"When did 'then'" Topic

acquire the same meaning as 'than'?

I'm seeing it more and more. And the more I see it, the more certain I become that we have bred a generation of illiterate idiots.

I'm fine with words changing meaning… new words coming into common use… language is plastic… but lately it seems that it's kind of an 'anything goes'… a wide range of spelling and words that the writer expects to be accepted… and woe to the 'spelling/grammar police' who try to correct them.

I'm fine with ignorance, it can be corrected… it's stubborn/willful ignorance that ticks me off.

I'm fine with words changing meaning too, but in this case it's substitution – either wilfully or through ignorance.

We already have a perfectly good word to use as a conjunction or preposition, and another perfectly good one to use as an adverb. They do NOT mix 'n' match.

Whenever the uncultured take control, the homonyms are always among the first to go.

Are you sure it isn't an accent problem?

Another possibility is it could be a temporary fad. For a while in the early '90's, I was hearing "Who?" as a replacement for "What?"

"Excuse me. Could you tell me the time?"

- 2 o'clock

"Who?"

Are you sure it isn't an accent problem?

Not when it's typed on a bloody web forum, no.

Note I said 'seeing' not 'hearing'. Reading and comprehension seem to have taken a big hit too

"Not when it's typed on a bloody web forum, no."

It depends. Are the reader's lips moving?

Probably. I imagine their monitors are streaked with grease from where they've followed the words with their fingers too.

My apologies. The term "seeing" had the connotation of "experiencing" from my point of view.

If the term "reading" was used instead, then I may have fully comprehended your rant. I say "may" because I have not seen/read the then-than switch to which you refer.

(Good grief. I just realized I really talk that way.)

(Good grief. I just realized I really talk that way.)

You say that as though it's a bad thing.

I have not seen/read the then-than switch to which you refer.

It's rife within this very forum.

It could of been when about the same time people began interchanging 'of' and 'have'.

Yes. Thanks for mentioning that :(

On the reading comprehension issue, I commend this thread to you:

TMP link

If you're close enough, please go take Dom out for a pint.

Allen

He's about 60-70 miles away I reckon. I'd happily stand him a pint to help him get over the loss of his banana

Read it. Does rather make you wonder doesn't it?

See? What did I tell you. The misuse of the aprostrphe "s" is just the gateway to the horrors of miscommunication and misinformation.

We might as well surrender to the Third World right now.

The 'sole purpo'se of the apo'strophe nowaday's 'seem's to be nothing more than to 'signal that the next letter i's an "S".

One can never overgrammaticatify.

Ever.

its the English. You just cant trust them to be grammatical.

Perhaps the realisation of the fact that only one in five people on this planet has english as native or second language would help to calm your nerves, Connard. Personally I am always stupified over the amount of snorky comments regarding spelling/gramatical mistakes on TMP. Not everybody has majored in english at Cambridge, deal with it.

Perhaps the realisation of the fact that only one in five people on this planet has english as native or second language would help to calm your nerves, Connard.

I bet the native English speaking/other language demographic is much different on TMP though. Sorry to destroy your argument.

Anyway, many people who have English as their second language are much better at using it than native English speakers. They have been taught properly and their mistakes have been corrected. Many of the then/than culprits are British or American, if their profiles are to be believed.

I didn't 'major in English at Cambridge'. I left school with English lang and lit O levels, and joined the army – not as an officer either. I then spent a good few years afterwards as a manual worker. Then, and now, I can usually manage to use my native language properly, and if a working class bloke from the English Midlands can do it, it ain't rocket surgery.

Lastly, this is the ranting board, and I'm ranting. So yah boo.

I really must get a blog

Grammar police are among the most annoying persons on the planet.

I don't have any angst over morphing language, and it's a good thing too, since the Net has speeded up the morphing by several magnitudes.

Get over it, for your own health and well being.

Even as we speak/write, the descent into figure writing has deepened: look at all the acronyms, some of the damned things are even over half a dozen letters long: it's like "writing" in cuniform or Chinese ferpetesake's: and it isn't going to go away: before the century is out, "English" will largely be "spelled" in acronyms. Than your objection will seem less then absurd….

Going forward [another idiocy] we'll all be texting. The papers my students hand in seem to have a certain conversational/texting tone to them – and no spell-check (which does not take the place of proof-reading) either.

"bred a generation of illiterate idiots"

Nope. Fewer illiterates in the US and Great Brittian in 2008 then 1908.

Besides, 'idiots' a bit harsh don't you think?

Yes, I apologise to any idiots whose intelligence I may have impugned by lumping them in with the profoundly stupid.

Nope. Fewer illiterates in the US and Great Brittian in 2008 then 1908.

You have to love irony. I trust the 'then' was deliberate though and included for comedic effect??

I'm looking forward to the days when I receive a written message full of phonetically spelled words, acronyms, exchanged homonyms, and the texting words that incorporate numbers, etc. which make the message totally incomprehensible and I can just delete them all right out!
Then I can go read a book that follows the rules of English spelling and grammar and it will all make coherent sense.

Have you ever considered that English is not the first language of many both here in the United States (where the debate can be American is not English) and on TMP?

I find it bigoted at best and down right fascist (cant use the N work here) in the extreme that some believe the current edition, or edition of Webster's that they used in high school in 1956, is the only form of the language that is acceptable on the net.

I speak four languages working on five, read & write in three and am horrible in all, including English/American.

If you want to be upset about language usage go after abbreviations and acronyms.

ROFLOL, FWIW, IMHO.
VR
James Mattes

"I trust the 'then' was deliberate though and included for comedic effect??"

Why would you do that? You immediately assume everyone around you is a moron. Why would you treat me any different?

Why would you do that? You immediately assume everyone around you is a moron. Why would you treat me any different?

Most of the people around me are quite intelligent, a few are exceptionally intelligent. Random people on the internet are a different matter. If the only proof you have of someone's intellectual capability is what they write and the way they write it, it's hard not to make value judgements.

So. Don't want to be treated like a moron? Don't write like a challenged schoolchild in your first language.

…and txt spk is rite out :)

I think, in fairness, CS was making observations about those whose primary language is(or should be!) English. So, no, not facist or bigoted.
Typing has drawbacks, though one benefit is the ability to proof-read, and reconsider, what one has just written. Laziness with the language – texting, instant messaging, blogs and comments – is the norm nowadays. People do not seem to have the discipline to leave those 'bad' habits in the domains where they belong, but bring them with them to areas where they should show more care and discrimination. Their mouth (or finger)gets ahead of their brain.
The general laziness of not checking what one just spewed forth causes all kinds of trouble not least of which is others thinking you might be a complete moron. If you are limited in the expression of your primary language try to keep things short, and check your spelling. Business, and other careers require more than ridiculous text accronyms and abysmal grammar.

"it's hard not to make value judgements"

If the value judgements are wrong then what good are they? If not all people that do not through ignorance, stupidity, or laziness distinguish the difference between 'then' and 'than' in their written speech are stupid freaking morons then what's the point of the judgement? What good does it do you? Does it do harm? Hell yes, it does harm. Many people in this world battle issues with dyslexia and other related problems. They read this tripe and see one more person calling them stupid.

And before anyone starts, this isn't modern liberal PC garbage. Matt 7:1-5 "Judge not lest ye be judged" isn't modern and isn't a political statement.

Oh calm down.

I see then/than mixed all the time on more mainstream fora than this y little backwater. Are you trying to tell me they're ALL dyslexics, even when the rest of their missives are correctly spelt? Grow up, not everything in this world is a personal attack. Not everything in this world is fair either.

Regarding which

One of my school friends was/is dyslexic (before the term was a popular excuse for laziness). He left school with 5 A levels (in an era when incorrect spelling would lose marks), went to uni, got a 1:1. He retired at 50 and now lives in Normandy in a 6 room house surrounded by several hectares of its own land. I don't think he's stupid, and he doesn't mix then/than either. And if he was reading this he'd be laughing.

I'm going to throw in here to make the point that, at least in the American university system, there is *supposed* to be an attempt at an English composition and grammar requirement that teaches this sort of difference.

Most students take this course in their freshman year, then they'll take a composition course tailored for their major (if they're lucky), and promptly forget all the rules of English writing. Why remember them, when word processing programs have tools built in to catch your errors for you? The fact that these programs don't always work as intended is lost on students, to both their detriment and that of the language.

I'll easily admit that I am not "an expert on the finer points of writing and speaking the English Language." All of those years in Texas, and Kentucky, seems to have derailed that…
However, that being said, we do know that English being a living language, changes due to social, cultural, technical, and ethnic changes as well. It conforms, and adapts to them, and allows each new generation of "speakers" to use it however horrible they may be.
As for the "tt" in "Brittain"…it's just possible, (could it be), that it was a simple typo?
I do it all the time. And sadly enough many of us who write a lot, (especially after long hours behind the keyboard), DO make mistakes, and when "re-reading them", we know what we are saying so our mind "overrides" the typo.

People who speak and write "intelligently" can be often-times just as "stupid", in other senses. Former GF of mine has a masters degree in English Literature, and is a writer AND teacher, and speaks very VERY proper English (most of the time)…Highly intelligent woman…but didn't know how to put gasoline into her own car at the service station. I had to show her that.

We're all people. Plain and simple. If you see something that someone has written and the structure, grammar, spelling, etc. of the first couple of sentences bothers you that much. Stop reading it.

No need to relax, I'm not upset. You like to argue and I thought I'd give you a go.

"Grow up."

At 35, I'm pretty sure I'm 'grown up.' May put on a few pounds and learn more about life as the years roll along, but I'm pretty surt I'm already 'grown up.'

"they're ALL dyslexics"

Nope, didn't say they were ALL dyslexics. What did you say about reading comprehension? Some may be and find offense with the remark. Others may be parents of children with these issues who may similarly take offense. And if people can take offense for a judgement with no value (I, by the way, noticed how you didn't defend how little worth this 'value judgement' provides) then why make the judgement at all?

And you know you're about to read a solid argument when it starts out with…

"One of my school friends…"

Does this person exist? Does this person suffer from dyslexia or make the described achievements? Would this person really laugh? And even if this person laughs, does this persons oppinion speak for all those who may be offended? If we were arguing in court, they'd call this hearsay. Essentially, there's no way for me to refute the assertion. How about, I spoke to a man who spoke to God and he said God said you were wrong. My guy spoke to God and you only know an old man who retired early therfore I win.

And finally, even if the person is a complete moron with a sub 90 IQ, is there any reason to call them stupid to their face or on the net?

If you met a woman who suffers from alopecia ugly to her face? Granted, a woman in our society derives much of her beauty from her hair. Technically, you would be correct; she's ugly. You could probably design some sort of scientific test to prove that she is consider less attractive then other women. But would you be right to do so? What are you achieving by making such a statement? Oh, you say this is the net and not to her face. So you write up how ugly this chick was with no hair on TMP. So you didn't say it to her face. But what about all the women who suffer from alopecia, or the husbands and fathers and mothers, of these women who read these statements?

What prompts you to start a thread on stupid people? What does it do for you? Does it make you feel better about your lot in life?

Implying that I'm a liar isn't helping your argument. Neither is ranting about my ranting

I suggest you hit the stiffle (sic) button here TMP link

Adub wrote:

[…] Does this person exist? Does this person suffer from dyslexia or make the described achievements?

I personally know of one person with dyslexia who's quite an accomplished neurosurgeon. Dyslexia has nothing to do with intelligence. Why would you assume that such a person would not be capable of such accomplishments?

I don't get overly excited about what's written here on TMP. It is a bit disconcerting to see gross errors in professional publications.

- Bob

I speak four languages working on five, read & write in three and am horrible in all, including English/American.

Thats impressive. I don't have that level of dedication. But I am multilingual to some degree. I speak English, Australian, German (poorly)and "in tongues" and can also understand "wifespeak".

I like the English language to be used correctly and I concur with the sentiments expressed above. However, not everyone can use it correctly; I am an awful speaker of German and I can see people cringe when I open my mouth and attempt to speak it. However, I make every effort to ensure that my first language is written and spoken correctly. Language does change and I accept that, but I won't accept simple errors such as a lack of capitalisation, simple punctuation errors or obvious spelling errors. However, my biggest pet hate is the word "like". For example, "And I'm like, lets go and she's like, why and I'm like, because, and she's like maybe. Alternatively the word "goes" such as "And I go, lets go and she goes, why and I go, because and she goes, maybe".

Now, ill sit back and let someone pick the bits outa wot I just wrote and haveago at me spelling and everythink.

Stop hanging out at the mall!

CS, what makes you a better judge of kanguage then a 14 year old?
==
Ti m

its the English. You just cant trust them to be grammatical.

One assumes that this is an attempt at irony. If it is not then Ravenscraft should check whether the walls of his house are indeed made of glass ;-). Or may be it's just a typo.

Allen- there is a difference between the natural change to a language over time, and the bastardisation of it out of laziness or affectation. I have listened to too many young men ad their 'Jafaken' accents. One lad who was almost unintelligible had nice working class parents with Essex accents (Think Billie Piper). I'm sure he didn't grow up sounding like a 'gangsta' from a bad US cop series.

Is that a dialect spoken by kangaroos?

I find it bigoted at best and down right fascist

I believe that the Communists were equally as overbearing and restrictive of personal freedom as the fascists. At least that is what my history books tell me.

Blue Fez! Blue Fez!!

"I believe that the Communists were equally as overbearing and restrictive of personal freedom as the fascists. At least that is what my history books tell me."

Absolutely. Madame Krupskaya (Lenin's wife) strove to improve education and increase literacy: horrible infringments on personal liberty.

Most of the people around me are quite intelligent, a few are exceptionally intelligent. Random people on the internet are a different matter. If the only proof you have of someone's intellectual capability is what they write and the way they write it, it's hard not to make value judgements.

My desk is hard, my head may be hard, but tasks are difficult. :-)

LLC aka Ron and his hard head