"(Bar Story) Yes, we have a "No Bulletproof Vests" policy." Topic

So, I've been working in bars on and off for 13 years now. Not entirely consecutively, but I've probably been working for 10 of the last 13 years as concert or band, nightclub or bar security. Most of the problems I deal with or see are variations on old themes; it's not too often that I see something entirely new and different.

Tonight (sunday the 15th) I saw something that I hadn't seen before.

A young guy (mid-20's), kind of chubby, otherwise nondescript, walked into the bar. I checked his ID, he was over 21, and he came in without any problems. I did notice that he was wearing an odd-looking military camo jacket… after he sat down at the bar I took a closer look at it, and much to my surprise it was a bulletproof vest! Not just a vest, but the full torso armor, with shoulderpads and neckguard – like I said, at first glance it appeared to just be a camo jacket.

So I walk over to the guy (I'm behind the bar)… "Hey, is that an armored vest?"

He looks up at me, quietly hostile – "Yeah."

I pause for a moment, thinking about it. I come to the conclusion that there is no reason in the world (that I can think of) that would make someone want to wear a bulletproof vest into my bar that would make me want to have that person sitting in the bar, near my own non-bulletproof self.

"Um… well, sir, I think you're going to have to leave".

A little more overtly hostile, he asks, "Yeah? Why?"

"I can't let you wear that in here, you'll have to leave".

"So, what, you have a policy against them?"

"Yeah, sure, we have a 'No bulletproof vests' policy."

He stands up and braces his hands on the bar, glaring at me across it. "I don't see a sign anywhere."

Now I'm confused. "uh… what?"

"You have to have a sign if you have a policy. I don't see your 'No Vests Allowed' sign. This is America. I have rights."

And now I've gone from confused to irritated. The guy seems sober, but he's obviously irrational. "Yeah, and here in America if someone owns a piece of private property he has the right to decide what happens on that property – "

He interrupts " – So you're the owner?"

I continue. "No, I'm not the owner, but I'm an authorized agent of the owner of this private business. You do NOT have a right to be here, and I'm telling you to leave now."

He takes a long pause, glaring at me. "OK then."

And then he stands up, straightens out his vest, and leaves. I follow a few feet behind him as far as the door, and watch him walk into the parking lot. He just gets into his truck and drives away, never even looking back.

Strange stuff, guys. I have no idea what was going on with him, but it was definitely an issue I've not had to deal with before. Guns, sure, but bulletproof vests? New one on me.

-Alex in Alaska

Have there been any new stories recently about deer shooting back?

Don't know about deer but you have to watch them turkeys.

link

We had an "issue" a few weeks ago when a club of about 20 "Open Carry" devotees came into an Olde Country Buffet, packing. Openly. They wanted to make a Statement.
Talk radio was full of it for a day or two.
It was established, I think, that they do have a right to carry firearms openly in PA, but the owner of the establishment can ask them not to. But, then, who would have the balls to ask? I gave up my job as KMart security because those old ladies were too tough for me.

What puzzled me were the callers who had no problem with Concealed Carry. (PA is a "the sherrif SHALL issue…) state.) But they did have a problem with them packing openly. That seemed backward to me. "I don't care if they come in the restaurant packing, as long as no one knows about it." ?!?!?

People who want to make statements to the public are frequently self-centred prima donnas. Doesn't much matter what their own issue is. Me, I'm big into hamster rights this month.

It's the difference between, "Those guys are probably jerks" and "Those guys are loudly celebrating their jerkdom."

What puzzled me were the callers who had no problem with Concealed Carry. But they did have a problem with them packing openly.

The theory is that guns are innately terrifying, and that open carry causes a public disturbance. I don't know why anyone other than a cop / rent-a-cop / armored car driver carrying openly would be more terrifying than the aforementioned categories, but what do I know? I don't find guns particularly scary, unless the user is doing something threatening/moronic with them.

OTOH, going out of your way to people off while armed isn't the most responsible thing in the world.
-Kle.

"Yeah, sure, we have a 'No bulletproof vests' policy."

Well, your bar, your rules.

I probably would've just let the guy drink, though.
-Kle.

Yeah… I thought about just leaving him alone, but the idea of a guy wearing a BP vest putting alcohol into himself just seemed like waaaay too many potential headaches for me to take a chance on it.

The bartender thought that he was wearing it to make himself look thinner.

*shrug*

I'm not always right – I make mistakes. I could have been wrong about the guy. But I got a real strong "creep" vibe from him, and it didn't seem worth the risk of letting him stay just to find out whether or not he would be OK.

Maybe he just wanted to be a Bulletproof Punk…………

Maybe it was a first step in a 'plan' that would end up with lots of dead bar patrons in a big shootout with the local police. I think you did the right thing.

You did the right thing. The dude may have been packing and after a shot or two of courage decided it was time to be the lead story on the local news. He also could have been the target of someone who had threatened him and the hunter could have showed up and caused collateral damage trying to take Mr. Vest out. Just no way to tell and with the safety of everyone in the bar at stake, I'd say that means if they make you nervous they take the train.

I think this falls into the category of shouting "fire' in a crowded theatre. We have lots of rights which, exercised just right, cause such harm or distress to others that the right is abrogated. A person can wave a gun shout "I'm going to kill you!" all he wants in the privacy of his garage, but if you do it in the presence of another person, its a crime. That's how it works.

A gentleman comports himself to put others at their ease. The whole "look how bad I am" thing is pretty much the opposite.

I think the "no good reason" argument is valid. Its one of those judgement calls, which is to say someone could construct a good counter-argument, but it was still the right thing to do.

Andrew

The only reason to wear armor is if you expect to get in a fight.

Option 1: He had the armor on for some earlier legitimate purpose (say, he hunts in an area where lots of hunters are, or he's a security guard, etc.) and simply forgot to remove it. (Hostile reaction tends to deny this.)

Option 2: The guy was scared of what might happen in a bar or the neighborhood around the bar. But his "tough" reaction to you makes me think otherwise.

Option 3: The guy has a mistaken notion that a bullet-proof vest is also knife, bat, chain, crowbar and broken bottle-proof, and expected to get into a bar fight.

Option 4: The guy was a nutter with survivalist leanings, though not particularly violent.

Option 5: The guy was a nutter with extreme violence contemplated.

Note that most of the above options are not particularly "good" ones. I think you made the right call. Had he not been hostile, I think you might have said something on the order of, "Look, I understand you might be concerned about a fight breaking out in a bar. I'm here to see that those things don't happen and nothing gets out of hand. And in this bar, nothing gets out of hand. Now when somebody comes in with a bullet-proof vest on, well, it makes me wonder what they're up to. And it's my job to make sure they're not up to anything. You need to understand: I don't know you; all I know is there's no reason you'd need that kind of armor here. Listen, you can relax here; nothing bad's going to happen to you. But I'm going to have to ask you to either remove the vest and turn it over to me for safekeeping while you're here, or you're going to need to go somewhere else."

But either way, I'd be kind of creeped out by the guy, too.

Bullet proof vest? Or flak-jacket? Sounds like a flak-jacket, but I don't know where you get those…The wearer sounds like he was just wearing it because he thought it looked tough. His idea of a fashion statement.

Like I say, I have no problem with you chucking the guy out.

OTOH, he pretty clearly wasn't building up to something, or he just would've gone from bar to bar until he found a place that let him drink, and you'd have read about him in the paper.

99% of people are harmless, even if they're weirdos.
-Kle.

Actually 10% are harmless, 10% are sociopaths and the remaining 80% are a few bad days away from a meltdown.

I didn't mean "incapable of harm", just extremely unlikely to be up to something at any given moment.

I think I've figured out what was going on, BTW. The guy was an RPG-er. He was always arguing with his GM that he wants to wear full armor everywhere he goes, and the GM keeps saying, "what, you think people won't look at you funny if you walk into a bar wearing armor? ". So he goes out to prove the GM wrong, and loses his bet – no wonder he was hostile.

C'mon, we've all known this guy…
-Kle.

99% of people are harmless, but if your job is to ensure the safety of a roomfull of people, do you want 99% of your days to be gunfight free?

Do you want 99% of airline flights to land safely?

The whole point of aircraft inspections and bouncers is that when something looks like it might be in that other 1%, you react strongly and you do it quick. Perhaps 99% of those reactions are unnecessary, but you don't know until you get involved.

Andrew

If the nurses in a nursery only drop 1% of the babies…
That's a pretty good success rate too.

0ption: he was just on his way to see "Iron Man" and stopped for a drink…..we all know of obsessed fans of this type…look at the "Shadowrun" criminal from the UK last year (or maybe it was 2006)….

Kle's story sounds plausible too, Or maybe he was playing his "Tough Gangrel Loner" in a VAmpire LARP.

But my money is on him working up to getting into some sort of ilelgal trouble…

99% of people are harmless, but if your job is to ensure the safety of a roomfull of people, do you want 99% of your days to be gunfight free?

Do you want 99% of airline flights to land safely?

Yes. Perfection is a silly standard.

The whole point of aircraft inspections and bouncers is that when something looks like it might be in that other 1%, you react strongly and you do it quick. Perhaps 99% of those reactions are unnecessary, but you don't know until you get involved.

Sure, for the aircraft inspectors.

In my experience, bouncers are a reactive force, not a preventative one. You're out in CA though, so I can see a different philosophy prevailing.
-Kle.

Maybe all his other jackets were at the cleaners.

Mind you, in certain parts of Limerick, armoured vests are a de rigeur fashion accessory for teenagers.

Frankly, I'd rather that bulletproof vests became the standard for "defense", instead of guns. Can't do much damage to others with a vest, and a gun has very little defensive value – it's an awfully unlucky shot that hits the gun instead of the person.

On the other hand, I've learned to trust my "this guy's a creep" instincts, and I wasn't there…

Actually Bouncers serve as both proactive and reactive. If they can spot trouble soon enough an head it off before it becomes physical it is proactive and most owners would prefer that to the brawl that could erupt when reactive action becomes necessary.

Any idea what prompted the bar to decide it needed a "no body armour" policy?

*I* certainly try to be proactive – it's always preferable to try to prevent a problem from happening in the first place. The guy was giving off a definite creep factor – and that in and of itself isn't enough to turn away his business (there are always creeps around), but the creep factor combined with the hostile reaction and the armored vest were enough to justify it in my mind.

I'm reactive when I have to be – it'd be impossible to anticipate every possible problem before it happens. Drunk people (especially in large groups) are unpredictable. But whenever possible I try to prevent situations from escalating, BEFORE problems happen. Sometimes that means I jump to conclusions, and I'm not always right, but I'm *ususally* right. I've been doing this for over a decade. I'm not sure how well I'd do at a high scale nightclub in Vegas or an underground hip-hop gang hangout in Brooklyn, but I can handle Fairbanks Alaska pretty consistently well.

-Alex

I am not a frequenter of bars, but were I, I would opt for the one with preemptive bouncers. If I occasionally get asked what's in my suspicious bag, where's the harm? I have to tell the airline people who packed my luggage, that hasn't hurt me yet.

What of privacy? Its an important right, and growing more important by the week. I have the right for my person to be secure from unreasonable search and siezure, but at the moment something on my person appears to be a threat to others, the "hey, what's that?" becomes a reasonable inquiry.

I've had to explain some pretty silly things to law enforcement, event staff, etc, over the years, but I've never had any real trouble because I've never been up to trouble. I knew I had invited inquiry by my curious behavior. So there you go.

Andrew

I'll also mention that had the guy not been hostile towards me, if he'd had… any explanation that was at all reasonable, I probably would have let him stay (most likely would have asked him to put the armor back in his vehicle). But his immediate reaction of hostility and knee-jerk claiming of non-existant rights confirmed my earlier "this guy is creepy" feelings.

Hmm, I've never had an interest in flak jackets but I did look into getting some Kata vests for some trips to Papua New Guinea.

Probably had something to do with the first trip there, and being stuck in a landcruiser mired in mud, with a nice bullet hole pattern down the side.

Was in St Petersburg (Russia) a while back. ALL the bouncers at clubs and bars wear full-on military flak jackets……

There are a few clubs that I've seen where the staff has to wear armored vests.

Why anyone would want to patronize an establishment where getting shot is a standard hazard is beyond me.

As a Bartender, ya notice how flaky people get during a full Moon?