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"I'm tired of small minded idiots" Topic


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Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 12:01 p.m. PST

What is it about the internet that attracts so many samll minded, willfully ignorant, Bleeped text-heads? Just want once I would like to go a day where I can read The Miniatures Page and not seeing someone posting some sort of asinine comment that displays either their ignorance of a subject, or their prejudice of people different than themselves, or their complete lack of courtesy, or their lack of common sense, or their lack of all of the above.

I have never condoned violence as a means to resolve discourse, but I'm getting close……

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2018 12:35 p.m. PST

Damn peasants! How dare they have an opinion!

Dan

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 3:48 p.m. PST

Dan, you do like sarcasm don't you. But I think you did not get my meaning or perhaps chose to ignore it. An informed opinion is good and being able to put your opinion in a lucid argument is vital. My pet peeve is when some muppet make some idiotic over-arching statement without having the slightest idea of what they are talking about. you yourself have called people out for the same thing. I will always welcome an opposing opinion when it is thought out and formed after knowing the facts or at least a reasonable awareness of the facts. I in fact enjoy a good intelligent discussion of opposing view opinions. Perhaps my expectations are too high, but I expect an attempt at reasoned thought and a modicum of civility among people here.

Winston Smith30 Jan 2018 3:55 p.m. PST

How about a specific example?

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 4:11 p.m. PST

You, sir, live on the wrong planet.

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 4:16 p.m. PST

Winston; I would get dog housed. But let me tone it down a notch by giving a minor example of typical comments. How many times has someone posted that they want some detail about a specific set of rules when someone comes on the thread and posts those rules suck and you should use my favorite rules. Or when someone chimes in on a geo-political issue and rather than stating a position based upon some knowledge they post how group x are losers, etc. if you look you'll see what I mean.

I just want people use reason, thought, and civility when they post.

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2018 5:54 p.m. PST

I don't know about the rest, but TMP is not my place of employment. Or my place of higher learning. Or my church, or anywhere else where I'd need to be on my best behavior.

I see TMP as one big watering hole where I can relax and let my hair down, not pull it out. I can chat or be left alone, talking all to myself in a corner, and I feel fine with that either way.

So I don't always come here to make too many lucid and mature statements. Or to feel like I'm about to be tested. Or to always be taken seriously. Or to always take others seriously, for that matter.

Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

And, as long as we keep some civility in our exchanges, I welcome the same level of "emotional" flexibility (and even silliness) in others.

Dan

JSchutt30 Jan 2018 6:07 p.m. PST

The evolutionary process is not what it used to be. Evolutionary dead ends seem to exceed their statical probability of times past.

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2018 8:08 p.m. PST

+1 JSchutt

Dan: Please treat TMP as a big watering hole where you can relax and let your hair down (if you have the hair, which I don't). That's what is good about this place and why I come to this site. I enjoy the humor of many of the posters and would love to sit and chat over a beer with most of the people on this site. But it is the people who are rude, or lack civility, or just want to treat others with disdain that are driving me nuts. I have a simple rule for how I draft my posts on TMP (and other sites): I treat every post as if I am saying to the person/people face to face, and they are bigger, stronger and faster than I am, and they are carrying clubs. By following this little rule, civility remains in the forefront. I can still joke, argue, discuss, or whatever and not treat others like idiots. If you ever are in my neck of the woods, I will gladly buy you a beer and debate this more if you wish.

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2018 10:18 p.m. PST

And if you're ever down this way, I'll buy you a few, and some BBQ.

Dan

Personal logo Private Matter Supporting Member of TMP31 Jan 2018 3:34 a.m. PST

Don't tell my neighbors but Texas BBQ is better than Carolina BBQ.

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP31 Jan 2018 3:55 a.m. PST

I'd say the problem is that people are highly educated in general, and very poorly educated on many subjects.

A perfect example is Belton Cooper and his book "Death Traps"

I do recommend the book, it's an eye opener on many levels. Some of the stuff he talks about, like the development of the Super-Pershing is highly interesting.

The guy was "over there", he had ample hands-on knowledge.

But if you believe everything in his book, you're being sorely mislead. He shows that even the "experts" don't always know what they are talking about. Many of his claims are one part truth and one part misunderstanding. He fails to recognize a real "Christy" suspension, he doesn't know the difference between various models of Sherman or misidentifies them.

You can blame these on a lack of research and working from memory.

He also makes quite a few assumptions, stuff he may have overheard somebody claim and accepted it as the truth, such as the fact that Patton single-handedly held back the introduction of the Pershing tank or that the name Sherman was invented by a "Yankee" to spite all the southerners in the army …

The archives do tell another story.

Yes, Belton Cooper is a veteran, he was there, he saw many things first-hand, but he was not private to all the discussions that went on between AGF, Ordnance and all the major players involved. Cooper probably heard somebody repeat, like a bit of telephone game, the idea that Patton wasn't too keen on introducing a new tank because it would require retraining the crews and would add a whole new tier of logistics to support it. As far as he was concerned he was still advancing without these fancy new tanks. Note this isn't Patton telling Washington to stop all work on the Pershing. He was only one of the many people consulted on the subject and to the shock of most wargamers, many commanders, including the "fighting officers" who drove tanks as a full-time job were not keen on getting new tanks either.

And this is where people, no matter how well educated on a subject will go wrong.

"How can they not want the Pershing ? They must have been incompetent idiots !!!"

There is a very interesting rule of thumb I came across a few years ago :

If you see a professional make a decision that to you sounds wrong there are two possibilities, either they have made a mistake, or they know something you might not.


To wrap up the point, there is a lot more to the Pershing debate than simply comparing armour thickness and gun penetration and conclude that anyone with an ounce of sense would have dropped the Sherman as soon as the Pershing was even mentioned.

If you follow the Cooper narrative you will conclude that the Sherman was the worst possible tank and that highly incompetent idiots did everything to stop any improvement leading to the death of tens of thousands of people. This conclusion is based on the opinion of an expert who was there and witnessed it all first-hand.

If you follow a broader narrative, you will understand that the Sherman was subject to planning based on certain assumptions and out of date information, that the US army had to deal with moving equipment across two oceans and any bad mistake could cause thousands of "perfect" tanks to sit idle in a parking lot leaving troops without tanks instead of giving troops an "adequate" tank that was available in huge numbers.

Sherman was quite adequate for most tasks, but it happened to be inferior to German tanks because of their fixation on armour and firepower above anything else. Shermans were designed to run in places the Panther would have fallen to pieces. It was designed to do more than just knock out enemy tanks and it was designed to be repaired in the field, as the US army didn't have the capacity to ship back tanks to the factory for a full repair like the Germans did. Just the amount of work that went into figuring how the effects of heat, humidity and general tropical on the rubber parts of the Sherman is pretty impressive. They may not have had a boner for big guns and thick armour, but they did take many factors into consideration that were not even an afterthought to the Germans.

Same story for the British, why were they unable to build a better tank ? Simple answer : they spent all their effort on building ships and planes, only a tiny % of the budget went to tanks. Tanks were not a major priority when it came to the British war machine, planes and ships were.

To return to the OP, many of us, on any given subject may only know the "Belton Cooper narrative" and parrot it endlessly because we are unaware that we only get a distorted one-sided story. And for lack of understanding we think we are the enlightened with a laser-like focused vision who understand any problem to a far greater degree than any "so-called "expert""

But then again there are many people who think Dunning and Kruger are complete idiots because "What do they know ?"

"Throw the first stone he who is without sin." I bet a lot of people would be highly offended if Jesus made an objection when they smiled, declared themselves without sin and stooped to grab a stone …

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP31 Jan 2018 5:19 a.m. PST

I am Dan.

Not literally but it's easier than typing

+1 Cacique Caribe and then explaining which of his posts I'm agreeing with (it's the one where he said :

I don't know about the rest, but TMP is not my place of employment. Or my place of higher learning. Or my church, or anywhere else where I'd need to be on my best behavior.

I see TMP as one big watering hole where I can relax and let my hair down, not pull it out. I can chat or be left alone, talking all to myself in a corner, and I feel fine with that either way.

So I don't always come here to make too many lucid and mature statements. Or to feel like I'm about to be tested. Or to always be taken seriously. Or to always take others seriously, for that matter.

Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

And, as long as we keep some civility in our exchanges, I welcome the same level of "emotional" flexibility (and even silliness) in others.


)

Cacique Caribe31 Jan 2018 7:54 a.m. PST

Okay, you get Texas BBQ too. :)

Dan
PS. I might need to borrow my father in law's giant grill/smoker on wheels.

jefritrout01 Feb 2018 6:56 p.m. PST

Yo quiero BBQ também.

Cacique Caribe23 Feb 2018 2:04 p.m. PST

Lol. Ok, you too!

Dan

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