sometimes a African freedom fighter is a white supremacist's terrorist…

Martin: "How many films are sympathetic to Vichy France collaborators or more inflammatory tell the "side" of the Einsatzgruppen saving the world by getting rid of the untermensch?
Sometimes a African freedom fighter is a white supremacist's terrorist…"

Are you aware that most of her necklacing victims were fellow black Africans who simply wanted a more peaceful path to freedom?

And, if you mean films made in the 40s, while the facts about the war were just coming in, well, there's no comparison. The two events are separated by several decades. And even now that the world has had plenty of time to examine the real facts about Winnie, they still feel the need to sanitize the facts and make her into a hero.

So, if you're ok with the films done about Winnie, using the old WW2 films as justification, does that mean that you are ok with those too? Or are those older "liberties" taken by Hollywood more reprehensible than much more recent ones, at a time when we should know better?

Dan

Are you aware that most of her necklacing victims were fellow black Africans?

Yes.

And the Résistance were kind to colaborateurs (such as Millice members) that ended up in their hands?

The world had plenty of time to examine the real facts about Winnie, but they felt the need to make her into a hero.

Of course she's a despicable person from the point of view of fans of the status quo in South Africa c.1980, and those wishing to go back to Jim Crow and Antebellum South… But name me a revolution against a race-based government with totally clean hands.

Martin: "But name me a revolution against a race-based government with totally clean hands."

There's a big difference between a collaborator with a foreign invader and someone who wants to resolve domestic political differences and gain freedom through more civilized and less violent means than previous generations had*. She just wanted the fast violent road. They wanted a newer and more enlightened approach, and not follow the examples of the past or those of neighboring countries.

That and the fact that she saw some of the moderate ones as rivals of Mandela (and hers), and she couldn't have none of that.

"Of course she's a despicable person from the point of view of fans of the status quo in South Africa c.1980, and those wishing to go back to Jim Crow and Antebellum South"

Is that what you are saying I am? Or is it just easier for you to lump everyone on that racist supremacist basket?

(NOTE: By the way, can you please answer the questions in the last paragraph of the last post, before we get derailed into a different subject? Thanks)

Dan
* People who were equally oppressed but who wanted to change "a race-based government" without hands full of blood, via greater international pressure and awareness, and via peaceful protests.

Gentlemen. This IS the Obituary Page.

I don't know if it's in the FAQ, but the tradition of the Obituary Page is "de mortuis nil nisi bonum."
Carry on over to Ultramodern or Blue Fez and you should be fine.

Winston

Did you forget about your special dispensation on Manson?

TMP link
TMP link

There are many strange people in the world (the Weathermen "prairie fire" types) who call him some sort of revolutionary, just for killing rich people.

But, despite all the potential controversy, your topic was spot on and didn't have to be moved elsewhere.

Dan

Some incredibly unpleasant posts on this thread. People seem to want to view others in very polarized terms…just maybe people can do both good and bad things in their lifetimes.

For all her failings Winnie Mandela was a central, inspiring figure in the struggle in SA… Amandla!!

Red: "For all her failings Winnie Mandela was a central, inspiring figure in the struggle in SA"

Indeed. When you get rid of the competition (the moderate non-violent black leaders) you quickly become the central figure.

By the way, the words uttered here are exceptionally mild compared to the testimony and photos of the few people who actually survived their "necklacing" (it took the average victim 20 minutes for the flames of the gasoline laden tires to finally kill them and cease their agonized screams).

I feel for them and for the thousands who lost loved ones on both sides. Both sides did vile cruel things, and just as what one side did is regularly exposed, so should the other. Not buried or whitewashed or left out intentionally (to be forgotten).

Dan
PS. It wasn't until just recently that the Mandelas, their gangs of executioners and the ANC as a whole finally stopped singing their polarizing genocide-inciting anthem, "Shoot the Boer" … long after their struggle was won:
link
Maybe now the healing can finally begin.

As often said, One's freedom fighter is another's terrorist. E.g. American Patriots vs. Red Coats and their Hessian Mercs.

Very rarely do revolutions come about without bloodshed, yes ?

And in many cases revolutions evolve or devolve into an insurgency/guerilla warfare. Neither are pretty, as is any type of conflict/warfare. Major changes usually come about with blood being spilled. Frequently a lot of it. Sad or not … that is reality, AFAIK …

To many on this list it appears, from the content of their posts, that any means justifies the end as long as it fits their political views.

This is a very dangerous road to head down. It puts them in the same group as their fellow travelers(lenin, stalin, mao, pol pot, hitler, eichmann, ben laden, etc).

I'll let you talk about non-violent actions when you've lived through generations of murder and torture.

To counter .
link

Fighting the Nazis, or the British, or the Americans in open warfare and abiding by the rules of warfare common at the time is a lot different from the torture murder of prisoners.

Necklacing someone is a torture murder, no matter their color, religion, race, creed, or politics.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

I'll let you talk about non-violent actions when you've lived through generations of murder and torture.

I'm not sure who on TMP are being referred to ? I'm guessing it's just a general identifier ?

No matter, regardless of what any nation, group, religion, ethnicity, tribe, clan, etc., did in the past, good or bad, it is history. Even if it happened yesterday. The "trick" is to learn from the past and don't let the "negative" events/incidents, etc., happen again. But as we see this is very much easier said than done. E.g. Didn't some one say something to the affects, after the Nuremburg trials, "Never Again !" ? But again as we see that was an empty hope/wish.

Someone broke forum rules, and their post has been redacted.

Follow-on comments have been removed or redacted, as is normal forum practice.

May God have mercy on her soul.

He won't but she will have a warm welcome on where she is going.

NEWS FLASH! She's still dead!

A far far better…..

I know some of her henchmen have been prosecuted in recent years. Did any of them ever serve time for the killings of the people she targeted?

Also, I went to various sources for a better number of victims her enforcers killed by necklacing. The figures vary widely, and some of the data didn't get compiled and released until some of the media finally* pushed for statistics.

But, just to give you an idea, the most conservative estimate for the 4 years (1982 to 1985) with the highest number of blacks burned alive by her "Mandela United Football Club" gasoline tire necklaces calculated an average of 244 burn victims per month. So, just for the four peak years they chose to publish, the most conservative estimates showed that over 11,000 black Africans were killed by that brutal method. Many more were mutilated, beaten and stabbed to death, or had their throats cut.

I just can't get out of my head how someone could cheer on the live burning of a human being – of her own people! -, much less call for more and more of those mob "justice" executions to take place. And Nelson Mandela refused to denounce the violence either, which might have gotten him released much sooner. When he finally came out of prison he went around calling her a brave hero.

The accounts I read really reminded me of the public burnings of "witches" and heretics during the Medieval Renaissance period. The truly disgusting thing is that the executions by burning that Winnie Mandela ordered happened just a few decades ago. That is absolutely vile. Numerically speaking, the Mandela necklace killings make the few live burnings committed by ISIS (less than 200) seem minor by comparison.

"Archbishop Desmond Tutu once famously saved a near victim of necklacing when he rushed into a large gathered crowd and threw his arms around a man accused of being a police informant, who was about to be killed. Tutu's actions, which were caught on film, caused the crowd to release the man."
link

I'm sure there are lots of black South Africans who lost loves ones in that way, and who will always feel very differently about the Mandelas from what today's media and politicians would have them think.

Dan
* For years the media was only interested in reporting about the people that the government had tortured or killed.

As to generations of torture and murder, an article notes that during the years of apartheid life expectancies increased from 34 years to 64 years for black South Africans and infant mortality was cut by 2/3s. Better statistics than any other African country.

It is also noted that the security forces accounted for approximately 5-6 percent of the deaths attributed to political violence – the remainder being black on black killings between the rival factions or killings of police or other 'supporters' of the white government. It was pointed out that the necklacing of government supporters led to increased brutality in their methods by the security forces.

There is a difference between resistance and terrorism and necklacing is terrorism.