"From 'Anschluß' to 'Zyklon B' - dictionary of Nazi terms" Topic

Words to watch out for. Their use can betray you!

link

"Selektion" is verboten?

Crikey, I suppose a compound word along the lines of "I have decided upon the (male/female/neuter)(noun) that I wish to choose" has taken it's place?

:0)

Let's not speak about it and maybe it'll go away.

*Puts fingers in ears "bla-bla-bla-bla-can't hear you!"

So this is a book by the language […] as a warning to people so that they won't be mistaken for a […].

I notice that 'Wehrmacht" is also proscribed. I asume that "Luftwaffe" is still OK or has the German air force undergone a name change?

;0)

Give up 'Lager?' Not on your nelly.

Then again, I always thought 'bière blonde' had a rather nice ring to it.

Wehrmacht – like the other words – is OK in a historical context. But referring to the Bundeswehr as Wehrmacht is strictly not on. But Luftwaffe never changed, of course.

You would also, for example, never refer to a task force as an Einsatzgruppe unless you wanted to defame it.

My pet hate in _English_ is when working with other people is referred to as "collaborating".

The Nazi use of language is fascinating, but unfortunately you need a near-native command of the German to appreciate its full subtlety and perniciousness.

Grinning Norm, you miss the point. You can speak as much as you like in Germany about the Nazi period using Nazi words, but woe betide if you use Nazi words to describe post-war and present Germany and Germans.

Oh, so you cant describe their present day neo-nazis as nazis then?

Inselaffe, allright, I guess you're right. At an abstract level it is more or less then same as insisting to call every apple a pear, which will make you look uninformed, stupid, silly or having issues with apples.

Still I frown a little upon 'banning' of words by attaching a strong second layer to the meaning and refusing to accept the original semantics at face value. And maybe I connect this too much to the swastikaphobia both in appropriate and inappropriate context.

I, for one, think it's beyond time that we finally got over the Nazis. More than 60 years after their defeat they still have a grip on our minds, and publications like the one in the article make the problem worse rather than improve it. I suggest a final solution to the Nazi problem; that we take this vocabulary back and use it in any natural context until we can see the Nazis for what they really are, previous century bad guys rather than bogeymen.

@Ge.Montcalm: "you cant describe their present day neo-nazis as nazis then?"

An interesting question! If you do, they might well sue you, as they call themselves National Democrats these days and officially deny they're Nazis. The other groups "Republicans" and "Deutsche Volksunion" similarly portray themselves as simple patriots who just want to set the historical record straight and claim "Nazi Germany wasn't _all_ bad".

@Grinning Norm: nobody is deliberately attaching a second layer to the meaning: those meanings and associations are just there and we have to deal with it. Words can be weapons, so we handle them with care…

@Spectacle: it's not "more than 60 years ago" but "only 60 years ago". There are plenty of folk around who remember it all too well. Give it another generation (or two!).

My pet hate in _English_ is when working with other people is referred to as "collaborating".

That's beacause that's what the word means. All those Dutch and French women got their heads shaved in '45 for collaborating with the enemy. If they'd been collaborating with the resistance, that would have been different. :)

Thanks Inselaffe for posting the link! The German post-nazi trauma is indeed a very interesting cultural phenomena.

I tend to find European restriction of speech disgusting. But, they're their countries, they can do what they want. I don't hold it against them.
-Kle.

@Andrew Paul, that's my point: I know what the word means, but "collaborator" was – and for me still is – loaded with a specific extra and negative meaning, just like a Nazi word in German. Back then a collaborator always automatically meant working with the enemy.

@Klebert L Hall: did you actually read the article? And it's not only Europeans who "restrict" speech. There are plenty of taboo words in the USA too…

"I suggest a final solution to the Nazi problem"

LOL, I see irony is not dead.

"I tend to find European restriction of speech disgusting"

But preferable to have another bunch of goose stepping nazis plunging us into barbarism. I suppose if you have not had them dropping bombs all over your cities or herding your citizens into gas chambers it gives you a different perspective. I only have to look out the window to see the benefits of Nazi Kultur.

But perhaps the taint of at least some Nazi terms may fade with time. Take the word "Mädel," for example, a dialect word for "girl" which was favored by the Nazis. Its Third Reich connotations appear to be lost on young Germans today, many of whom use the word -- often ironically -- without a second thought. "Young people don't know it was used by the Nazis," says Stötzel.

That may be the answer.

I have always thought that restricting what we say or even how we say it may give more power to the offending terms than just letting them be said.

While I can't call out the Germans for being sensitive to such issues (if I'm living with the ramifications of WWII, they're not in my front yard) I do think that such activity eventually may do more harm than good.

Maybe you all are interested in another German opinion. I am neither a supporter of neo-nazism nor of restriction of speech. But some words do only have a very distinct meaning and should be avoided in other circumstances. Endlösung or entartet may be a premier example. These terms do only technically have a different meaning than the nazi-era definition.
By the way, I had not heard of the book until a few minutes ago. It seems like they do not only cover "taboo"-words but other terms as well. Maybe I can check the book in the local library.

@Klebert L Hall: did you actually read the article? And it's not only Europeans who "restrict" speech. There are plenty of taboo words in the USA too…

Not to the point of making it illegal to say certain things. This is not what was discussed in the article, but such laws exist in at least two European nations.

I think the 'PC' idea of taboo words here in the US is a load of crap, too. I subscribe to the 'sticks and stones' philospohy.

But preferable to have another bunch of goose stepping nazis plunging us into barbarism. I suppose if you have not had them dropping bombs all over your cities or herding your citizens into gas chambers it gives you a different perspective. I only have to look out the window to see the benefits of Nazi Kultur.

My father fought in WW2, and two of my uncles were refugees from the Nazis. The Nazis were a bunch of bad folks, indeed.

However, restriction of speech is just as barbarous as the other things the Nazis did. It was right up their alley.
-Kle.

I think the 'PC' idea of taboo words here in the US is a load of crap, too. I subscribe to the 'sticks and stones' philospohy.

I bet you would still think twice though before calling someone a 'n.igger' or so? As a kid I was taught that it was a rather neutral word, but now I'd probably not use it out of fear of getting looks and wrong interpretations.

There's a difference between not saying something to someone, to avoid giving offense, and thinking that people should be prevented from saying that word.

Freedom of speech is all about protecting offensive speech, sonce nobody tries to limit inoffensive speech.
-Kle.

"There's a difference between not saying something to someone, to avoid giving offense, and thinking that people should be prevented from saying that word."

We're getting things confused here: there is nothing or nobody legally stopping you from using Nazi _vocabulary_ in Germany; only good manners should stop you, unless you're specifically discussing the Nazi period in historical terms. However, expressing Nazi _ideas_ or denying the holocaust (with or without Nazi words) can get you prosecuted.

I'm not sure whether you can be prosecuted in the USA for, say, telling elderly Jews that the Nazis weren't such bad guys and that it's a pity Hitler didn't gas the lot of them, or calling black people "co.ons" or "nig.gers". There are moral if not legal limits to free speech.

This dictionary informs the readers of offensive vocabulary that is best avoided, it's not about free speech at all.

As far as I get understand the article that started the whole discussion, the "taboo"-phrases were just used as a lead to introduce the book. The mentioned book seems to try to deal with the use and change of meaning of words from the nazi-era (can one understand this sentence?)
They are not implying that the words are forbidden (by law) only inappropriate in some circumstances.

However, expressing Nazi _ideas_ or denying the holocaust (with or without Nazi words) can get you prosecuted.

Precisely. The discouragement of the use of certain words for the sake of political correctness is a symptom of the restriction of speech through legislation. Neither is acceptable.

Someone choosing on their own to not say something out of politeness is fine. Someone else trying to enforce it through peer pressure isn't.
-Kle.

I think you're still getting it mixed up. There is no legal restriction whatsoever on using any Nazi term. But you can be prosecuted in Germany and in other countries for denying the Holocaust, or for advocating the physical extermination of Jews, even if you use perfectly acceptable and PC terms.

Incidentally, Nazi words are by definition German, so unless you speak that language there's nothing to worry about anyway!

A certain restriction of free speech is a fact of life, and perfectly acceptable in my view. Insulting and upsetting Jews, blacks, Christians, women or anybody else is not OK just because it's free speech!

And my old English teacher (he was a Brit) told us when we were spelling: " Don't say SS, say double S!"

Ulenspiegel

re Selektion: It is ok to use "Selektion" when discussing evolution in German. I haven't found any other field before WW2 where Selektion was used. The German word Auswahl/Wahl is usually used.

Ulenspiegel

According to my 1909 Cassell's (If it's not in there it is NOT German, as far as I am concerned. Rather some polutant, such as "Gekidnapped" What E is that? Any way, getting off subject.), the only useage of "Selektion" was as a binary with "Theorie". Other than that it was not used.

There was a grade of school known as "Selekta", but….

In the Grimms dictionary from 1820, it does not appear at all.

Therefore I would say it was a safe bet to assume that the usage COULD be said to be purely nazi inspired. In fact I would not put it past Mengele to have seen it as a pune, or play on words, that may have amused him greatly. Seeing himself as being the "natural selector".

Klebert- it comes down to "Free speech, but you can't shout 'Fire' in a crowded theatre". These words are offensive to some Germans. They are MOST connected with a period of almost unimaginable brutality.

There seems to be a view amoung some Americans that because there is no '1st amendment' that Europeans can't speak their minds. I can guarentee you that this is not true. In fact, some points of view are much easier to express- We have openly athiest MPs, sitting alongside openly Muslim, Chatholic and Protestant.