"Rec' reading for the hardcore Atheist?" Topic

Though I was raised as an agnostic (by an Irish Catholic father & German Prod. mother no less!) I have been a card carrying, banner waiving Atheist since my college days.

Other than a few books on astronomy and anthropology in my college days, I havent done much reading on the subject over the last 20 years.

I'm now trying to make up for lost time with a vengence. I wanted to share a couple books ive enjoyed and also request recommendations for any good reads for the layman (re: sience, genetics, evolution, astronomy, cosmology, etc…).

Here's what ive read recently and have enjoyed:
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I also plan to go back and read "Cosmos" by Sagan.

Here are some people Ive seen speak and have enjoyed but have not read anything by them yet:
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With so many titles out there its hard to sort out the good reads. I appreciate any further recommendations!

U.K.

I like a good read of the Bible (King James Version) every now and again. The Qur'an makes less interesting reading. I am very fond of the Tao Te Ching and the Vedas/Upanishads/Smriti as well. From my own perspective, reading the "source" material is an important part in formulating any opinion about religion.

But each to his own :-)

Read the "good" book once back in highschool. Found it pretty laughable. Have not ventured into the Qur'an.

I own the Tao Te Ching but have never finished it. I am more interested in "pagan" texts (druidism, Egyptology, etc…) than the "traditional" big 3 relions's texts.

Well since this is in the science section, you would probebly read the greatest show on earth. also by Dawkins,

And ofcrouse the good book, Origin of species, part science book, part poetry. I want to read it, but still havn't gotten the stick out to get the book.

"you would probebly read the greatest show on earth"

On my list Gunfreak!

A while back I read 'The Conspiracy Against The Human Race' by Thomas Ligotti. Not strictly a book of science but it's non-fiction and pushed my atheist buttons: link

My first thought was Neil deGrasse Tyson. I've seen him in person, too, and I highly recommend his books.

I like the Humanist magazine, put out by the American Humanist Association. americanhumanist.org

I've read the Bible twice, the Book of Mormon, big chunks of the the Torah and Koran, Gilgamesh, Edith Hamilton, Joseph Campbell, bits and pieces of many other religions and philosophies.

I read a lot of religious history and comparative religion, too. One of my favorite books on the subject is Virginia Hamilton's "In the Beginning: Creation Stories from Around the World": link

The first formal intro I ever read on the topic was Atheism: the Case Against God by George H. Smith. It was very influential to me at the time.

Hitchens is a better writer but by then my mind had long been made up.

Many "Humanists" find Ayn Rand objectionable so you should probably have read at least The Virtue of Selfishness to be really hardcore. To be an athiest and libertarian is too much for many to handle.

the layman (re: sience, genetics, evolution, astronomy, cosmology, etc…)

I'm not sure what these subjects have to do with atheism?

I've never understood the need to associate religion with science of any kind, period. I've never understood the requirement for one side to denigrate the other, either.

I think you might be surprised to realize lot of religious groups outside of one very large country that seems to be filled with flaming idiotic and wilfully ignorant preachers going on about how:

science-is-evil-and-should-not-be-taught-in-schools

have realized this long, long ago. For example, the Church of England (Anglican, Episcopal) has long since acknowledged creation myths as myths.

So, I don't know what you're really looking for. Anything by Jared Diamond is usually a good read as well as Peter Ward.

I'm Christian myself, but am very steeped in science of many kinds, my favourites being paleo-archaeology and evolution (of all of us), geological events, and astronomy. I'm perfectly happy with any explanation of why people need to believe things being a result of chemical and electrical interactions within our nervous system.

Science has nothing to do with religion and visa versa. Anyone who wastes time with that is taking valuable time away from real science in my opinion.

BTW, I won't read the Koran because I have yet to come across anything that will help me understand it. Just as with the bible, I don't see a lot of point in just readin words without a good understanding of the socio-economic environment and the level of understanding of the world that was prevalent at the time of writing. In much the same way I see kids of today having difficulty relating to some of the drama of older movies some of us used to enjoy from before the time of cell phones, for example.
--
Tim

You should read
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" by Dr. Julian Jaynes.

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The End of Faith by Sam Harris… much easier to stomach than Hitchens in my view…

He's a bit of a non-theist mystic though… so YMMV.

In much the same way I see kids of today having difficulty relating to some of the drama of older movies some of us used to enjoy from before the time of cell phones, for example.

That bothered me a bit too… I've got a friend, not much younger than myself, who can't stand old movies… anything in black and white.
Then I remembered that when I was a kid I didn't much care for those things either… or coffee… or wine… or a thousand other tastes that I have since acquired.
So what a young person values at any given moment says nothing about what they might enjoy a few years hence.

I'd suppose that even goes for the faddish brand of Atheism that's making the rounds… I wouldn't be surprised to see a surge of churchgoing in about 10yrs time.

" I'd suppose that even goes for the faddish brand of Atheism that's making the rounds…"

Atheism is suddenly faddish???

Polls in America show that people would more likely vote for a Communist candidate for president than a atheist one!

I hardly feel that we are a large group, though we are probably largely under represented since we have no lobbies in Washington.

As to comments as to what science and atheism have to do with each other, they do have a nexus in my opinion.

Many atheists come to their "beliefs" after having studied some form of science. Which is probably why 85% of scientists world wide claim to be atheists.

Atheism is suddenly faddish???

Yeah, I do think there is a bit of a hipster-Atheist moment going on right now… at least amongst some of the circles I move in. A fad doesn't have to involve the majority of the populace… and it doesn't mean that those beliefs are transient for all. A fad might grow into a trend… into something longer lasting.
I say it's 'faddish' right now because the folks I see declaring their Atheism the loudest are the same ones who were 'Pagan' a short while back… and claimed themselves to be gay/bisexual for a while as well. It's more about grasping for a 'persona' than having a rational outlook.
That's not to say that there isn't a real long-term trend away from superstition… but that's not what's going on with my proudly ex-Catholic friend and her Darwin t-shirts and bumper stickers and shouting at anyone who dares bring up religion in her presence.

Then again, maybe it's like the person who has just given up cigarettes who becomes an anti-smoking zealot. Maybe a baby-Atheist has to go through a period of shouting at Bible-thumpers.

You should probably read some Bertrand Russell ("Why I am not a Christian") from that earlier civil time when people who disagreed did so without coming across as zealots. The current crop of atheists often seem noisy and self-promoting, like a sort of anti-deistic Westboro Baptist Church.

Some while ago I read a review of, I think, Hitchens by an older theologian in a liberal Christian journal, who said something to the effect that, "The good news is this book will not challneg your beliefs. The bad news is this book will not challenge your beliefs."

Is the Bluey Fezzy deady or what?…

I'm an archeaologist/anthropologist so I've been exposed to a number of origin stories and have read about a few more. Many have striking similarities, and many not so much. The fact is, there is insufficient evidence/data to conclude one way or the other. So until they open the Ark of the Covenant and the power of God shoots out, I'll remain undecided.

Here are two interesting books:

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…for a very readable study of religious beliefs and rituals, and…

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…a novel and interesting take on Christ's 40-day fast in quarantine.

So… why do you think there is "required reading" for a personal belief system?
-Kle.

For real, Klebert! I don't get up every day congratulating myself for not believing in Leprechauns. Instead of reading about how cool it is to be an atheist, one could study thermodynamics or something; maybe help to design more efficient cars. Instead some prefer to armour themselves daily against Faith.

Ron

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Wow, didn't take to long for the Atheist bashing to begin!

Put up a post saying you would like book recommendations to learn about Judaism or Christianity….no problem.

Ask for a couple "atheist" related titles and you might of as well have said "anarchist".

It truly is amazing to me that people with "belief" in a certain system should feel so obligated to attack anyone who dares to think a different way.

Its no wonder more atheists don't "come out" in public when they are treated this way.

" Maybe a baby-Atheist has to go through a period of shouting at Bible-thumpers"

Lol, no I try and avoid the thumpers as much as possible.

They're just being pedantic and yanking your chain, they know what you meant.

You can also check out the forum at the James Randi Educational Foundation for some very . . . interesting discussions: forums.randi.org/forumindex.php

While the bulk of the posters over there are rational skeptics, there are some who make the screwiest TMPer sound like the voice of reason by comparison.

Interesting link. Thanks.

@ Mexican Jack, thanks. Picked up some of his writings yesterday.

@ Gunfreak, both Dawson book rec's added to my list. Thanks.

This has an interesting series of essays from the likes of:

Lucretius, Benedict de Spinoza, Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, Mark Twain, George Eliot, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, H. L. Mencken, Albert Einstein, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, & Richard Dawkins.

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Re: Creation Myths, this one looked interesting:
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If Jim Jeffries be with us, who could be against us!
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lol

Wow, didn't take to long for the Atheist bashing to begin!

Where? Who? Nice to see that atheists are as thin skinned as believers.

Put up a post saying you would like book recommendations to learn about Judaism or Christianity….no problem.

Actually, there would be. TMP used to have some separate Boards for "Wargamers and Religion" and "Wargamers and Christianity". Something like that. Both were axed from TMP, along with the "Current Affairs Board".
The Blue Fez was set up SPECIFICALLY to handle "controversial" topics like yours.
We aren't supposed to be "tainted" by this!

So, I am quite surprised that Dear Editor has not removed this whole thread, as he has in the past. I am not asking that it be nuked, I am merely surprised that it hasn't.

On topic, my only comment is that it's nice to see that atheists have their sacred texts too.

My wife is an Evangelical Atheist.

My favorite creation myth, from Melanesia (speaking anthropologically here, not religiously): In the beginning, people lived forever. When they grew old, they removed their skins, bathed in the river, and returned home fresh and young. But one day, when a grandmother returned home, her grandchild began crying inconsolably because he did not recognize her. So the grandmother, out of love for her grandchild, returned to the river and took up her old skin. And now people no longer live forever.

Isn't that great? I can imagine the tribal elders telling that story to the children around the fire at night.

So… why do you think there is "required reading" for a personal belief system?

"Rec" means recommended, not required.

:)

On topic, my only comment is that it's nice to see that atheists have their sacred texts too.

Oh, come on, John, you knew that already. Why, you and I even share at least two holy texts: "Elements of Style" and the "Oxford English Dictionary."

" So, I am quite surprised that Dear Editor has not removed this whole thread, as he has in the past. I am not asking that it be nuked, I am merely surprised that it hasn't."

Lol, so asking for science related book topics is now to be considered Fezzy?

Is it science or faith?

You complain about Atheist bashing, but you posted this first-

Read the "good" book once back in highschool. Found it pretty laughable. Have not ventured into the Qur'an.

Seems to be a two way street.

Mmm, hardly Dude. I was giving my "opinion" as to a book someone suggest I read.

The mere fact that I find that book to be comically written isnt a slight of anyone who believes in whats in it. Its my opinion. Dont confue it with an attack.

After all, as I recall the "good book" states things like (roughly paraphrasing here ;-)

"If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death"

and…

"Anyone who dishonors father or mother must be put to death. Such a person is guilty of a capital offense"

and other such niceties.

Now if those arent cause in this day age to make you laugh, then I'm sorry.

"(re: sience, genetics, evolution, astronomy, cosmology, etc…)

I'm not sure what these subjects have to do with atheism?"

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Uesugi, I'm sympathetic to your views but I do think you started off on the offensive, expecting someone would chime in to argue and seemingly gleeful when they did… though their comments were pretty mild.
I certainly don't see anyone 'bashing' Atheists.

" I do think you started off on the offensive, expecting someone would chime in to argue and seemingly gleeful when they did… though their comments were pretty mild."

Not my intention at all. I'm not a baiter . I was looking for comments and suggestions from like minded people. I understand my stifle count may make people think otherwise. Couldn't be further from the truth.

I appreciate all the suggestions so far.

Here are the chapters from Hitchen's book, "The Portable Atheist". Most are from books that are well worth looking at……..

Chapter 1: Lucretius: De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things) – Books I, II, III, V, translation by W. Hannaford Brown
Chapter 2: Omar Khayyám: Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám: A Paraphrase from Several Literal Translations by Richard Le Gallienne
Chapter 3: Thomas Hobbes: Of Religion, from Leviathan
Chapter 4: Benedict De Spinoza: Theologico-Political Treatise
Chapter 5: David Hume: The Natural History of Religion, Of Miracles
Chapter 6: James Boswell: An Account of My Last Interview with David Hume, Esq.
Chapter 7: Percy Bysshe Shelley: A Refutation of Deism
Chapter 8: John Stuart Mill: Moral Influences in My Early Youth, From Autobiography
Chapter 9: Karl Marx: Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right
Chapter 10: George Eliot: Evangelical Teaching
Chapter 11: Charles Darwin: Autobiography
Chapter 12: Leslie Stephen: An Agnostic's Apology
Chapter 13: Anatole France: Miracle
Chapter 14: Mark Twain: Thoughts of God, From Fables of Man; Bible Teaching and Religious Practice, From Europe and Elsewhere and A Pen Warmed Up in Hell
Chapter 15: Joseph Conrad: Author's Note to The Shadow Line
Chapter 16: Thomas Hardy: God's Funeral
Chapter 17: Emma Goldman: The Philosophy of Atheism
Chapter 18: H. P. Lovecraft: A Letter on Religion
Chapter 19: Carl Van Doren: Why I am An Unbeliever
Chapter 20: H. L. Mencken: Memorial Service
Chapter 21: Sigmund Freud: From The Future of an Illusion, translated and edited by James Strachey
Chapter 22: Albert Einstein: Selected Writings on Religion
Chapter 23: George Orwell: From A Clergyman's Daughter
Chapter 24: John Betjeman: In Westminster Abbey
Chapter 25: Chapman Cohen: Monism and Religion An Old Story
Chapter 26: Bertrand Russell: An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish
Chapter 27: Philip Larkin: Aubade Church Going
Chapter 28: Martin Gardner: The Wandering Jew and the Second Coming
Chapter 29: Carl Sagan: The Demon-Haunted World The God Hypothesis
Chapter 30: John Updike: From Roger's Version
Chapter 31: J. L. Mackie: Conclusions and Implications, From The Miracle of Theism: Arguments for and against the Existence of God
Chapter 32: Michael Shermer: Genesis Revisited: A Scientific Creation Story
Chapter 33: A. J. Ayer: That Undiscovered Country
Chapter 34: Daniel C. Dennett: Thank Goodness!
Chapter 35: Charles Templeton: From A Farewell to God, A Personal Word, and Questions to Ask Yourself
Chapter 36: Richard Dawkins: Why There Almost Certainly is No God, Gerin oil, and Atheists for Jesus
Chapter 37: Victor Stenger: From God: The Failed Hypothesis, Cosmic Evidence
Chapter 38: Daniel C. Dennett: A Working Definition of Religion from "Breaking Which Spell?"
Chapter 39: Elizabeth Anderson: If God is Dead, Is Everything Permitted?
Chapter 40: Penn Jillette: There is No God
Chapter 41: Ian McEwan: End of the World Blues
Chapter 42: Steven Weinberg: What About God? From Dreams of a Final Theory
Chapter 43: Salman Rushdie: "Imagine There's no Heaven": A Letter to the Six Billionth World Citizen
Chapter 44: Ibn Warraq: The Koran, The Totalitarian Nature of Islam
Chapter 45: Sam Harris: In the Shadow of God, From The End of Faith
Chapter 46: A. C. Grayling: Can an Atheist Be a Fundamentalist? From Against All Gods
Chapter 47: Ayaan Hirsi Ali: How (and Why) I Became an Infidel

The current crop of atheists often seem noisy and self-promoting, like a sort of anti-deistic Westboro Baptist Church.

An example of the logical fallacy known at the "false equivalency", or "false analogy".

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No, it's simply a comparison, exaggerated for effect.

Seriously, isn't there a difference between someone who tells you, "I am an atheist" – insert "Catholic", "Buddhist", "Missouri Synod Lutheran" – and someone who feels that their statement is grounds to ridicule your own beliefs, whatever they are?

Person A can blame Christianity for the Crusades, the Inquistion etc, and Person B may retaliate that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were fervent atheists. But that doesn't help the discussion at all. If you find yourself talking to someone who thinks burning heretics or shooting anyone with a university degree is cool, you probably won't find it a fruitful discussion.

Agreed Jack. Let's all go back to playing with toy soldiers now.

Yeah, I do think there is a bit of a hipster-Atheist moment going on right now

Ah, now I'm a hipster. Only taken >30 years to become one of the cool kids

Ah, now I'm a hipster.

Nope, not what I said either… just that for SOME newly (loudly) proclaimed atheists it's perceived as the cool thing to be right now.

No, it's simply a comparison, exaggerated for effect.

Sorry Mexican Jack, while I enjoy most of your posts, in this case, I believe you are in error. Seriously comparing the actions and statements of Fred, Shirley and Nathan Phelps to those of Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins is a false equivalency, even if used for rhetorical flourish

I could point out that your "Person A, Person B" argument is also a false analogy, in fact Dawkins does a good analysis on just how bad that argument is. Instead, let's follow Uesugi's advice, shall we?

Bowman, I believe you are thinking too much.

(See what I did there?)

off-topic

The story of the grandmother/child and the river brought to mind a joke:

(note: while the grandmother is Jewish, it has to do with the accent of the punchline that, imo, improves the joke in the telling.)

A Jewish grandmother is sitting at the beach watching her grandson playing down near the water. Suddenly a huge wave comes up, crashes on the boy and sweeps him out to sea and out of sight.

The old woman flings herself onto her knees and beseeches heaven, "God – please…bring my only grandson back to me…he's so young and innocent…he's the joy of my life…please, God…please, I beg of you." -and so forth.

She hears a mighty roar and looks to see another wave coming in. It crashes on the beach, depositing her grandson alive and safe in front of her.

"Thank you, God…oh, thank you!" she says. Then, looking more closely at the boy, adds "He had a hat?"

Hahahahaha! Nice!

And I can confirm that it's not just Jewish grandmothers who think that way.

So, I'm not a hipster ?

Ah well, cool for 30 minutes is better than never cool….

I prefer the term "Heathen" to hipster!

"Theist" on evolution. Intersting.
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