"Cursed Town Zoning Board!!!" Topic

OK, so I'm planning on building a new deck off the back of my house. So we make some concept sketches and go to the Home Depot, since they will make up a nice set of plans, and materials list. We take the plans to the town, and they reject them, since they are on 8.5x11 a sheets and not blue print size.

We tell them we don't know how to do that. They respond that your contractor and/or architect should be able to make them no problem. We tell them we are building it ourselves, to which they reply, "Good Luck with that!"

It's like they don't want to make it easy to do the "right thing" and get the permits, rather they want me to just build it illegally…

What a flawed system!
Now I have to remember my Engineering Graphics class from 20 years ago, or hire a draftsman.

What a pain in the butt!

Did you ask where in the code it requires 24"x36" sheets?

The other option is to take them to Kinkos and enlarge them to the required size.

Here is what that is: You have got a little person who is the king of his (or her) little kingdom. They tend to take joy in making people do things their way. In short it is just a little power trip.

It is not a little power trip. Working for the Public Works Department myself where I live…we try to standardize everything so everyone is treated the same and our storage, scanning, and archival system isn't trying to deal with a hundred different sizes of paper. "Blue Print size" is not a set size but a series of sizes…hopefully they told you which one they wanted.

Typical sheet sizes are 36x42, 24x36, 22x34 (usually used since it's a direct 50% reduction to 11x17), 18x24, and 11x17. 8-1/2 x 11 is typically only used for specification details or spot change orders. We won't accept 8.5x11 either because we don't have enough room to make comments, stamp the drawings with signature blocks or recording numbers. 11x17 is our minimum submittal size allowed.

If the plans were drawn on CAD or similar electronic type system, then it's a very simple process to plot them out on the designated size. If the local copy shops can't do it, try to find a blueprint shop. Some offer plotting services.

pphalen – Take a look at the link below(or other similar sites). They offer free generic deck plans and materials lists. I am sure there are other sites that do the same.

link

It may not be everything you need, but it is a start.

It is ridiculous that they have to approve something like that in the first place. Who cares?

That seems like it should be something that your home insurance company should be concerned about not your local government.

You have my heartfelt sympathies.

I hate zoning, but I'm a demographic of one…
-Kle.

If they wanted to treat all people the same, they would accept 8.5 x 11 as it's the most universally accepted form of paper in the world, and generally the only commercially available paper. If courts can accept regular sized paper, arguably so should the permit org.

It's a shame that you can't do what you want with your own property, especially when it comes to something as simple as a deck. These permit boards also just tack their fees right onto your taxes if you petition against them. Had a wonderful experience with the town damaging my landscaping with their ice removal. The damage was in the hundreds of dollars to the lawn and the paved stonework (on my property line, not the sidewalk). They had the nerve to send me a bill for it – of well over $200. USD I happen to know that it took all of 20 seconds to scrape my sidewalk with that machine.

If it doesn't affect anyone else's property, why should it be limited. So much for Live Free or Die.

Ask for the exact size they need, ask if there are any paper requirements, then go back to Home Depot and ask them for help. They might even tell you that you don't need a permit (they do this sort of stuff all the time and if they're in your neighborhood, they should know). Otherwise, get thee to FedExKinkos!

Good luck.

Go buy the size paper they want, paste your paper in the middle.

Thank God our permit office is over worked, but at least sane. I gave them a 3 pieces of notebook paper with hand drawn sketches, they asked a few questions, we double checked a few details, and they gave me a permit.

LLC aka Ron

Oh, did I mention that I also need to submit an "Impervious Coverage" estimate, since my town considers decks to not be impervious?

Did you ask where in the code it requires 24"x36" sheets?

Don't wnat to these people off.

They are second in line behind Police Officers in the "grin and bear it" category…

If your neighbors like you then just build it yourself and tear it down if you ever want to sell…

Zoning Board members are usually appointed by an elected town council. Perhaps a word with your alderman?

It is not a little power trip.

Nope, sorry, it is.
All of the detail was there, but said ass-clown couldn't be bothered to flip through a couple of pages.

I live in a town, where they *assume* that everyone uses a contractor and can't (won't) do their own work…

Zoning Board members are usually appointed by an elected town council.

Most of them *are* the town council…

That seems like it should be something that your home insurance company should be concerned about not your local government.

But then there was that deck collapse a few years back in Chicago. A deck on an upper floor collapsed and took out the deck, or decks, below it. How many people were injured in that episode? In fact, I think Law and Order did a show with that as a premise, it got so much coverage at the time.

Well…I can't speak for your location. Our planning/building dept handles applications of that and ensures that construction occurs as regulated under the zoning ordinance, which btw, is passed by the public and their elected city council as well as reviewed by the lawyers. Some of it has to do with keeping a minimum spacing between structures, which a deck is technically, to adhere to uniform fire code requirements and making sure you're not building it just to peep into your neighbors bedroom windows for free peep shows. :P

There is also the structural aspect of it since it falls within the uniform building code regulations as well…for earthquake/ wind load. And no…us public slaves don't all assume that home owners always use a contractor. But we do have to make sure that what is being done is per code or we might be personally sued as well as the municipality we work for if such a failure is due to perceived negligence. And from my perspective, it seems that the builders and owners want to blame everyone but themselves for their own stupidity/cutting corners & costs after it goes south on them.

And as I said with the 8.5 x 11 paper…it may be fine for letters and small details but it is not sufficiently sized for plan drawings since we have to add notes, conditions, date stamps, recording file numbers, signature approval blocks, code references, and such…WITHOUT overwriting the actual drawing and notes so much that they become unreadable. And for the record…I've worked both consulting, contractor, and municipal desks for almost 3 decades in the civil engineering/structural arena, so I'm not talking from just a single perspective here. ;)

@Go0gle:

C'mon really…
It's a ing DECK!

Any Civil engineer that PASSSED structures SHOULD be able to read drawings whether it is on 8.5x11 or 20x30, or the back of a freaking napkin…

The POINT here is that the town engineer REFUSES to thumb through pages ofinformation that aren't on LARGE paper.

ALL OF THE ING INFORMATION IS THERE, HE JUST ING REFUSES TO READ IT!!!!!!

So, get off of your high-ing horse, "we're protecting you" and try to be objective about the process…

Seriously, How freaking tough is 4' on center, 3' deep for footings does it need to be that even warrants more paper than then the three lines this took to type?
Really?

Ironically, my brother-in-law lives a couple of towns over, in the same county, and the building inspector took his plans and neatly cut them into 8.5 x 11 pieces to fit into the folder…

With most home improvement jobs, I just don't understand it, and I'm an attorney. Fences, roofing, interior demo, basement remodel, patios, garage doors, garbage removal, septic installation/removal, wells, etc. If it doesn't affect town services, I don't think the town should be involved. That is the basic common law of property ownership. Everything else is socialist interference. Tortious malfeasance protects and incentivizes proper procedures. With many current zoning requirements, the incentive is to lie and cover things up. Proof of that is the number of people who forego permits and deal with the consequences as they're usually cheaper. If you think municipalities follow their own code, you'd be largely wrong. One need only look to the condition of our bridges and tunnels (and schools for that matter). As with many commercial uses, reasonable inspections should be required (if only to protect oneself from future liability), but permits?

Another thing that gets my goat are rules about fence height.

You just need to watch a couple episodes of Holmes on Homes to see what contractors do when they don't get permits. I would think that is the main purpose of permits, to protect the consumer from unscrupulous contractors. It seems contractors are trying to give lawyers a run for their money as most hated profession.

High horse? Hmmm…really all I was doing was trying to provide possible reasons. Now high horse would be more along the lines of "humanity as a whole is too stupid to allow to exist any longer". One only has to look at our history to figure that one out. :P

Here's one for the attorney…under the 5th amendment, consititutional LAW, there is a little clause in there that prohibits ANYONE…city, private citizen, or corporation, from developing their property in any such manner that creates an ADVERSE impact on the adjoining properties. (THIS from several constitutional lawyers)

As to all the other inspections the feds and counties are not doing…well…funding issues are the problem there initially. You can't get enough people to look at things…and the ones you can afford are either fresh outta college (and know nothing that experience only can teach) or are "less than enthused" about doing the work to begin with.

If you all want less laws and regulations…then quit suing each other, the cities, counties, states, federal folks…and we'll be happy to ignore things. 90% of ALL regulatory issues are borne out of citizen group, private citizens feeling wronged, folks who are more 'not in my backyard' oriented, lobbyists for unions, environmental groups, insurance companies (big one there)…and such things suing the perceived jurisdictional body who they don't want to have any influence over THEM is making sure their neighbors aren't doing something that will be a personal inconvenience or whatever. Belive me…I've heard enough whining from the public that I don't consider myself an engieering inspector but a freaking kindergarten hall monitor for a pack of spoiled rotten idiots. (there's another bit of high horse for ya)

I do not agree with any regulation that takes away rights from property owners without just compensation. The takings clause in the 5th Amendment protects this right. That means if I could previously build a deck on my property at whatever size I want and the town enacts legislation that says I can't and I need a permit for it, that the town must compensate the property owner of the loss of that right. This is analogous to eminent domain law and I am firm supporter of that Constitutional right.

If that property owner builds a deck and if affects others rights, such as abridging property lines, affecting light/air, etc. then the neighboring owner might have a cause of action against the owner. The town has nothing to do with it by Constitutional or common law. Local (and socialist bent) regulation aside, the government's sole function in that dispute is moderating it in court.

If an unscrupulous contractor is doing shoddy work not up to code, and conceals that from the owner, then that contractor is liable to the owner, and it has nothing to do with the town. Further, that owner has the opportunity to have that work inspected in order to avoid any liability with regard to the shoddy work. Again, that has nothing to do with the town. Further, the contractor might be criminally liable for fraud.

Reasonable inspections might be necessary in certain circumstances, such as public facilities. Under the Constitution, Congress is allowed to enact such laws as necessary to provide for the health of the nation (i.e. police, fire departments, military, etc.).

Further, municipalities invite liability among themselves by requiring permits and inspections. By enacting these regulations, municipalities accept responsibility and liability for mismanagement and shoddy work. Such responsibility should be placed on private citizens. Private citizens should inspect the work to ensure that the work is proper and that they can avoid liability.

More laws and regulations bring on more lawsuits. My giving people more causes of action, you get more lawsuits. Less regulation, less lawsuits.

We require the inspections and permits because we're required to ensure that the work is done properly because somewhere along the line the courts and state via federal governments got sued or the voters/industry lobbyists got together and passed a law to said effect.
Permits allow tracking of that work, fees reimburse the city for the costs involved in tracking the work…believe me when I say that you have to be a flaming masochist to WANT to work in a municipal environment. This little discussion is repeated about a dozen times a typical day averaged out over a year. We're doing the job that we're required to do…because that's what our laws tell us we have to do…and we're sandwiched in between you folks the property owners and the political/legal folks. There is no win win…it's merely limiting collateral damage.

I guess it depends on where you live. I am in the process of building a deck and other than the $213 USD for the permit I have had no problems with our Regional Building Department in Colorado Springs. Took the 8.5 x 11 drawings from Lowes and the clerk even added to them in red ink where they did not meet code, then they copied them for their files. The inspector has been really nice and even told me how to fix mistakes when I did some dumb things due to my ignorance.

Good Luck.
STT

Go0gle:

You're doing a FINE job of defending the process, which I WANT to uphold, but please do a better job of defending the paper size?
Really?
You can't fit comments on a smaller piece of paper?

I can only write so small dude. *L*

I'm with pphalen all the way on this one.

The idea is that you'll quit and hire a contractor. This is government 'working'… Just be happy its not the sewer backing up or something like that.

Can I point out that the US is a democracy, and that ALL of the LOCAL regulations are therefore subject to the vote?

Therefore any regulations that you disapprove of are ones put in place as a result of a majority vote.

Which makes the whole thing political and I thought we didn't do politics on TMP any more…..

But those regulations must still abide by federal and state constitutions. People (more than) often vote against their better interest. It's a weak argument to say vote against the change if you don't like it. It's a better and more difficult argument to say why such change is right or wrong.

Regulations and taxes against property more often than not create more problems and increase costs for everyone. There's a reason why we require fences around swimming pools. It's smart because pools are an attractive nuisance to children. There's no reason why we should require anything from decks. It's the owner's property. Let him do with it what he will.

Definitely increase costs for everyone. The Growth Managment Act is a good example of this. Prior to passing in '98 (voted in by the good folks of Washington State) you could create a 4 lot subdivision for about 5k in engineering and survey costs…and about 15-25k in construction/excavation work. Once the GMA was passed, the engineering costs alone shot up to over 50k…which affects the housing and property market values since that 1 acre lot you could buy for 35k is now going at 75k. With builders involved…this shoots a 50k home to 120k…and it only gets worse from there.

Can I point out that the US is a democracy, and that ALL of the LOCAL regulations are therefore subject to the vote?

Since when? Last I checked we were a Republic. Not a democracy. There is a difference.

I live in Britian. Americans often state that because we are a monachy we are not free. Americans often state that because we can't carry guns we are not free. Americans sometimes state that because we have the NHS we are not free.

I can build a deck anytime I like. I can put down a new drive if I want. A low wall in the garden if I wish. As long as I don't affect anyone else, or materially alter a listed building (which is a history protection thing) I can do what I like to my house. Explain this land of the free thing again.

Three words: Personal Injury Lawyers.

As go0gle has said, most of our laws have been a knee-jerk reaction to someone getting their underwear in a knot about something.

As far as the property rights thing that nycjadie is referring to, ask the people of Oregon how well that constitutional amendment they passed has worked for them. best answer, the state is out billions of dollars, and their environmental quality has gone to h3ll.

Ever wonder how many people are dead in developing countries because the US banned DDT? last estimate was 20 million, the same number that died in the Holocaust. Rachel Carson, bless her concerned soul, got up in arms and convinced the people that DDT was the Debbil's own work. This lead to the complete banning of DDT, when DDT *in the proper application levels* is completely harmless to humans and birds. It just does a number on malarial mosquitoes.