"Dragonblood: New Releases & Plans for Game Rules" Topic

I love all the excuses for the poor behavior of "John the OFM" and all the other negative individuals whose total commitment to the hobby is manufacturing drama on the boards. Nice work on furthering the hobby gents, excellent job!

Too bad DB put any amount of stock in their opinion. DB makes nice figures, their stuff will be missed.

Can we start a poll on whether we should lock this thread? The choices should be:

1) Now
2) Yesterday
3) Fly around the sun so fast that the thread never happened.

Cheers,

Christopher

No doubt there's a lot of negative comments that come from some of the main people around here. But those same people provide a lot of positive comments too. They are doing exactly what this board and many others like it are there for – posting comments. John's comments were not out of line.

Naaah, I prefer to compare myself to Hizzoner duh Mayor, the Honorable Richard Daley: "They have vilified me, they have crucified me; yes, they have even criticized me."

Just saw this in somebody's sig. Thought it was timely:

"Opinion is the blanket one sticks their head under so they may sleep."

Toy soldiers. We are talking about toy soldiers.

I like toy soldiers as much as anyone. In fact, I make a large part of what passes for an income out of toy soldiers.

But folks, it's not Darfur. It's not child labour. It's little model figures that we may or may not like, or buy.

I gotta say that the vitriol has probably gone a little too much toward the OFM. While I feel that it is okay to tell him that he is being rude in a given post, I don't think that it in any way is fair to express the idea that OFM caused the guy to close his doors. As has been eloquently expressed by Darksword, this was, at most a straw. Let's not overdo it against the OFM!

Dblood had some awesome stuff, and I hope to grab some of it! It is not too late for this all to be unwritten and you just open your doors again.

I know how tough it is to run a business and this sort of feedback doesn't help; but neither should it be the final straw. The final straw for me, when I started my own firm, was three months of losses. We never hit that point, so we stayed open!

Good luck Eric in whatever you decide.

Since this argument seems to be drawing to a close, I guess I'll wrap up things for my part with a review of what I've been saying. Some of it may have been lost or tangled up among the more direct jabs made at the OFM by posters that are not me. I guess John just had the bad fortune of being the one that caught jumping on the bed when it finally broke. All the other kids were doing it too, but John's the one who got punished. Although of course, he is one of the most prolific posters on TMP, so the chances of it being him were perhaps not so low.

The notion that "blame" should fall on the owner of Dragonblood Miniatures is, to me, absurd. "Blame" suggests he's broken a social contract and others have suffered for it. He offered us a privilege at his own expense, then decided to stop because clearly the soft-value rewards (gratitude, the feeling of being a useful contributor, etc) were not good enough for the hard-value expenses (whether that be loss of money, or not enough profit to justify the man-hours). He owes us nothing, so we can't blame him. Some posters in this thread seem to want him to grow a thicker skin, not for his own sake, but for theirs, so they can continue having his products available to them.

I don't see why it would compromise freedom of speech, to be pragmatic and show courtesy to someone who gives us a luxury that's not owed to us, when otherwise we might not get that luxury. We want the luxury, don't we?

The Amazon is a good sculpt. It's a woman, designed in the style of fantasy artwork like that of Frank Frazetta, Boris Vallejo, Michael Whelan etc, standing contraposto. By the same standard of quality that Allen is critiquing it with, a whole essay of negative observations could be written about almost any 25-30mm miniature in existence. Click on the advertisement for whatever miniatures company comes up at the top of your TMP screen, and see for yourself.

The "major complainers" on TMP are able to voice their complaints and have those complaints be listened to, only because the rest of us don't do the same. If we did, TMP would be all complaints, fights and people feeling insulted at having things they like being derided by others.

As for the things I have said about the OFM or that could be interpreted as being about him. Recent pooh-poohing offensive against fantastical-looking miniatures. One of a few very vocal complainers lately. Making a snarky derisive comment. I think those are, ultimately, true things, and my comments about them were balanced under the circumstances. I never said his free speech was "irresponsible". I said people are responsible for the things they say. I doubt any freedom fighter chose to die for "freedom of speech without responsibility". Well, possibly the anarchists…

Finally, I'm sorry but my real name stays private. I prefer to have as little as possible show up when people I have dealings with in Real Life get curious and try to Google me, and automated data mining is only going to get more effective in the future (and the mined data will get more ruthlessly exploited). Harmless-seeming personal facts posted today can be regrettable five years from now when it's still online. Remember back when looking up people's names in search engines had not yet become a phenomenon, and most of us didn't see it coming? I'm a fairly old member of this forum, and I'll continue to be here, with this account. That'll have to do for proof that I'm not hiding behind anonymity or making a hit-and-run attack.

Oh, and I still fervently hope this is not the end of Dragonblood Miniatures.

"By the same standard of quality that Allen is critiquing it with, a whole essay of negative observations could be written about almost any 25-30mm miniature in existence. Click on the advertisement for whatever miniatures company comes up at the top of your TMP screen, and see for yourself."

Hmm. OK: it's a bunch of Elmore Masterworks ladies from Dark Sword sculpted by Jeff Grace (some images at link NSFW):

link

It's your challenge. You go first!

Allen (who is disappointed, as he was really hoping for Thunderbolt Mountain or Tom's George R.R. Martin Masterworks for Dark Sword; but you takes your chances!)

Oh, and in case you think I rigged it, this is what was at the top of the page:

TMP link

I'll admit, Dark Sword is quite irreproachable. Right up there with Dragonblood.

Damn.
Here is what I came up with:
oldgloryminiatures.com
I am calling out the 25mm NKE Archers!
Darn stumpy legs.

BTW, Allen. I have issues with Baak. His nostrils are too far apart.

I own several Dragonblood miniatures and will miss the line. I can totally understand how he would give it up and simply say it is not worth it as well. Most people who just "play" wargaming don't understand the effort and work that is put into any contribution to this hobby whether it is a podcast, a vidcast, game rules, a website, painting and most of all sculpting. NONE of it and I mean NONE of it is done for a profit motive because even when you make a profit there is no REAL profit there. People do it because they love the hobby and want to contribute to its life, success and vitality.

I could understand John's criticism if it had been sought. If you put up a picture of miniature and ask for reviews then you can expect criticism. But if you post an announcement about a new product that doesn't necessarily mean we are compelled to give our critique of it. I see A LOT of things posted on TMP in the form of announcements that I am often tempted to criticize or complaint about. But then I realize that my taste may not be the same as others and there is no need to discourage or insult someone contributing to this hobby simply because what they made doesn't appeal to me. And often I am glad I didn't as they either put out something I do like later or I look at the product again and find it isn't as bad as my first impression would of made it out to be. Unfortunately John won't have the opportunity to do that with Dragonblood and in the end we all are the worst off for it.

I expect it was as someone else said, "the final straw that broke the camels back"
I think a lot of sculptor/miniatures company owners feel like chucking in the towel at least once a week. Most keep going out of a mix of the love of actually making something themselves and bloody mindedness at not wanting to be beaten down by a few detractors. There's certainly no point in doing it for the money or public acclaim and there is no one on earth that can manage to produce a miniature that won't draw criticism from somebody.

As a side note, I have noticed that there seems to be a kind of pile on effect where the first three or four posts in the thread dictate the way a thread will go. For example if a bad figure starts off with four positive posts in a row it seems to put off negative posters and visa versa.

I never did like the faces Dennis Mize put on his figures. And the poses often suffered from being a little lame.

Hmm general consensus would seem to be
1, John .. your a bit of a blunt and to the point
2, DBlood .. you are either hyper sensitive or you have a lot of other issues going on in your life.
3, Everyone likes my idea of a John the OFM miniature sculpted by DB including wide hips and interchangeable weapons for fantasy or historical gaming 8)

This is my first post on TMP for a while.

I like Dragonblood Minis, although I must admit I had not gotten around to buying any.

Also as a professional model maker and sometime figure sculptor, who has also closed down his own figure range, I would like to add my 2 cents.

The OFM's comments were not that strong, they were off-hand and easily forgotten.
Clearly DBlood had his reasons for getting out of the business, and I don't really think this comment was that much to do with it! As an artist he must have encountered bad criticism before, and probably much worse than this!

I think Dragonblood Miniatures have not handled their close down very well, but I am sure they have their reasons. I hope someone takes up the range and employs the sculptor to add more figures.

Time for OFM and Dragomblood and everyone else affected on TMP for a big group hug. OFM tell Dragonblood your sarcastic remark aimed at the toys ass was not a comment on whether or not he was a virgin but that some more research on porn sites should be in order. Dragonblood if you're reading this, and we all know you are, pick up your rattle and admit to everyone that this was all a marketing gimmick to make everyone feel sorry for you and buy your figures.

Now there's nothing more to see here move on to another thread. Have a nice day.

For what it's worth, I just keep getting ads to miniatures companies whose products I really don't want to bash for the sake of it. I'll yield the whole "just pick any company and start bashing" thing (which aside from being stupid, was hardly in the spirit of wrapping up things) and be content with saying the Amazon warrior is as good a sculpt as any I can easily find.

I also came out of a fairly long silence to post in this thread. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go apologize to some people for dropping out.

OFM tell Dragonblood your sarcastic remark aimed at the toys ass was not a comment on whether or not he was a virgin but that some more research on porn sites should be in order.

OK, Ahem.
My sarcastic remark aimed at the toys ass (hips, actually) was not a comment on whether or not you are a virgin but that some more research on porn sites should be in order.

Hmm. OK: it's a bunch of Elmore Masterworks ladies from Dark Sword sculpted by Jeff Grace (some images at link NSFW):

I'd have to say the artist and sculptor appear to have done the required research on porn sites which was mentioned above.

I will fall to the words of the bard;

As a rule, men worry more about what they can't see than about what they can.

*************

I have been giving this some thought. Where as the main difference between my opinion and another is simply that it is mine, it reminds me that our mistakes and our comments are all that we can truly call our own.

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott

'You are old, Father William,' the young man said,
And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
Do you think, at your age, it is right?
Lewis Carroll

I do believe that this lengthy thread is evidence of a social exercise. And to that end I am mulling the value of picking your fights.

It is interesting, looking in from the outside if one was able, to note the attitudes and in some degree the platitudes.

When I was training as a manager/supervisor I had to continually remind myself that it is easy to remember the small things that my subordinates did on a daily basis but less so to remember what was done right. I had a struggle with grading my workers fairly for this reason. It is natural to find fault in what we see.

Rather than attack or even comment on what has been said in particular I will only comment on the end result;

This thread has proven that I like to be disappointed by my peers.

Meaning that after a quick review of what is being said I know where the comments are headed and I keep reading.

Why?

Well rather than figure out why, I will instead simply ignore those members who consistently provide a reason to bypass their comments.

I am far from perfect or even moderately important, so this self filter will not change the world…but it will keep me happier.

While working through a life changing event, behind padded walls, I was told a simple rule for what insanity is:

doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result each and every time

The classic example being the guy sticking his hand into the fire…it burns him, yet he knows that if he does it again, this time it will not burn…so he sticks his hand into the fire…

I am done sticking my hand into TMP fires…it always ends up the same way.

Just remember that the internet never forgets what you say.

PS
I also hope the new owners of Dragonblood Miniatures will offer an opportunity for the sculptor to continue the great top shelf lizardmen and trogs, as well as other great subjects.

It is sad to see a real talent reach the breaking point. Sad but realistic. Soft profits can really etch away at the desire to push a vanity project over time.

I wish the folks at Dragonblood the best in the future and appreciate their efforts for our collective hobby.

"Caesar, whether you saw my post about you or not, I apologize, you deserve better than that."

Thanks for the apology, but even though I didn't see what you wrote I'm sure it wasn't all that bad. We all get snappy, especially me.
I doubt that many of us write comments here with the earnest goal of personally attacking each other. I bet even OFM is a pleasant fellow!

What is wrong with the concept of growing thicker skin?

I believe it's a good trait to have, and keeps things people say from bursting your bubble; the reality is people say and do things that are not always nice.

Darn it, I have about a dozen DB figures so far, and want more (the crap exchange rate between the £ and $ delayed me). I will be disappointed if these figures fade away (like so many before), as there are many excellent miniatures in the range.
I wish Dragonblood all the best for the future.
Good luck,
Kevin

I bet even OFM is a pleasant fellow!

Sounds like a Poll topic to me.
No, wait. Better not!

All I can say after reading this entire thread is I am glad Reaper Miniatures has only ever produced perfect, scale, well proportioned models~

Very funny Ed! Does that count all the really old Heritage molds that you ran back when I had hair???? Oh, wait, the winkle (~) indicates sarcasm. Close relative of "Rhetorical" so I almost missed it.

Binky says "OiNk"

lol, Ed. Classic.

Well, it's taken me a few days to get through this thread. I've got a few thoughts (only a few, wish I had more, more often…)

First of all: it's the internet! People are rude on the internet sometimes! This isn't shocking or surprising or unexpected. It's not pleasant when someone is rude or snarky or snippy or sarcastic, especially when they're commenting on your art, but it shouldn't be surprising. Also, we should all be aware that without tone of voice or body language, simple text does not always convey the full meaning or intent of a person's words. "As many fools have been ruined by their ears as have been ruined by their mouths."

Second: This idea that people shouldn't criticise figures that they'd never buy is just silly. I don't have to want to buy a Napoleonic figure to have an opinion on whether or not it's a "cool" figure. "Cool" is the ultimate subjective trait, and opinions on "cool" are as varied as there are people on the planet. Other factors, such as crispness of detail or accuracy of anatomy, can be less subjective, but that's not always the point. Charles Schultz's "Peanuts" characters all have giant heads and malformed hands, but no-one ever complains about how they're anatomically inaccurate – it's just the "style" of the artist. Copplestone, Olley, Verner Klocke – they all have their individual styles, I like all of them, and none of their sculpts would look quite right at full human scale.

But that's fine with me, I like how they look! I also like Vaugn Bode and Ralph Bakshi's artwork, and their anatomy is wonky, too. I know that not everyone shares my taste, and some people think that the art and sculpting that I like is total crap. *shrug* Whatever. I like it, that's enough for me.

Also, I've been critical of figures that I *would* buy, "if only…" there was some small change in it.

You all know that I'm a huge fan of Wargods of Aegyptus, the sculpting and the game – but I don't like every single figure in the line. I like most of them, but of course I like some better than others, and there are some that I don't care for at all. No big deal. It's insane to expect everyone to like everything all the time, or to be a fan of a sculpt just because it comes from a sculptor or a company that I generally like. I like a figure on its own merit, or at least I try to.

Third: Man… I had more to say, but I'm already getting tired… Anyways, thirdly, it's a damn shame to see to see Dragonblood shut down. There were some GREAT sculpts there. I admit I haven't bought any of them, although I intended to get the axebeak eventually (for whatever intentions are worth).

Ugh. Like I said, I was all worked up and had more to say, including my perspective, being a (very!) small manufacturer myself, but I'm already tired of this, tired of writing. Just a sad situation. I hope Dragonblood is able to continue doing something creative with the industry.

-Alex in Alaska
-Forge of Ice

As a customer of some really high-end sculptors in the business I can tell you that even they make "mistakes". And I agree with the others Dblood – don't let it bother you.

I'd like to send you some of our miniature sculpting videos if you would like. Some of these guys used to be head sculptors at Rackham in it's heyday. You'll see that all the artists constantly encourage you to push your own techniques and not let fear or accuracy get in the way of creativity.

Who knows, maybe we can work together on something.

Miniature Mentor

My lizardman and dragonman armies will miss their re-enforcements. I know first hand about small businesses run from home in spare time (not gaming related) and the time and effort it takes to do so for a very marginal return.

It is said is marketing classes that one happy customer will tell from one to three others, while an unhappy one will tell at least twenty five. Without regard to all of what has gone on before in this thread, I suspect there are a lot more folks who bought/repeat bought Eric's figures and liked them than bought and did not.

Having said that, if it just isn't worth it anymore on multiple levels, I also fully understand his pulling the plug – regardless of whether he did it in the "best" way possible or not. I fully expect that Eric will honor existing orders or provide full refunds, as I've always found him to be an honest gent and to me, a good seller.

JJ

It is extremely hard to post 20 times a day for 7 1/2 years and not be an utter bore. Even if you have something to say, no one wants to listen to it every waking hour. Which is why I use the S-button…