"Navy SEALS had GI Jane all along" Topic

and just didn't know about it:

link

I like to read as much as anyone, but I think I'll pass on the biography though.

"A former member of the elite U.S. Navy SEALs has come out to say she's now a woman."

But he's not…

No, he's not. Just a disfigured male in need of assistance.

A male-to-female transgender is a woman, whether you guys like it or not. I know transgenders, and I know that the last thing this former SEAL needs is a wargamer telling her she's "[j]ust a disfigured male in need of assistance."

Also, according to Bill, there are transgendered members of TMP, so keep your remarks respectful for their sakes.

For my part: Thank you for your service, Kristin.

I went to school with women who didn't look as good as that in a dress.

"just a disfigured male in need of assistance".

thats a label for a big percentage of wargamers and roleplayers! :-)

Um no GLTB Bashing. Fixed it.

It's not bashing. Amd "they" are not "gay" either.
If I can bear children, I can call myself a woman. Surgery will not make me one if I cannot.

Let's not go changing definitions just "to keep up with the times".

It's not bashing.

Derogatorily calling someone "disfigured" isn't bashing? In what world?

And "they" are not "gay" either

That's why the T is there.

Gender identity is a complex issue for some people. It isn't always black-and-white, and it's not just about biology.

It's a whole new world out there, guys. You can either join it or get left behind.

This is an ongoing debate. Can a man become a woman because he thinks he is one? Hormonal therapy and surgery can give a man the characteristics of a woman for all intents and purposes, but what is the real definition of a woman? Where do you draw the line? Do you truly have to have XX chromosomes to be female?

Discuss. But in a civilized manner please.

Discuss. But in a civilized manner please.

That would be nice, yes.

I posted more in this April thread, if anyone cares to read it: TMP link

Wow! I'll bet she works out!

I mean, come on, she's a veteran, and she was a *US Navy SEAL*, for crying out loud. The dropout rate for SEALs is over 90%, but she made it through the training, and she served well until her retirement. Show her some respect. Or does all of that count for nothing with some of you?

The facts are the facts gents and you can't get away with it. He might want to think he is a woman but a DNA test will prove otherwise, so he is a he no matter how you cut it.!

You mean HE was a veteran of the Navy SEALS right? Because a DNA test will have results of a male not female. Just because I dress up as Superman doesn't make it so.

Sigh…

No disrepect intended.

Biology is science though. The XX chromosome pairing denotes a female and the XY chromosome pairing denotes a male IN ANY MAMMAL.

Surgery doesn't change that.

Yup total dude

So, some here have a totally binary view of gender. There are men and there are women, and there is nothing else human. Is that an accurate summation?

I think there's more to gender than anatomy. I think it can be more complicated than either/or.

Exactly what it is in any particular case is not mine to say. But I think it's just civil to accept the individual as he or she presents, and not try to tell him that you know better than he does who he is. Or she.

No, he's not.

In a polite and tolerant society, I think the right thing to do is to respect the person's desires, even if you don't agree with their decision.

Just a disfigured male in need of assistance.

If by "disfigured" you are referring to gender reassignment surgery, then you're wrong – the article says no surgery has taken place yet.

Um no GLTB Bashing.

I think it's supposed to be LGBT (Lesbian/Gay/Transexual/Bisexual).

Amd "they" are not "gay" either.

Generally speaking, transsexuals in the U.S. do not consider themselves to be "gay." The exception would be someone attracted to the same gender as their perceived gender identity – in other words, a female-to-male transsexual attracted to a man would be "gay."

If I can bear children, I can call myself a woman. Surgery will not make me one if I cannot. Let's not go changing definitions just "to keep up with the times".

So women who cannot bear children aren't women any more?

It's a whole new world out there, guys. You can either join it or get left behind.

Reasonable people can disagree.

Derogatorily calling someone "disfigured" isn't bashing? In what world?

From one point of view, a man (or woman) who removes portions of their anatomy could be seen as disfiguring themselves. However, in a tolerant society, that's not a nice thing to say to (or about) anyone.

He might want to think he is a woman but a DNA test will prove otherwise, so he is a he no matter how you cut it.!

The counterargument is that the most sexual organ in the human body is the brain. Does the brain trump DNA? If your "soul" tells you that you are a particular gender, does the DNA matter?

Yup total dude

And that approach won't work, unless you're going to judge transsexuals by how they look? "Oh, that one's cute, she can be a woman; that one's not cute, definite guy." Doesn't make sense.

Also keep in mind (a) age of the person, (b) she hasn't had any surgeries yet, and (c) we don't know how long she's been on estrogen. The muscle mass is going to go away, the hormones will redistribute fat, a surgeon can create a more feminine face… a lot can change.

I some times transpose numbers and letters.

Again you can think anything you want the facts are still there, he is still a he. I can say I'm Superman even wear a cape and red boots doesn't mean I am Superman. If the guy feels great in drag cool, good for him but he is still a man. You can't change DNA no matter how much you hope for it to be other wise.

So women who cannot bear children aren't women any more?

They certainly have more right to call themselves a woman than does a dude.

I disagree John the OFM.

So, ANYONE can call themselves a woman?

Forget it. This "argument" is not worth continuing.
I yield. I am wrong. Everyone else is right. Pray, continue.

"O wonder! How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world,
That has such people in't."

Thanks William!

The Editor makes some interesting and enlightening points, even if you disagree with him.

I used to have very conservative views on this issue, but I've taken a more sympathetic perspective of late. The Superman analogy is too simplistic and not analogous. People who make the decision to change their gender don't make them so lightly. They've felt all their lives that they've been living a lie and have been trapped in the wrong bodies. That was what Bill meant when he mentioned the brain as the ultimate sex organ, not just because that's where your pleasure center is.

Some argue that the traditional biological gender definition based on XX vs. XY is too narrow, since they are not outwardly visible.

Thanks for all the civilized input.

Actually, I am more curious about how professional and Olympic athletes will compete as women vs transgender persons? It would seem like an inherent advantage to be a male in certain sports at one time and now a female? is that not so?

I\m also curious as to how the males here especially those with progressive views on transgender folks would view having a relationship with them? I certainly mean no offense. I am just curious as to their take on things?

Thanks,

John

So, ANYONE can call themselves a woman?

Anyone can call himself a trans-sexual. Can dress as a woman. Can take on the social role of a woman. I kinda think he should use the men's public bathroom, unless he's had the surgery so he's no longer anatomically a menace to women. That's what I think. It can get complicated.

I\m also curious as to how the males here especially those with progressive views on transgender folks would view having a relationship with them?

Flatterer.

You know as well as I do that. No one. Ever. Comes on to fat, hairy old men with modest social skills. If anyone ever did, I would at least take it as a compliment. And about 5 seconds later, my wife would kill us both.

Not touching this one.

If the guy feels great in drag cool, good for him but he is still a man. You can't change DNA no matter how much you hope for it to be other wise.

The point is that, in your opinion, DNA is the arbiter of someone's gender. The problem is that not everyone agrees with you.

And just to confuse things, I should point out that "feeling great in drag" does not necessarily mean that you're transsexual – some heterosexual men enjoy the crossdressing "hobby," and many "drag queens" are gay men with no desire to be women.

I'm also curious as to how the males here especially those with progressive views on transgender folks would view having a relationship with them?

What makes you think you'd even know?

There is something called Androgen insensitivity syndrome.

This means for example a genetically male person does not react to testosterone at all and do not develop any male characteristics. They become very feminine women, even more so than genetic women who do have a certain % of testosterone in their system. Since they are genetically male they are incapable of having children. So they are technically male, but their bodies are rigged to be "super-women".

According to what I read on this board they should be treated as men purely on a genetic base.

This case here is a person that has a female mental identity. But given our society and the strong bias to conform to the norm, these people are often pushed into trying to suppress this in a vain attempt to "cure" it. Which means they will try be as manly as possible, but gender identity is not a choice or a flight of fancy, it's a fact, there is no magical cure no matter what some people think. They don't need a good slap to clear their heads or invoke some religion based magical ritual belief that will magically "cure" them.

I happen to have a TG friend and you or I cannot even begin to imagine the world of pain such people usually end up in. They brain screams out them they are the wrong gender, society demands they conform to their birth gender and it causes huge problems as they do give in to pressure to normalize. It's only when they finally start to listen to common sense and not to the prejudices and expectations of others that they finally are at peace. Sadly this does not always happen and it leads to all kinds of sad and painful things.

BTW, odds are that at least one of the smoking hot chicks/hunks you ever came across in the street and paused to gawk and fantasize about was TG. There are plenty of people who are TG you would not even notice or look up to if you didn't know.

Many of the reactions here are based on latent fears and prejudices against LGTB people. Shame on you …

Thank you for that, Patrick.

Actually, I am more curious about how professional and Olympic athletes will compete as women vs transgender persons? It would seem like an inherent advantage to be a male in certain sports at one time and now a female? is that not so?

That's up to the governing bodies of the individual sports to decide, possibly with some "help" from the courts. The law tends to lag behind rapid societal changes, like gender identity and the Internet, for example.

I can assure you, though, that no one is going to have gender reassignment surgery just to get an unfair advantage in women's sports.

I'm also old enough to remember the arguments against allowing blacks in professional sports. At first it was, they're not good enough to compete head-to-head against whites, they'll ruin things. Then it was, they're *too* good, they'll ruin things. In fact, professional sports have never been more popular or more profitable.

I'm also curious as to how the males here especially those with progressive views on transgender folks would view having a relationship with them?

No offense taken, it's an honest question.

If by relationship you mean friendship, then yes, I'm already there.

If you mean falling in love, I could easily see that happening, if we clicked, even knowing ahead of time that she was a transwoman.

If you mean a sexual relationship, again, yes, if I fell in love with her, that would be the natural progression. Love really does conquer all.

And, again, I remember the same arguments being made against inter-racial, inter-ethnic, and inter-religious relationships. "Sure, but would you let your *daughter* marry one?" (Interesting that it was always the daughters who needed to be protected from "them," not the sons.) (And, yes, I'm well aware that many benighted people still make the same arguments today.)

Let me clarify that I'm not saying that *you* felt that way, John, I'm just citing similar historical examples. So definitely no offense meant on my part.

I met somebody on-line several years ago through mutual gaming interests like D&D and Battletech. We would chat once in a while about our gaming experiences and for a time they were just another internet acquaintance.

We would sometimes discuss things of a more personal nature like work and family etc, but it was a bombshell when he revealed he was TG and looking to become a woman. It wasn't an in your face declaration, there were some minor hints and when it finally came out it was

And yes you do go through all the scenarios and questions in your head and I figured that in the end this didn't make much of a difference. I rationally couldn't think of any reason to find offence in this. There was no mutual attraction, no sordid details were offered or asked. It's just another person, I respect them and who am I to decide what they can or cannot do if it doesn't break Wheaton's Law.

She went through hell, she was married with kids and the wife simply didn't understand what was going on. She only wanted her husband and nothing else. It didn't help she was from another continent altogether and cultural differences were probably even more pronounced than they would be if she had a more local origin.

My friend was torn between the ties to her family and her own needs.

It's hard to chat with somebody who tells you they felt the urge to drive their car into a tree that evening and get over with it. "At least they would get the insurance money"

It's damn hard to find the right words to say.

That episode may sound selfish to some people, but this is a person who is pushed in various direction and is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

She did proceed with hormone therapy and changed her life despite the wife's concerns and it wasn't easy, there was a temporary separation, there were special conciliation meetings etc. Luckily her son, 9 years old at the time told her that it didn't matter if she was a man or a woman, he knew they were still the same person and would love them regardless.

I'm afraid I've kinda lost touch with her and don't really know her current status. I hope she's doing well and made the right choices, but I did gain a tiny bit of insight in the suffering of a person trying to do the right, honourable thing. This wasn't a flight of fancy or a whim or some cool hip thing to do. This is a real physiological and psychological phenomenon.

Hi, my question about athletes was not meant to suggest that anyone would have surgery to gain an advantage. That's absurd to think. However, males do have very real physical advantages and I'm sure it could mean a difference in some athletic competitions.

Thanks,

John

This person heavily modified himself to look like a cat after an elder in his tribe told him to follow the way of the cat. Is he a cat or a person modified to look like one, and what is the difference between doing this to yourself and trying to transgender?

link

To paraphrase Bill's comment above: In a polite and tolerant society, if he feels the need to be called a cat in order to be happy, then, yes, I'll call him a cat. How does that hurt me or the rest of society in any way, shape, or form? There might be legal issues to work through, but that's not my responsibility. (Sadly, though, it looks as though he did commit suicide.)

However, if you honestly don't see the difference between what he did and what Kristin Beck did, you need to re-read some of the posts above, or read some of the heart-breaking stories you can find online. At least read the Wiki article on transgender: link

A little understanding goes a long way.

I can agree with a desire for a polite society; but a tolerant society? Well maybe, but it depends on what I'm being asked to tolerate. Murder, for instance? I'm intolerant.

Where's the cry for tolerance of those who disagree with this sort of lifestyle choice?

Sadly I suspect the cry for tolerance isn't intended to be universal but rather limited to the aberration du jour.

Let's be clear. This is a personal choice. I wouldn't agree, but it is his business – not mine. It remains though a choice, not a biological fact.

The disfiguration comment was a reference to the surgery most (but not all) of these individuals eventually undergo. Lack of the surgery, only reinforces the argument that this individual remains, biologically and anatomically a man.

We live in an age of imprecision in our communication. I prefer clarity as an aid to communication. This desire for clarity should not be interpreted as a slur. I certainly did not intend it as such.

However, males do have very real physical advantages and I'm sure it could mean a difference in some athletic competitions.

As I said above, that's up to the governing bodies of the individual sports to decide. The International Olympic Committee has allowed transgender athletes to compete since the mid-2000s, as long as they wait at least two years after their reassignment surgery.

Murder, for instance? I'm intolerant.

As you should be. But how is a personal choice like Kristin's at all akin to murder or any other crime?

As I said, "How does [the Cat man, or transgendered people] hurt me or the rest of society in any way, shape, or form?" That certainly can't be said of murder.

Where's the cry for tolerance of those who disagree with this sort of lifestyle choice? Sadly I suspect the cry for tolerance isn't intended to be universal but rather limited to the aberration du jour.

Ah, the paradox of tolerance! When a tolerant person becomes antagonistic toward intolerance, hence becoming intolerant.

However, no one on this thread has been openly intolerant or antagonistic toward you. I'm not aware of anyone telling you to shut up or calling for your Dawghousing. In fact, every poster on this thread has been very polite, except for a couple on just one side of the discussion.

And "aberration du jour," really? Another example of "imprecision in our communication," I guess.

Well for me in the end I guess I'm a conservative in how I view the world; . Our culture is more and more accepting of the strange or abnormal Behavior in people then ever before and I frankly don't like it. This man can not change his DNA and once again I say, proves who he really is. Does he need help sure he does but he will not get it because society now tells him it's Ok. we have now in my opinion slipped down a hole we may or may not beable to come back from a hole that accepts everything under the illusion of "well thats the way they feel" I have been in Federal court where defense attorney's were defending pedophiles saying they were born this way so we can't discriminate against them and it's happened more than once. Some of you will say well thats crime against children this a man isn't hurting anyone but that the point the more we as a society accept the abnormal as normal it will be easier for it to happen.

So, to follow the logic of the comment "disfigured", would one describe males or females who have cosmetic surgery for health or looks, to be so "disfigured"?

Any male or female that has not procreated, is not a male or female? A number of my straight friends that found that they either did not want to have children or more often, could not, would be surprised to hear that they've lost their gender identification.

I have, due to my age and education, along with an open mind, no problem with any of this. Any adult, of sound mind, not hurting anyone else, can be or do any damn thing they want in my world.

Lots of odd people in the world, but again, be they adult (maturity), not hurt anyone one else and of sound mind, why would I or any one care what they do, who they do it with or any combination. One can quibble about how old someone has to be to be considered adult (smile), but it all comes down to a question of respect in my opinion.

You respect the person as they are if they deserve it, not your world view of what you think they should be.

Good for this woman for not only knowing what and who she is, but the strength and honesty to face the world and say the same.

Dan

But she is really a he you can't beat DNA!

I think the cat guy upsets people (me included I guess) because he doesn't qualify to most common Western aesthetic standards. Another reason is that we humans are programmed to look for flaws in potential mates.

Unusual features might indicate illness or unfavourable genetic material. There have been plenty of tests were normal people were given unusually large birthmarks or "ugly" features and made to interact with people. Usually people tended to interact for a much shorter period of time if the person had some strange/ugly feature.

It's possible he may have suffered from body dysmorphic disorder and became addicted to surgery, living from one procedure to another, piling up the changes.

TG people have surgery to make right what they feel is wrong about them. It's like a disfigured person given surgery to give them a more normal appearance. It's an act of kindness and it helps another person improve their quality of life, unlike murder which is a violent assault on the integrity of another person.

Some of you will say well thats crime against children this a man isn't hurting anyone but that the point the more we as a society accept the abnormal as normal it will be easier for it to happen.

Legally, children can't give consent. That makes it pedophilia and/or statury rape, depending on jurisdiction. End of story.

Irish, what do you do with somebody with Androgen insensitivity syndrome ? They are genetically male, but due to a defect they will not react to testosterone. You can inject them with it until they explode and it will not affect them.

They cannot procreate and may have poorly developed sexual organs, would you force them to become male because their DNA says so ?

What about intersex people with ambiguous genitalia ? How do you decide what they should be, as their DNA is often mixed up as well ?

According to some research gender is as much a part of the brain as it is in your DNA. Though still controversial the case of David Reimer is a striking example. He was a boy that was raised as a girl after a botched medical procedure. It turns out that despite all attempts to mould him into being a girl the gender identity is fully formed in the brain and he reverted to being a boy.

Most people have the right brain connection, but once in a while the "wires get crossed" and the person can be helped by a medical procedure, no need to drag in murder or paedophilia and create a guilt by association fallacy.

How would you feel if a loved one was disfigured, but society somehow frowned up on the idea of reconstructive surgery. That it's unnatural and that fate ordained the accident to happen, while at the same time constantly displaying negative reactions to the disfigurement. Would you blindly accept it or make sure that person at least had a semblance of a normal life ?

"Irish, what do you do with somebody with Androgen insensitivity syndrome ? They are genetically male, but due to a defect they will not react to testosterone. You can inject them with it until they explode and it will not affect them.

They cannot procreate and may have poorly developed sexual organs, would you force them to become male because their DNA says so ?

What about intersex people with ambiguous genitalia ? How do you decide what they should be, as their DNA is often mixed up as well ?"

We're moving rather far afield now. This gentleman is making a decision. Fine. He is not a victim of genetic flaws or ambiguous genitalia or the winter solstice.

He is making a lifestyle choice. He is not transcending gender. Gender is a biological term. He is a male choosing to live as a female.