" What is OK, borderline, unsportsmanlike? " Topic

Watching the story/video about everyone's favorite college soccer girl, the female anchors were appalled, and the male anchor said "That happens all the time in hockey!" (LOL! My first comment as well)

Got me thinking about a discussion topic.

The theme is players fighting for position against eachother (be it on the low post in hoops, in front of the crease in hockey, in front of the goalie's box (what is the term?) in soccer, etc.)

Where is the line drawn between and act being "part of the game" and "unsportsmanlike"?

Note: Don't just quote the rules, because that isn't the question (most "positioning contact" is on paper a penalty, but in reality, the refs only call a "foul" when a player is excessive or uses a per se illegal tactic (like grabbing in basketball)

I'm talking specific tactics. (even those that are illegal if the ref catches it) using a "Mallum per se" standard of review:

So, talk about some tactics!

(subtle or severe, people. a light push to get seperation from defender may be OK in your book, while shoving the opponent into the third row of the stands may not))?

Throwing an Elbow?

Pushing/shoving (subtle or severe)?

Hooking, grabbing, pulling?(using hand and arm to deny an opponent, impede his movement, enabling you to secere position)

("position" doesn't have to be a set place, "position" can be had while on a full out run, getting through a lane first, being in best angle to ball/goal, etc.)

Leg block/hook/sweep? (using extended leg to deny or impede opponent)

Knee, kick, trip? (striking opponent with knee, kicking him, or triping (the old "Step on foot and shove" trick), to deny/impede opponent. NOT like a karate kick to head to KO someone, more like a short kick to an opponent on the ground to slow him from getting up, crawl/dive for a loose ball)

Scratch, claw, poke? (that soccer girl had a GREAT claw to the face of an opponent, as they both were airborne, kicking at a ball) Was clawed many times in the face and arms driving to the basket, bleeding is a part of taking it to the hoop.

Punch? (Not a roundhouse to injure opponent, but a short strike to a vital area (I used a very short, left hook to the soalr plex, liver, kidney of bigger post players to retaliate for uncalled over the back fouls in basketball)

Uniform and hair pulling? (of course, the severity of force ceiling has been raised thanks to our soocer girl)

Body check?

(using body to force opponent back, impede or deny him. could be a steady, slow push with shoulder or back, could be a full speed glancing or head on collision)

Superfly Snuka? (or any similar tactic where you use speed, gravity and mass of body to get airborne and collide with or on top of opponent, to impede/deny/stop him from gaining objective like loose ball) I was guilty of that lots. :(

Any others?

With the exception of the ponytail pull, both my boys inflicted worse and had worse inflicted upon them in high school and club soccer. Several of that girls' tackles were quite foul and should have earned cards but the elbowing and shoving were nothing out of the ordinary on any corner kick. Not per se tactics (in soccer/footbal getting a card for other than preventing a goal is just dumb) but part of the game.

"That happens all the time in hockey"

I've never seen hair pulling in Hockey. To me, that was completely unnaceptable.

Anytime you go after the knees of an opponent is wrong. I have a stake here with 7 knee operations that started in high school football – now have a titanium knee on one side while the other had acl/mcl repair. Soccer and Basketball are officially non-contact sports. Collisions happen by accident and some jostling happens for position, but we should not define fouls down.

Your daughter never played hockey???

Mine played in a 'no check' league. Generally decked more than one of the boys during the game for stuff like that. When I pointed out that what she was doing was unsportsman like she would reply, "If I don't do it to them, they will do it to me"! Such is junior hockey.

mjc

When I played basket ball in high school eight of the 10 players on my team were 6'2" – as was I. For the most part we were interchangeable parts. This was pretty big for a high school team but there was always one or two guys on the other team that were 6'8 or 6'10.

Most of the time I had the honor (sucked big time) of guarding the opponents best player – didn't matter if he was 5'6" or 6'10". Actually I was a pretty good defender. I was told I had 5 fouls -- make em count. I could have been a role model for Dennis Rodman. Push, shove, grab the shorts, stand on his feet, stomp on his feet, kick the back of the knee, help the guy into the crowd or into the wall.

I was involved in two fist fights where we were both ejected (best player on the other team and your's truely – totally expendable). From my coaches stand point this was always the best thing that could happen especially if it occurred early in the game (which it never did -- it took a while to really tick the other player off).

Then there was 'thumping' where you take your thumb, 2nd and 3rd fingers and quickly thump the opposing player's sternum while he is exposed while he shoots. This doesn't do much early in the game but after a bruise develops the area gets quite sore and the shooter will alter his shot in an attempt to defend the injured area. Ref's never called this -- they were always focused on the other hand (which was elevated in an attempt to block the shot or get in the shooter's face.

Fingernails. This is how they got me back. They would file their nails to a very fine edge -- perhaps used clear polish to strengthen them I dunno. I got scratched, gouged and ripped on a regular basis. Half the time I was a bloody mess by the end of a game with several shallow lacerations. My own nails are very soft and break easily. No hope of retaliation for this stuff.

Only got punched in the back once.

Always thought about doing a volley ball spike of an attempted shot right back into the shooter's face but never did this -- I was a disciple of the Bill Russel shot blocking school -- block it up into the air so you can get the ball. Much better than swatting it out of bounds.

I did send an outlet pass off the back of a guy's head once. Put him face down on the floor. Not intentional at all -- really -- but did start a fight.

Some of this is down right dirty. Some of it is a part of the game and you will see it in any contact sport.

Why are we doing this? Kids really don't need to be educated on this kind of thing. I'm not all that proud of my past conduct but it was "do it" or sit on the bench.

I do hope things are a bit different these days.

Yep. Knees and ankle are areas off limits, and any opponent who targeted said had harm come to them within a play or two.

Thrown Elbows too, I hated that, and think it unsportsmanlike. (I NEVER through an elbow, EVER)

Danm Quid! I think we played against each other like every game in HS! :) You were the little bastard always grabbing, poking, pushing, etc.!!!!

I was the opposite. Wasn't good at grabbing, wrestling, overmatching players by strength (6-3", 215 lbs in HS) but on the fast dribble , or twisting, spinning, jumping through defenders towards hoop, I excelled.

Played against some BIG dudes (6-11"+), who grab, pull uniform, hook, etc, who knocked me all over with one hand. I HATED that. The refs NEVER see grabbing and uniform pulling like they do a shot block attempt, or a slap at at the ball. :(

Yes, the inbounds, "no look" pass off the face is great for guys "trapping" you.

I did that "volleyball spike to the head" but we called it a "hammer", and as I wasn't doing it intentional;ly, I missed the ball but landed on his collarbone.

That Pokie Thing to the solar plexes? LOL! I was gonna list that, but never knew what it was called. Hurt so bad,

Being the scorer, I had to conserve my fouls (hand in the face instead of trying to shotblock, for example) because I usually got charging fouls, (most bad calls by the refs) as I drove hard to the hoop 15-30 times a game, often with 2, 3 or 5 defenders all trying to take charges. :(

Soccer and Basketball are officially non-contact sports.

The only people that really believe that have never played soccer or basketball.

I said officially. (except for boxing out, fighting through screens, technically all player contact is a foul in hoops, and from what I've seen in soccer all contact is a foul/card.)

Didn't say their wasn't contact ;)

Score points!! Must have been fun Smokey. Most of the time I would get a couple put backs but that was it.

Once I scored 20 (all 2's -- no three pointers in those days) points in about 5-6 minutes in the first quarter of a game. No big deal really, the other team had us scouted and knew I almost never shot the ball. It's pretty easy to get a bucket if you are 4 feet from the hole and no one is guarding you.

Coach pulled me and benched me for the rest of that game and the next. Wasn't running the offense and 'who do you think you are' . . . selfish . . .

You really cannot win when playing high school sports.

mjc

Football isn't no contact- it is the nature of the contact. That woman earned about 6 red cards in those clips- retaliation is straight off.

What seems to be acceptable now is 'trailing leg' to make sure the defender gets you, and the pundits all go on about how it is a clear foul- idiots.

The hair pull in the soccer game was so vicious it could have snapped a neck. I think that qualifies as beyond the pale. Anything that has a high probability of injuring or crippling should be banned.

As for the rest, I guess whatever the refs let you get away with is OK. Laws are only as good as their enforcement. Annd that applies to REAL LIFE too. We don't need more laws; we need enforcement of laws in place.

When I played football in High Schol there was a game where the Defensive End gave me several head slaps with his forearm. After each play he would tap his forearm with his other hand as I came up to the line shakeing the cobwebs out of my head. After a few of those I went for his knee what is now called a chop block. As I came back up to the line seeing him limpping I tapped my shoulder and and looked at his knee. No more head slaps.

Both were actions were unsportsmanlike conduct.

If the idea is to disable the other player than that is unsportsmanlike conduct and should be penalized.

Terry

I played football at a small Catholic highschool, mostly Basque, Italian and Mexican student body.

Our nose tackle used to chew cloves of garlic all day before a game, get down in the center's face and just breathe 'death breath' on him. It was good for at least 2 bad snaps per game and if that didn't work he'd just spit a huge loogie on the ball.

One road game the OG and OT opposite me were holding me big-time and the refs weren't calling it. After half-time I turned my class ring around and did a head-slap swim move and was in the QB's grill before the OT opened his eyes back up.

I saw new video! The hair pull takedown WAS acceptable! The other girl had a hold of her shorts, and was pulling them. Seriously, I saw it last night. Kinda hot! :O

I grabbed a teamate who was just standing outside the crease, from the back of the head, and threw/smashed him, head first into the Goal cross bar, so hard it knocked the goal off the magnets, because the puck was just outside the crease to the side, getting swatted at by both team's players, and as goalie, I couldn't get over the player and dive on it.

Figured, "that will stop the game, get us a whistle". The poor kid, after a minute or two of "down time" prostrate on the ice, was not convinced it was absolutely neccessary for him to be sacrificed, but indeed it was. First Playoff game, we are up 2-1 late, and I ain't giving up a goal just to spare the feelings of a teamate!

BTW, refs didn't know what to do, LOL! They had to do something to me, and reached a decision. 2:00 "Delay of Game" penalty on me. Oh well, we killed the penalty, won the game, moved to Florida and I get the money!

Our nose tackle used to chew cloves of garlic all day

Brilliant! This is the definition of Unsportmanlike – nasty yet legal. Most of the rest of this thread is just plain cheating. In football there is a convention if your player is down badly hurt and you just kick the ball out, on the restart after treatment the throw in is passed straight back to the team who kicked the ball out. However it would be perfectly legal for the team throwing in to keep the ball- an Arsenal player (alledgedly ignorant of the convention because he was foriegn) did this, and was roundly condemed, yet had broken no laws.