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"Fundamentalism is instantly recognizable everywhere" Topic

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24 May 2016 9:58 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "Fundementalism is instantly recognisable everywhere" to "Fundamentalism is instantly recognizable everywhere"

495 hits since 24 May 2016
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 8:51 a.m. PST

So not sure how to frace this with out it going into politics or religion.

But First some background

The breed siberian husky is devided.

The division suposidly happend back in the 50s.
So you got the "show" and the "working/racing" type.
They are both the same breed and so all the same standards apply to both.

Most will only have seen the "show" type as Only in the Uk and the Nordic counries are the racing type in majoriy.
Very generaly Show types are like those you'd think a Siberian husky might look like. Polar fur ect. How ever there are extreme show dogs. They are heavy, have to much fur, short legs ect. They are not prety"

The racing type are lighter, often alot less fur. Some have longer legs. Again extreme versions exist(and sadly way to many of them) Where they look like a Siberian Grey whippet mix. They are skinny, have almost no fur their legs are way way to tall. Also not prety.

Now I won't go into what is the "right type" it would take hours to write a short into, and I'm not an authoraty. Also you should not take a single persons view as the correct aswer. I have my biases and opinons.

But in short. the more extreme of the siberians of the racing line have been bread that way to compete with the Alaska Huskies(mixed breed) The Alaska(AH) huskies naturaly don't have any standards to follow. They are breed for what they should do. So all AH have some "hound" in then, thats bird dogs like pointers. Those that do long dinstance running like Iditarod ect have more "polar dogs in them" while middle and short distance have more pointers, and of coruse if you want to do sprint at high level you simply use a pure bred pointer…

So it's impossible for a pure bred Siberian to compete with a good team of AH. Even the most extreme whippet like Siberians can't compete. And that is not my opinion, the competition resaults show that. There is always one or a few Siberian teams that beat a few of the AH teams(those teams are often run by a rookie or it's the B team or training team. So the FASTEST Siberian teams might beat the 5 slowest AH teams. How ever there will be some 20-35 AH teams ahead of the fastest Siberian team.

So what does this have to do with fundementalism.
Well this is a quote I read to day.

Ja, SH er en sledehund/trekkhund. Og de beste slår de fleste AH spann, det er korrekt


Yes, the Siberian Husky is a sleddog. And the best beasts most AH teasms, that is correct.

When read that and other things this person wrote. That is simply demonstrably wrong. This has nothing to do with weather the racing type of Show type is most correct hisoricaly or anatomicaly. But that and other statemens like that. So divorced from reality that I instantly got flash backs to certain other fundementalist we might come over from time to time.

Looking at any race in North America or Nordic countries where both Siberians and AH comepte in the same distance. They will always be far behind.

jpattern224 May 2016 9:36 a.m. PST

The Great Huskie Schism! Can't they all just get along? grin

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 10:08 a.m. PST

You would think they were stamp collectors, or model railroad hobbyists!

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 10:17 a.m. PST

Oh yeah.

Won't bore you with politics but after the yearly general meet last weekd end. There is some serious rumbling.
(It's a big breed club, but the vast vast majority are "racing" and so the mostly just over run what ever the other say)

This year they introduced wokring requierments to get show champiionship(which I personaly isn't against all the way, but the requierment is unfare)

But even worse they voted down the requierment for eye screening(one of the few major problems the breed has is eye related and it's genetic) So while for years and years Show breerders have checked the eyes of any dogs that are going to be used in breeding. Very few(but some) of the racing people have done so. This had lead to a decent amount of racing dogs with 1 eye(they of course got a stick in their eye or something) Or zero eyes….

Red358424 May 2016 10:37 a.m. PST

There was a big row at Crufts (the major UK pedigree dog show) this year where the German Shepherd that won best in breed looked very odd…almost deformed.

The dog seemed to have been bred to this type and apparently there's a whole debate within the murky Kennel Club world about it. Caused a lot of negative reaction from the public

Obviously wargamers would never get involved in divisive arguments….

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 10:39 a.m. PST

You would think they were stamp collectors, or model railroad hobbyists!

Or us!

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 11:10 a.m. PST

There was a big row at Crufts (the major UK pedigree dog show) this year where the German Shepherd that won best in breed looked very odd…almost deformed.

The dog seemed to have been bred to this type and apparently there's a whole debate within the murky Kennel Club world about it. Caused a lot of negative reaction from the public

Obviously wargamers would never get involved in divisive arguments….

Yeah The Kennel Club is quite bad on sevral breed(how ever alot of the Germans Sherpards in Germany is JUST as bad) if you want a German Shepard that can walk and stand. You need to go to eastern Europe(but they are hard in the head and will protect home and people to the point biting REALY biting to do so.
These are the germans shepards used in IPO

They are much harder in the head and much more like a real German shepard should be.

Many breed have health problems. Like the Bernese Mountain Dog. It's a medium to big dog. You won't see a indivunual over the age of 8… (well one or two) Almost all die between 5 and 8. And its almost always cancer!!
I know many Bernese Mountain Dog clubs around the world are trying very hard to fix this with medical screening and breading(only using older dogs for beeding(especaly males)

And the Cavalier King Charles spaniel have so small skulls so the brain is too big and the are in extreme pain. And while it may not be in as many dogs as the cancer in Bernese Mountain Dog. But alot of them have it…

Then you have the bulldog. Not able to mate or give brith. Very few can walk more then a few feet and they folds in their face gets fungal infactions.

Skeets Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 12:40 p.m. PST

I believe this is an endemic problem with dog shows. All dog show are primarily beauty contests and have no bearing on what the breed was developed for or whether they can do those tasks now.

jpattern224 May 2016 12:54 p.m. PST

Give me a scruffy rescue mutt over a pedigree any day.

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 1:24 p.m. PST

Why is it that dogs can be bred to excess and extremes of size going in both directions, yet house cats remain the same? I've never seen or heard of any breeding of cats that results in bigger cats or especially smaller cats. I've asked this before and nobody could answer me: why can't cats be bred to be tiny and cute? They'd sell like mad if you could breed kitties to be as small as a kitten when full grown….

Doug MSC Sponsoring Member of TMP24 May 2016 1:25 p.m. PST

I'm allergic to animals.

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 2:30 p.m. PST

Great War Ace…. It was on QI. Something genetic about dogs that allows them to have a greater range of shapes and sizes than other animals.

But never mind all that. How are we going to fight 'The Husky War'? Can a current ruleset be adapted? And who makes Huskys in 28mm….?

Red358424 May 2016 2:32 p.m. PST

Give me a scruffy rescue mutt over a pedigree any day.

Absolutely…the rescue charities are overflowing with dogs that would make great pets. My 2 definitely come into the scruffy mutt category!

Personal logo Waco Joe Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 2:34 p.m. PST

The same can happen in cats, only not to the same degree. Fore example the Munchkin:


or some of the extreme coffin head shapes that Siamese breekers will go for.
And don't get me going on the hairless varieties



Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 3:47 p.m. PST

I have been told that cats are already a miniature breed so they can't get smaller or much larger. It's like breeding toy poodles to make them larger.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

JSchutt24 May 2016 3:54 p.m. PST

Well….once the GMO people get involved one branch of the breed will be racing in Karmann Ghias while the other will be strutting the runways on 2 legs.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP24 May 2016 5:46 p.m. PST

All shall bow to the Alaskan Malamute!

That dog is just over a meter at the shoulder.

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP24 May 2016 10:06 p.m. PST

Whenever I see a vintage photo of a breed of dog, they look a lot better and more natural than the current standards. And the people who set these standards live as they would probably hate and despite the original examples of the breed as being inferior.

Old Wolfman25 May 2016 6:39 a.m. PST

One of Mr. Bigglesworth's relatives,I noticed. ;^)

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2016 7:59 a.m. PST

Samoyeds(Sammies aka The Smiling Dog)) are classified as an "Ancient Breed". meaning they haven't been over-bred by the show crowd. Also, they are a wonderful family dog.


Dog Rules

Author Unknown

1. Dogs are never permitted in the house. The dog stays outside in a specially built wooden compartment named, for very good reason, the dog house.

2. Okay, the dog can enter the house, but only for short visits or if his own house is under renovation.

3. Okay, the dog can stay in the house on a permanent basis, provided his dog house can be sold in a yard sale to a rookie dog owner.

4. Inside the house, the dog is not allowed to run free and is confined to a comfortable but secure metal cage.

5. Okay, the cage becomes part of a two-for-one deal along with the dog house in the yard sale, and the dog can go wherever he pleases.

6. The dog is never allowed on the furniture.

7. Okay, the dog can get on the old furniture but not the new furniture.

8. Okay, the dog can get up on the new furniture until it looks like the old furniture and then we'll sell the whole works and buy new furniture…upon which the dog will most definitely not be allowed.

9. The dog never sleeps on the bed. Period.

10. Okay, the dog can sleep at the foot of the bed.

11. Okay, the dog can sleep alongside you, but he's not allowed under the covers.

12. Okay, the dog can sleep under the covers but not with his head on the pillow.

13. Okay, the dog can sleep alongside you under the covers with his head on the pillow, but if he snores he's got to leave the room.

14. Okay, the dog can sleep and snore and have nightmares in bed, but he's not to come in and sleep on the couch in the TV room, where I'm now sleeping. That's just not fair.

15. The dog never gets listed on the census questionnaire as "primary resident," even if it's true.


Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP25 May 2016 9:14 a.m. PST

Actually, I've never seen a Malamute at a dog show.

They were bred to be good working dogs and have a good relationship with their humans. The type of smart independence you need in a good working dog for the arctic doesn't transfer well to "doing tricks".

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2016 9:42 a.m. PST

Both Samoyeds and Malamutes come in "working/show"

The only polar slead dog that does not seem to come in work/show is the Greenland dog(and probebly the canadian eskimo dog, but that one is not a reconized breed everywhere)

A show Malamute are gigantic think Malamute mixed with St bernard. Some of them are not pretty! Often dropping lips and eyelids when they get older.

The working malamute is easly 5-10kg lighter on avrage much smarter looking dogs. And they are still used in comptition(but always the slowest)

While the Siberian Husky is suppose to: Pull modereate load at moderate speed over long distances.
The Malamute is suppsoe to pull heavy loads over long distances.(about the same as a Green land dog)

The Samoyeds that Nansen used for his polar expedition looked more Siberian like, still clearly more Samoyeds but they where longer in their body. So they looked like long fured siberians(they also had shorter fur then today)

Samoyeds are great dogs. The most barking of the Polar dogs. They are cute little teddy bears! I was suprised the first time I was around any number of them.

We where at the polar dog show. So lots of Sammies. And they look so cute and cuddely. But damn when two or more of them get in each others face. You'll learn they are not a cuddly fur ball. They got opinions when it comes to which dogs get to mess with them!

The Malamute I knew could be quite agressive against dogs of the same sex. (thats why often Malamutes and Green land dogs when in a slead team will have stiff bars seperating each file. Becasue they are known to be agressvie against the same sex.

While Sammies and Siberians(and hounds and Alaksa huskies) Don't need that.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2016 12:30 p.m. PST

I am not sure if this is true or not, so…
I have read that there is a schism on the Border Collie ranks. A group is certifying Border Collies purely on the ability to herd sheep. They are opposed by the AKC Border Collie group that runs the beauty contest. Is this true?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2016 1:01 p.m. PST

Collies are also Show/working yes.(atleast in FCI(the world governming body of dog show and sport) (naturaly both AKC and the kennel club is outside of that) FCI covers all of europe not UK all of americans not Canada or USA. Most of asia ect.

So I assume also the AKC have that Schism.
In Europe the working bordercollies look like everything and nothing. They are pure bred as they have the family tree. But they will have hanging ears or crooked ears(like they have in the standard) some have standing ears. They come in all shapes and sizes.

The Show border collie has more fur, often fluffier fur. all have crooked ears.

In personality the working type is in much higher gear. They will stress if not used almost constantly. They will not be happy living on a couch and go for a few walks, they need to either heard or used in agility or something like they.

While the show type also have high gears they atleat can be calmed down.

The border collie is the only dog anybody high up in the agilty circit use(in big class) No other dog can beat it in aglity. It's quite extreme

As you see here in the Championship. all the dogs in "large" glass are borger collies. They are simply unbeatble. YouTube link

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2016 3:19 p.m. PST

YouTube link

at the end…

Zargon Inactive Member26 May 2016 11:35 a.m. PST

@ StoneMtnMinis yes on the final points :) oh so true with true pets/companions, on the points of in-breeding started with politicians and is in extreme at the moment, we need a new worldwide breeding program or not.

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