"Apparently I can't know about the double tap" Topic

As in two to the chest a shooting drill

The whole thing started when some guy asked if anybody in norway as a lisence to kill.
I said the closest you get is the Norwgian police live guard service(like a norwegan secret service)
They are the only police that go armed at all times while on duty.
I said that if they had a person that made a clear and present danger, they could take the shot, to protect their guy or civilens or them self. They don't need to call for backup or ask for permsion to shoot, they might or might not call out a warring before shooting.
And when they have to shoot, they shoot to kill with two to the chest, mabye even an extra to the head if the persion is very close or might be wearing a vest.
Then suddenly this guy starts talking about shooting people in the leg, and I try to explane that if someone in the life guard service HAS to shoot, he damn well shoots to kill, becasue when a situation has come to actualy having to fire of live rounds, you don't go around trying to wound people, that will only lead to more dangures situations.

But the guy continues as starts talkng about that I can't know what they would de becase thir tactics are secret.
And I try to explane that this is standard Praxis for ALL police and military unit around the world, simply becasue it works it makes sence its logical.
If you have to use leathal force, you use LEAHAL force.
If you have to fire live ammo the has hit the fan, and starting to take pot shots at legs or arms will only get you and other civilians killed.
Police has sevral non leathal methods of stopping people but, you don't go trying to make a leathal gun non leathal by playing cowboy.

But the guy is still adement that I can't know what they do as it's secret, and I have been watching to many movies.
So this mean as I know about the double tap, and i know that they use it, it must therfore mean that the double tap is a super secret weapon nobody should know about, but i do, so I know a secret

Er, yes. OK. Rocky will be along shortly.

Er……….

I was trained (USAF) to fire three rounds center of mass – torso. I could see a sniper shooting to disable a suspect that is not a threat but that is about it.

Technically you shoot to stop the offenders actions…. Two to the chest, one to the head is called failure drills. At least here in Texas it is.

You shoot what you can hit, and where it is guaranteed to stop him. If you are not trying to stop him, why shoot?

We used to have a joke in bad taste that you get "Hearing Aids" from listening to too many s…
Add "arguing" with too many…

***********EDIT***********
Do the math on my bleep.

"super secret weapon nobody should know about"

To which the only reasonable reply is "I am so sorry, now we will have to kill you."

I'm trained to STOP the threat as quickly as possible. If lethal force is required to stop that threat, my trianing is two shots center mass (upper chest, prefered over lower) and assess situation.

That might mean two more shots or not. It is all based upon if the threat to myself and others has been stopped.

We also train for "body armor" drills where we believe the bad guy is wearing body armor. That is two shots to center mass and one to the head.

As stated before, we train to STOP the threat. We do NOT train to shoot to kill. That might be the result, but we train to protect ourselves and others with the least force required.

We NEVER train to shot someone in the leg. Knee-capping is not part of my training.

Let your acquaintance continue blissfully living in his Hollywood dreamworld and hope they never get into the position of finding out. Like you said, if you have to draw a weapon, the situation has already reached lethal.

"Knee-capping is not part of my training."

But is, on occasion, very entertaining.

Man this guy just won't quit.
I did this LONG explenation about the use on non lethal weapons and how they are more and more used, but if it comes to a point were you have to use live ammo, you shoot to stop who ever you shoot at.

And all he got from my post was that I said nobody is trained to shoot legs or cocks(a refrence to that he didn't belive people weren't rained to shoot low)

So out a explenation that took my 15minutes to write he only got that one sentence into his head

Hi

The irony was that 9mmk was specifically selected by european police because of its low rate of lethality. 9mm "parabellum" because it was supposed to do the same as a battlefield back up.

My extended family is involved in state politics, and everytime a gun question comes to congress, I end up talking to the congress type who is associated with the family. I find it odd that, even though they represent a rural western state, they have NO MORE IDEA about these things than your idiot friend, Gunfreak.

"sniper" gets overused, by the way.

Rocky

I think he gets confused by that fact that norway is a very non gun country, or there are LOTOS of guns, about 2.5 million legaly regisert guns, and they think about 800 000 more iligal or forgotten.

So well of 50% of the population has a gun(in theory) in reality, those that own guns, own like 10+ of them

There is no real casual shooter in norway, because you can't casualy own a gun, it has to be for

1. Hunting/ vermin extermination
2. Sport
3. military/police

As I said regular police don't go around armed, so there is very little public guns in the steets.
This I think confuses him to think that norwegian police use some sort of Sesame Street way of shooting guns.
And that he dosn't understand the basic if it works, everybody uses it.
Yes there are very few if any shootings in norway invovling police and yes most police are ametures, the expetion beeing the body guard serivce and our version of swat, theise guys are pro and would follow the standard drill of other special police uints.

Actually, Gunfreak, I think he is yanking your chain and you would do well to ignore him.

Gunfreak,
I understand your frustration with dealing with someone who won't listen in a country where guns are a strange idea to most people.
Here in the UK guns are even rarer than they are in Norway. Few people can afford to hunt and since Dumblane the only people who own handguns are criminals. Even our Olympic shooting team have to train abroad.
In service our training was single aimed shots to the centre of the visible mass. This is slightly different to the double tap doctrine that our friends over the pond use because every time a terrorist in Ulster got slotted some ing lawyer tried to show that we had used unreasonable force so the rules got changed. We weren't even allowed to shoot anyone running away from us no matter what they had done.

Back in the day when we actually pulled guard duty on something that required a little more lethality than a bunk adapter, we were told that we had to fire at least two 'warning' shots in the air before we could actually fire on target. Of course it was taken for granted that the first round would be to the head and the next two in the air.

Well now the guy is saying that if you are a civilian, and you shoot a man twice and the chest and ever worse if you put another in his head for safey, you have crossed voer from self defence to exection.

I tried to explane that as long as he is moving ESPECALY if he is still standing he is an dangure to me and my loved once, and I damn well shot him until he stays down, and in norway everybody use vest, so I would by default asume he had one, and take aproriate action by putting one in his head,
ofcourse this is all theoretical as stuff like that rearly happens, and when it happes it national guard guys going crazy shooting friends and family.
Criminals only shoot other criminals,(with like 3 expetions in the last 15 years)
So it's not realy an usue, but it's it's still an theoretical senario.
If two terrorist jump though my window with AK, and I for some reason happen to have a loaded gun with me(this is technaly iligal as you should only have loaded guns on the range or in the woods while hunting)
But If I happend to have one, I would make DAMN sure they didn't have a chance to get up again and spray my house with fire from their AK's

Why are you still arguing with him?

Shikata ga nai John, shikata ga nai.

Ah, so.

As in two to the chest a shooting drill

Oh, good. I thought you meant the foot-tap thing… you know, the one the Senator from Idaho got into trouble over…

Oppiedog 02 Aug 2009 12:37 p.m. PST
Back in the day when we actually pulled guard duty on something that required a little more lethality than a bunk adapter, we were told that we had to fire at least two 'warning' shots in the air before we could actually fire on target. Of course it was taken for granted that the first round would be to the head and the next two in the air.

*NJH: Part of my riot training, in the early 70's, was the oft repeated admonition to never ever fire a warning shot while deployed for riot duty. If we fired our weapon it had to be for the specific purpose of killing someone, not wounding nor stopping. Our trainers were quite adamant about this point.

I recall being told that if someone was coming at you with a gun you shoot them in the lower torso, not upper. Point being, upper torso and they will still be upright and possibly able to fire back, lower torso they tend to fold so won't fire back.

Ok, now they are realy going crazy.

Starts adding "but what if the guy has a knife and not a gun"

And point out that there has been police shootings where the cops have shot at legs.

My respone to the first one is that a knife dosn't have a reach of sevral yards, I would still shot the , but a single shot to the chest would do, followed by a nother if the guy is still running at me, this is ofcouse if he is some distance from me, if they guy is at point blank range, then a quick double tap is what is needed.
The diffrence is that if I shoot the guy once he can lay on the floor squeeming as much as he wants, as long as I stay out of stapping range he can't hurt me, naturaly this dosn't count for a gun, as it has a reach of sevral meters in not tens of meters.

My second is that just becasue regular beat cops can't use guns propperly dosn't mean they havn't been trained better, and just are to stupid to follow the praxis.
The avrage norwegian cop trains like 14 weeks a year at shooting.
I'm talking about special units with much better traing and contuinus shooting practice like the bodyguard service or the SWAT guys

When you argue with idiots they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

my suggestion…. Stop arguing with an idiot

Hi

Round here we have a saying: "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

And when my wife asked I said "shoot all the bullets even after he is stopped. Better in court to cry and say "I am so sorry, I don't know what happened, I pulled the trigger and he stopped. But then I realized the gun was not making noise!

As opposed to the cold blooded seeming "i put two to the chest and one to the head". The first suggests panic and fear, the second, calculation.

Last thing to ever mention is that you shoot 10,000 rounds a year!

Rocky

I loved Jackanory as a kid…

"As opposed to the cold blooded seeming "i put two to the chest and one to the head". The first suggests panic and fear, the second, calculation"

Acutaly I like that, but then I'm a cold hard facts kinda guy.

If i were in a jury and somenoe said that, I would think, ah someone who had taken the time to learn how to use a gun and use it well, which I find quite reasurring, as to many people buy guns and never learn how to use them, and become more dangures then asailents.

If want want cold and hard, try reading the report of the SAS Iranian Embassy seige: link

I train police and private security officers in Southern California. You shoot to stay alive or keep other innocent people alive. A double tap has been around for probably 50 years or more. Hardly a secret. Send him to my police blog for all kinds of similar information.

Mike "Bunkermeister" Creek
sgtsays.blogspot.com

Looks like the thead has finnaly died.

But aperantly what you(americans) say don't count as you are americans and are all gun crazy that go around shooting people just for fun.

The whole point of the descussion has now gone over to what is acptable force. Even in norway you can kill to save you and your loved once, but you can't do exesive force.
And i say as long as they are conscious and have a gun in thier hand they are a BIG dangure to me and my loved once, and the only way to make sure they drop and stay down and loose Consciousness is to put to in the chest followed by one in the head if neceseray

Hi

I have lived in countries in the third world where the defined "acceptable force" was "fair". As a large american, HE was allowed a weapon, but If I used a weapon, I was excessive.

If he had a gun, THEN I could have a knife!

Rocky

Spike Milligan reading the 'Old Man of Lochnagar' was one of my favourites.

Sooooo His tag is "Gunfreak."

He is living in a country that has rather strict gun control, yet he goes by "Gunfreak."

And apparently discusses/argues about the use of guns.

I am retired USMC who does not even own a gun yet we Americans do not matter "…as you are americans and are all gun crazy that go around shooting people just for fun."

Once again – Who is the Gunfreak?

As I said, it was the other guy that said it not me.

My name is gunfreak becasue I am I gun freak, I've liked guns and any thing that goes bang since I was 5. Started shooting at 15, I can tell you I got a lot of flak for liking guns when I went to junior high, as it wasn't normal.
But it runs in the family my cousins and their father is the same way.

There are lots of gun totting norwegians, but they normaly don't develop the intrest intil they are older

*ghasp* You're Little Neddie Niederlander!

Just kidding Gunfreak. It's a Three Amigos reference, great movie, you should watch it if you haven't.

I've been lucky enough to never in my life hear a shot fired in anger, only in sport and folly. So I let the guys who've been there argue about tactics. What do I know?

I think that is the first time I've heard "Three Amigos … great movie" in the same sentance. :)

Gunfreak – apologies, then – by the way you were posting it sounded like YOU were the one saying Americans opinions did not count because we shoot at everyone for fun…

Hard to decipher some of your grammar there…

Hi

He's not a native 'merican speaker. Sheesh. Most of the native speakers around her are often challenged this way. I prefer to assume the best rather than be prickly about it.

But I had a bad upbringing. Ironically, when not in warzones, american military who own guns on base are required to keep them stored in a government locker. As in the same rules as during old days in the USSR.

And in my growing up with an ops guy as my dad, I owned my first pistol at 8, always had a weapon, and it was NEVER stored "legally".

Rocky

Thanks for the link, Geoff. I'm surprised I had forgotten about this incident, but then I was 14 or 15 at the time.

I used to think Norway was a good place.

But if people like Gunfreak are legally allowed to own firearms I may have to revise my opinion.

Why? Becasue I happen to know how do defend my self? Or how to use a gun?

I don't own any guns at the moment, as I havn't had the need for any, but I'm starting with cowboy shooting, again these guns aren't for protection they are for recreation, only people the own guns for protection is criminals regular people don't need it, as criminals don't break into houses armed with guns. Criminals on the other hand use guns only on other criminals.
Gun crime is extremely low, and half of them are done with airsoft guns. I think most murders are done with knives in norway, simply becasue very few people that legaly own guns use them to murder people, I can remeber one guy he was a gun colector and shot his x-wife, but that is the only murder I can remember were a other wise utstanding citizen used his legaly owned guns to murder in cold blood.

Well I talked to a friend of mine in the army, he is trained as a sharpshooter and sniper but has also lots of close combat training.

He tells me there are pensil pushers that do think you can shoot at legs when you are taking fire, but nobody listen to them, in praxis they are traind to shoot for the chest twice or more if needed, non in his units ever practice at shooting at legs, and naturaly when using high powerd rifles they take the kill shot.

Spent 21 years in the USMC (2yrs as a Marine Detachment Sharpshooter & mustered out as 16th award Rifle Expert), we were always taught aim and fire center mass.

Reason is all the variables – sighting for distance, wind, trigger pull, breath control, etc.; despite all the training over and over and over to mitigate those, best bet is ALWAYS center mass.

Hi

"Shoot to wound" is always promoted by nice people with good intentions who have no idea what the limits of guns and shooting are.

Rocky

Yeah, a shot to the thigh can kill just as easly as to the stomach or even chest(after all 99% of all death from gunshots are Exsanguination)

The body dosn't care if it bleeds out from the femoral artery or the pulmonary arteries. You die just has fast if not faster from the femoral artery, the only thing that kills faster is if you cut the aorta or a bullet straight to brain stem.

You are dead either way, the diffrence is that a bullet to the chest actualty stops most people from beeing able to shoot back, a shoot to the tigh dosn't