"Dragonblood: New Releases & Plans for Game Rules" Topic

I now understand how a dictator like Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez can claim that they have "Free Speech". It really means "You can say whatever you want, so long as you agree with me."

So now, my "irresponsible" free speech has driven some company out of business. Give me a break.

Theres a difference between "Free Speech" and being a rude B**tard mate. As Dblood himself remarked "is this what the hobby has turned into, a chance to crap on things" – and for the most part, yes it has.

I really REALLY can't believe people can't see the difference between being "snarky" (as one guy called it) and levelling criticism.

The whole "grow a thicker skin" is pathetic, why should he have to – why can't people on the internet have better manners – go manners cost nothing.

But rather than offer up something constructive, they tear a guy down.

As it being an over reaction – thats an assumption at best. Does anyone on here know whats going on with him – his health, family or whatever.

What might seem mild to you (its always a mistake to judge other peoples feelings on your own standards) might be devastating to him.

OFM what you said was unfair at best, and childish to boot.

"Its'" your "free speach" that is unacceptable, John.

Darned right I wouldn't buy it, Keir. The stance isn't the only thing that's off. Look at the lack of definition on the backs of the legs. The back of the torso is smooth: on a female this thin, you should see the scapulae, and some muscle definition. The right arm doesn't seem to have a joint; it's a classic spaghetti arm. The right hand isn't defined; it's puffy across the back, and the thumb looks misplaced. The facial features are odd; the mouth is abnormally wide.

Over on Frothers, Dragonblood has rarely received anything but hyperbolic froth, and their wrath and scorn directed at John is laughably hypocritical, considering the hatchet jobs they've done on better figures than this. I haven't said a thing about DB over there, because you're right: I just don't need a squid guy with a crab latched onto his shield. Ever. Sorry, it's just not on my list.

But this is apparently a human. So it ought to be sculpted like a human. If it were up to the standard (which is not a particularly high standard) of GW's Mordheim Amazons, I might consider getting one to see if it worked with them. But it's not. It's wonky. So I'll pass, thanks.

Fantasy enthusiasts seem to confuse scads of detail and over-the-top accessories with good sculpting. Certainly it takes a good sculptor to do scads of detail and over-the-top accessories well. But this figure is let down by the anatomical flaws. That's not mocking. That's an observation. If you don't see the anatomical problems, that's your blindness.

Allen

Oh c'mon – the GW Amozons were weak – they were "training sculpts" anyway. That got released for some strange reason – what am I talking about – they wanted to make money, duh – silly me!

"But rather than offer up something constructive, they tear a guy down."

You mistake the difference between criticizing a product, and criticizing the sculptor or the vendor.

Allen

it. Storm. Teacup.

Eric @ DragonBlood: Pick yourself up, swallow your pride and get back on the horse.

@Allen – you need to pay attention to whats been written –

"Do some sculptors even know what a woman's body looks like????"

Thats a personal attack on the sculptor, not a critique of the miniature.

If he had written –

"That miniature looks nothing like a real woman"

THAT would have been levelled at the product, not the man.

@Hasslefriesian

" it. Storm. Teacup."

Thats a assumption, just because you perceive it that way – that DOESN'T mean its that way to Dblood.

OFM… You're a bit of a . Flapping gob and stirring the pot is John's thang. A resident expert on all.
DB… Get over it, one comment does not an opinion make. If you set your self up as a sculptor and can't take criticism you're in the wrong game.

All opinions count for .

You like what you like irrelevant of the quality.

Best wishes to all.

Sure, John. All the people who have been suggesting that you are a bit too involved with your TMP persona and need to get some perspective and exercise some common restraint are "like Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez", of course casting you in the role of the oppressed freedom fighter. I hope you look good in that beret!

I rest my case.

And Allen, relying on comparisons to Frothers for standards of online behavior is in the same league.

All anybody is saying is that the Wolf Pack should take a step back and consider whether all the vitriol really serves any purpose other than fueling an acidic ing match.

Christopher

@Hasslefriesian

"Bleeped text it. Storm. Teacup."

Thats a assumption, just because you perceive it that way – that DOESN'T mean its that way to Dblood.

You made an assumption too. I was talking about everybody else's (yours included) reactions to John's comment, not Eric's.

There's got to be more behind his decision to quit than one ill-informed snipe on an internet forum. Whatever it is, I hope he gets past it.

My beret was knocked off:
picture

Do some painters even know what a man's body looks like????

Sebastian, patron saint of soldiers … and plagues and barbs!

I kind of agree with Hasslefree. While I don't particularly appreciate OFM beating me over the head with his "free speech" everytime I open a thread that shows some female fantasy miniature, there's no reason to single him out as the reason for DB closing shop.

Sometimes people just get fed up with the business side of the hobby, and it ruins their enjoyment of the creative side as well.

Dave Trampier comes to mind.

Sometimes people just get fed up with the business side of the hobby, and it ruins their enjoyment of the creative side as well.

If this is the case, I think dblood could have handled it better.

My only criticism of this whole event is the apparent reason why dblood shut down the business. If there were other circumstances, wait a couple weeks, give people who want the minis a chance to get them, then do a news item on TMP that you're shutting down and why. While he has no reason to give us any reason why he's shutting down, it goes a way towards good will, and presents him in a better light, especially if he decides to restart at a later time. As it is now it seems like he's shutting down because of spite, and all there is is speculation; from my perspective we can't know any different.

Damon.

Sculpting is about interpretation. It's art, whether it's a miniature or not. If you want something picture perfect, don't buy a miniature. None of them are completely accurate. Yes, it's a fantasy figure, and so some license is taken. Deal with it. OFM, you contribute nothing (and I mean nothing) when you make comments such as you did. You did not criticize because criticism (good criticism) generally involves something constructive. You bashed, plain and simple. Your beliefs about miniatures are you own, and frankly I'm tired of hearing you. Get a life. I owe nothing to Dblood, and do not own any of his miniatures, but I understand human courtesy and decency. You do not. Rather sad for someone as old as you. I find you foolish and churlish. Get off the computer, go paint some minis in small, quiet room away from other people.

Forest

I'm back off to Frothers. You guys play too rough for me.

"Our hobby was made richer by the existence of this company, and then we messed it up."

We messed up nothing. This is DBlood's mess and nobody else is to blame. Most of the people running here to throw stones at OFM and lament the passing of DBlood probably never bought a single model from this guy or even heard of his company. He threw a fit and decided to spite us all by closing business. If you worked with someone like that you'd hate the guy. But don't let that get in the way of your indignation.

Things on TMP often work in a weird manner.

Sometimes people go to the DH for "personal attacks", while the troll (and some might rank me with that, particularly on this hread) who started it gets off scot free.
I don't want this to be the case here.
I don't want ANYONE to get the DH for comments made against me here that some may perceive as "personal attacks". None. No one.

I said what I said and I am standing by what I said. I should be able to take it too, and I do not want anyone sent to the slammer for calling me on it. (You should see what I STARTED to type in the past day and deleted. )

Sebastian, patron saint of soldiers … and plagues and barbs!

Good one, Christopher.

@pavelft – ur my Hero (and I am NOT being sarcastic LoL)

@Hasslefriesian – You said "There's got to be more behind his decision to quit than one ill-informed snipe on an internet forum. Whatever it is, I hope he gets past it" – EXACTLY hence the "assumption" remark (please keep putting sweets in my orders LoL)

@pavelft – it seems its OK for other people to make snarky remarks, but not you . . . . . .

Duke, I took mine back. I know when I cross the line and rectify it. I snapped at Caesar and should not have, it was a reaction I am not proud of. Caesar, whether you saw my post about you or not, I apologize, you deserve better than that.

"The whole "grow a thicker skin" is pathetic, why should he have to – why can't people on the internet have better manners – go manners cost nothing."

What's the cost of growing a thicker skin these days?

If you are an entity providing goods/services to the pubic and are unwilling to hear negative things, even completely unwarranted negative things, you're in the wrong business.

>>> @Allen – you need to pay attention to whats been written –
"Do some sculptors even know what a woman's body looks like????"
Thats a personal attack on the sculptor, not a critique of the miniature.

Ummmm… no. I guess they don't teach these things in school any more. The OFM's post is what is called a *rhetorical* question. It is not meant to be taken literally, as to actually question whether the sculptor has seen a human form.

Allen

How 'bout them new Red Box Games figs! WOW! Where can I buy those?!

right over at their website!

sorry, this thread is becoming it's own web site and figured it might be wrothwhile to post a news blurb here.

If you are an entity providing goods/services to the pubic and are unwilling to hear negative things, even completely unwarranted negative things, you're in the wrong business.

I agree completely.

Here's the thing: we can all wish for everyone to be polite, respectful, and adhere to a certain standard of decorum. But this is the real world, and while I feel the vast majority of people act in the way we would want and expect, there is ALWAYS going to be those that refuse to do so, for whatever reason. For the most part, the comments on the figures specifically have been very positive, with a mere handful of negative comments. If a mere handful of negative comments can drive you out of business, compared to all the positive ones, I have to wonder…

Damon.

Allen, you forget to take into account nuance. OFM's post is a sledgehammer of nuance.

It never ceases to amaze me how easily people hide behind their screen names on the internet, whether they are right or wrong over any particular dispute.

It seems that such assumed anonymity encourages the very worst behavior in some people, as if somehow they were entitled to be extra abrasive or even abusive in commenting on *anything,* from healthcare to politics to an artist's latest effort.

What saddens me here is that the overall tone of those who would claim to criticize here on TMP is often simple juvenile rudeness, rather than an actual critique, and that a highly talented artist whom I actually taught how to paint figures a very long time ago has been driven to this point in part or entirely by this steady barrage of unnecessary behavior by those who IMHO are frankly old enough to know better.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

P.S. Frothers? LOL!!! Jesus, Joseph, Mary, and the mule they rode in on! Now there's a reminder daily of the reason I turned down that job working with juvenile offenders over twenty years ago… Yeesh!

Here's an open, rhetorical question: do we want to see miniatures companies (particularly the cottage industry companies) succeed? Would we like to see more miniatures lines fulfilling our every misbegotten desires? If you want such, yes you can criticize, as long as it's constructive. It takes balls to put your name on the line and create something for others. Especially when the fiscal return is so little in this hobby. If you want this industry to thrive, then moderate your comments with some dignity, and let the owners know, politely, what you'd like to see change. If you intend to bash then expect people to close up shop. Yes, it's a service industry, and yes criticism is expected. However, there is a difference between slapping down your server, and giving them your honest opinion in a manner so that they can improve. Bashing accomplishes nothing except providing oneself with a small ego boost, and deliberately causing pain to others. It also keeps those who might want to start a business in this industry from putting forth the effort, knowing that first steps (or even twelfth steps) will be ground down. GW can afford to slough off bashing because they have the position to dictate the industry. Someone like Dragonblood does not have that backing. If you're going to criticize his work, at least give suggestions for improvement. If you're not interested in his work in the first place, then be quiet, your words are not needed. All this talk of "get a thicker skin" takes a very short-sighted point of view. Yes, the owner can get a thicker skin and not give a care what the consumer says, but that takes away the two-way communication of the producer-consumer relationship. If you want a long run approach, one where the producer feels safe soliciting the consumer's opinion and advice, in order to advance the business, then follow what I say.

Forest Pavel

Leland, I feel no need to hide either.

I think Pavel's post is right on spot.

I'm sorry Dragonblood has gone out of business. But when you go into business you need to be aware of two things:

1.) You have entered a cut-throat competition that makes the Super Bowl, the World Cup, and the World Series look like a game of Candyland. You had better be on your game, watching the competition, and doing your damnedest to make sure your product stands out as superior to others in quality or price or preferably both, or you are doomed. That's true whether you're selling miniatures or toothpaste— you have to offer something that's better than the next guy, or you're gone. Period. And if you don't, you'd better do everything and more to improve your product until you do. If you're not willing to admit the former and do the latter, save yourself the money and the heartache and stay out of the business.

2.) Some people aren't going to like your product. Period. Some people are going to say so, in public, loudly and rudely. Period. DEAL WITH IT. Does that excuse the -takers? No. But don't expect casual critics to offer constructive criticism— you won't get it. But even the casual critic often has a valid point. That point may be nothing more than personal taste; e.g. the critic simply doesn't like fantasy (or whatever). It's a valid point from his personal perspective, but that sort of point you can ignore. But if the critic does tend to voice support for some competitor's product in your market, then it's worthwhile to take that second look at your own product and see if you can determine why. Yes, the critic may just be wrong. If so, ignore them. But if they're correct, even if their method of expression is pathetic or rude, then glean the information you can from the criticism and improve your product. Because for every person who does twit a product there are a number of people who agree in silence.

Keep in mind that every miniature on the market is competing for discretionary funds from hobbyists. You'll get some impulse buys, but what you're really trying to do is convince someone to spend their discretionary funds on your product over someone else's. In the realm of fantasy, you're not out there by yourself. You're competing against GW, Reaper, Foundry, Hasslefree, Splintered Light, and on and on. That's stiff competition for the fantasy miniature market. You'd better top 'em or under-price 'em or have something so unique that no one else offers it. It's easy to look at an individual mini and praise or criticize it. But a product line doesn't exist in a vacuum. It has to be compared to the competition. And the competition is tough. Personally, I suspect that this latter fact has way more to do with Dragonblood's apparent demise than any comment made by John or anyone else. The question isn't whether people might buy Dragonblood's product— the question is whether people will buy these minis rather than another miniature from someone else. I suspect that question had already been answered, and we're seeing a tantrum directed at a convenient target rather than a business facing facts.

Oh, and I'm not hiding. Never have. If you want to call me "Howard Shirley" instead of "Parzival," that's fine. I just happen to like the latter as a screenname, and have used it since 1990. I answer to either, and I stand behind what I say by either name. If I'm right, well, good. If I'm wrong, I'll take my lumps. If I agree I'm wrong, I'll admit it, too. On a forum such as this, "Internet Anonymity" is a myth. We all know when someone is hiding behind an assumed personality or altered screen name. We also know the regulars who aren't. So while the "hiding on the Internet" argument is a convenient rhetorical trope, and may indeed be applicable to a "post and run" comment on FoxNews, CNN, etc., I don't think it really applies here. This is a community, and we do know each other, even if only online.

Eric decided to hang it up for a number of reasons (as we have been talking all weekend via email). I think the post from OFM was the final straw is all that made him go public with it (so OFM, your post did not make Eric simply come to some divine moment of clarity where he decided he wanted to hang it up). Running a small miniatures company for the love of the hobby (as there is not a ton of money in small boutique lines that try to keep their prices somewhat low) takes alot of time and energy. And if you are not pulling out decent money, then it is a big question of where do you want to spend your free time after work (as we only have so much of that each day). Most folks put up with their jobs simply because the companies pay them well enough to be there. So the BS comes with the turf as you are getting paid to put up with it. If you did not get paid pretty well, would you put up with the BS at work?

Running a miniatures company is a rollercoaster of many highs and some big lows. Plus most of the smaller miniature company owners and sculptors are huge fans of miniatures so they jump on forums and such to interact with potential customers and fellow miniature enthusiasts. Due to the extreme opinionated nature of this hobby, the online forums can drain someone really quick. Feeding the occasional malcontent (or negative poster) by responding to their comments and jumping in the mud with them can give the false impression (to the negative poster) of a company empowering them like their opinion really matters in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that matters is if the person will buy your miniature/s or not. People vote with their wallets. If something about your miniature made them not want to buy it (where they otherwise would have), then I can see taking a listen. But there are a number of people who are so busy posting online all day to the extent that I do not see how they could have the time or money to purchase miniatures and actually enjoy the hobby. It is almost like the cruising online and bashing things is the actually hobby, not the collecting of miniatures for some folks. Can you imagine if George Lucas responded to all of the online bashing from bitter Star Wars Fans for Episodes I – III ?!?! He would be online 24/7 defending his work (while checking his ungodle huge bank balances online). Then this would simply empower the negative fans to rage on even more as they think have George's ear.

The only opinions I care about are those of my customers that actually put their money where their mouth is. You will never be able to please everyone. This is why our hobby is so niche-based. This is a good thing as there are enough choices out there for everyone. Do I go cruising the GW or PPP forums bashing their miniatures because they are not my preffered type of miniature? Heck no – I do not have time for that. I try to spend my time on things I like and things that make me feel good and make me a better person. There is enough bile/hate in the world as it is, why do I need it to creep into my hobby and my personal life? If I see something I do not care for, I simply move along to something I do like. It works better that way.

Warm Regards,

Jim
DarkSwordMiniatures.com

Well said, DarkSword.

All in all I'd like to say I think it's too bad he decided to stop the whole thing, I was very much looking forward to seeing the minis line supported by a SBH-based rule book.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify the situation Jim, though I wish Eric would have done so directly.

Damon.

John the OFM wrote

"Give me a break."

Why John? You didn't give Dragonblood a break did you? What makes you so special that you think you deserve anything other than total derision?

Your life consists of little but posting here, declaring your self-appointed genius and masterful knowledge of everything, on everything, to everybody.

Time and time and time again, on any and every subject, regardless of true interest, invovlement, knowledge or skill.

So why, exactly, should anybody give you a break?

And this isnt about "freedom of speech": it's about one person being a nasty, vindicitve little beotch, quite deliberately, and then trying to hide behind a facade of "criticism" and "free speech".

utter drivel and conduct of the very lowest order.

Give you a break? No: you don't deserve one.

A couple of points.

DB closing down his webstore without giving anyone a chance to finish orders or make a last order is just disrespectful of the people who have bought his figures in the past, and were continuing to do so. Especially carried out in a fit of childish pique as this thread has portrayed. And I speak as a buyer and fan of DB's work.

My first thoughts on seeing the female figure in question were "thats just some weird anatomy going on there" and would have posted that – now whether OFM chooses to express his views on the figure, in his own way, is also his right. As long as he doesnt break TMP rules when doing so. Which he hasnt.

Now compared to some of DB's other sculpts – such as the awsome Plesiosaur or the brilliant Trogs for example, that female figure is sub-par in my opinion. If DB cant bear to listen to anyone saying that then clearly he is in the wrong line of work, and that goes for any artistic endevour where a buying public is involved.

And, if only George Lucas had felt the same as DB, it might have stopped him producing the last two Starwars films. Where were you when we actually needed you OFM?

Hey … hate to say I was right but about message 22 I said, John was right and DB must have other things on his plate to over react like he did … best to leave it now.

So how this has turned now into an attack on John is beyond me … let's get real chaps, it was not even anywhere near as miserable or cutting comment as normally gets slung around on TMP about sculpts or rules …

MMmmmmm it was/is a weird sculpt, maybe not the best way to say it but John's comment was in line with most negative comments used on TMP threads and was probably deserved … thousands of those people we choose to try and model on the tabletop; who lost their lives to defend free speech must be rolling !

Rich J

Well said 001!

OFM must have the ability to stop time, as he clearly spends so much time painting and playing every wargame genre.
And then has time to give us all his expert opinion.
It appears from the number of posts that OFM has turned into one of those "virtual" gamers, how very 21st century!

FFF

It seems obvious to me at this point that the wanks have really come out of the woodwork, not in defense of a substandard sculpt or it's owner's childish tantrum… but to toss their poo at the OFM.
I've been on this site for a good long while now and I don't understand the vitriol that the OFM pulls. I don't think it has much to do with anything except his being a ubiquitous target.
If this comment had been made by most anyone else the reaction would most likely be quite different… at least in degree.

I'd rather have a gameroom full of crusty but basically fair-minded curmudgeons like the OFM than these panty-waisted tea-cozies and "I'm taking my ball and going home" drama queens who are trying to make this into something it's not.

Count me in with the ones who can't see how this has become an OFM witch hunt. His comments were hardly enough to even approach "The Line" much less cross it.

I hope Dragonblood finds something more rewarding to do with his time. While he obviously was talented, if it wasn't worth the hassle to him, then he's better off doing something else.

Keep the faith Dragonblood.

Its only one opinion in a sea of many.

Good Luck!

I hope he reconsiders and reopens. I love his work and was really looking forward to the new book.

I believe it would have been a great companion to the minis. Fingers crossed it still goes ahead.

Cheers,
Ben.

This whole thread is pretty damn funny.

So much for the wargaming "community", eh? Over the past couple of weeks, I've watched some of the threads here with mounting disbelief.

Richard Ansell struggles to get work because his sculpts are "too realistic". Apparently we want realism, but not so much that it makes our existing bobblehead figures look bad. And we want our figures to fit in with our existing 25, 28, 30, 32, and 35mm minis, both to the eye and to the top of the head/headgear, or we just won't buy them.

We want a one-man company working evenings and weekends to make these miraculous creations available for less than £1.00 GBP per mini, and delivered to our doorsteps in the same timescale as Amazon and other big companies with a logistics and stock control budget in the millions can manage.

We expect this and more from sculptors who would make more money flipping burgers in McDonalds, and from small companies that have to be run as a second career because theere's no way in hell that their owners could survive on just wargaming. And when they get burned out and leave the hobby, we shake our heads and tell them they need a thicker skin, or that they just need to get back on the horse.

It's absolutely right that John should be able to express his opinion, and absolutely right that we should all be able to learn from criticism. But maybe we should remember, before we tear into them, that the guys we rip chunks out of on the internet are doing this because it's what they love, because they want the joy of creating and contributing something. Without the time and effort they put in, often with little thanks, the hobby woule be a whole lot poorer.

How did John "rip a chunk" out of anyone, pray tell?

I'm not saying it wasn't a bit snarky, or sarcastic, but truly, his comment was mild. It was in fact rhetorically the same as saying "How long, O Lord?"

He saw a figure with sub-par anatomy, which follows an industry habit of sub-par anatomy in female figures— which has been a frequent topic here, commented on by far more than John (and in far more disparaging ways than John).

I might point out that this very week, John commented in praise of another fantasy female figure which did have good anatomy. He has praised other endeavors here as well throughout his tenure. But does he get any praise for that? No, we have to rip John apart because one person who was clearly having other troubles completely unrelated to John decided to make John's comment the focus of blame. It's as if the owner of the Detroit Lions announced that the team's struggles were the fault of some lone fan who questioned the passing game and the entire stadium turns on that fan. Please.

John didn't comment on the figure's cost. He didn't comment on the figure's suitability for this game or that game or this army or that army. He didn't make any demand that the figure be changed to suit his desires, or the line be expanded, or be lowered in price or anything else. He merely questioned the figure's anatomy. And he did so for one figure from a company with a line of other figures in production. If anyone here believes for two seconds that John's comment was indeed "the final straw" that caused that company to close its doors perfunctorily, can I interest you in some swampland?

The blame for the company closing in the manner it did and as unprofessionally as it did falls solely on the owner, not anyone else. Any other argument is nothing but bovine waste.

I'm all for civility, but come on. Sometimes people just need to grow up and stop taking offense over any little thing that comes along. The "you're mean, so I'm taking my ball and going home" defense is childish and pathetic, especially when someone really hasn't been mean. Grow thicker skin, indeed.

Sure, John. All the people who have been suggesting that you are a bit too involved with your TMP persona and need to get some perspective and exercise some common restraint are "like Ahmadinejad or Hugo Chavez", of course casting you in the role of the oppressed freedom fighter.

Again, a standard ploy a few posts down the road. On another typical whiney bitch thread of his he compared himself to Churchill and Lincoln.

Just like a bad players tell in poker you've seen it so many times you can almost script it.

Better get some ventilation in that room or switch to acryclics…