"Dragonblood: New Releases & Plans for Game Rules" Topic

Norscaman beat me to it with his post and I agree entirely. I think addressing some issues with what you actually think is wrong with the figure, whether it is scale, dimenions or anatomy – or the fact that very few 'fantasy' female figs wear armour that offers any protection is fine. To open with a fairly disparaging remark as to whether or not the sculptor has ever seen a female is a bit harsh. But to be fair if you do put your wares on display I think you have to accept that they are going to draw comments – good and bad!

'Do some sculptors even know what a woman looks like?' doesn't sound like constructive criticism to me.

'Looking at the sculpt, there seems to be an issue with the anatomy here, here and here' may have been a better approach.

The thing with the internet is that once you have thrown a comment out there, it is going to be interpreted differently by lots of people. The lack of face-to-face chat, cuts down on the amount of sentiment that can be taken from a comment…that means that you have to think about what you are saying carefully otherwise it can be mis-interpreted. I've fallen foul of this before and have had apologies to make.

I guess D-Blood has had a bad run of comments and has just had enough. Whether it was TMP or any number of other factors I guess it is D-blood that has the final say but I really hope that he sees through the mist and calms down long enough to make the best decision for him…whether that is to cave in to the nay-sayers or fight for what I consider a very interesting and insightful range of miniatures.

Artists are artistic and have to temper their imagination with passion and risk taking…otherwise it is just production for production's sake. I hope this is just an artistic hissy-fit and nothing worse and that way D-blood can get back to making miniatures.

It is always very easy to scream and swear at people when you are in a car…you wouldn't necessarily do the same thing in person. The internet is just like that and sometimes people need to take a step back before being overcritical…there is such a thing as testing the waters before you dive in, after all.

Venusboy said "That's a load of crap… always has been. You're basically saying that we've got no right to an opinion because we aren't the sculptures… which is bunk."

For the record venusboy3, Norscaman is no sculptor and no teacher! So I post! I am good painter, but that is it.

And, my only complaint was the derisive tone of the OFM's post.

I "do" law; just like the OFM. My hobby is gaming and painting. I am amazed that anyone goes into miniature scultping and I am impressed with his miniatures.

As to your insightful analysis of my attempt to give Dblood kudos for following the road less traveled, I don't know anyone claiming to only have the right to an opinion if he is a "sculpture" (can sculptures have opinions?) But the true thrust of my comment is that Dblood miniatures are better than many produced, especially by GW, and he should be proud of his product. His Lizardmen are out of this world. His Aztek or Mayan chicks are amazing. I like it all!

Their headline on TMP lasted longer than the company.

That takes some work!

"Wearing a turkey on your head probably doesn't help it, either."

That was a fowl comment.

A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner (English Proverb)

I looked it up, and Dragonblood is an advertiser here on TMP.

Should the OFM replace Bill's lost revenue?

This is all dumber than a box of rocks. Really folks, the OFM is a harmless guy who speaks his mind, and also happens to like miniatures in general. If his opinion makes you feel like he is just "crapping on your work", you're taking it the wrong way.

Binky says "OINK"

Should the OFM replace Bill's lost revenue?

Ha Ha – now that's a funny concept.

This is all dumber than a box of rocks.

Well said. There is definitely something wrong with the figure – pose, camera angle, whatever – I don't know.

And this thread is for a News Topic about the company going forward. How bizarre is that?!

"OFM is a harmless guy"

Is he harmless when TMP starts losing more advertisers?

Should the OFM replace Bill's lost revenue?

No, but he should be claiming this as his first 'kill'

This is NOT the OFM's fault! Eric made the choice to pull the plug, NOT the OFM.

" A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner "

Wise words to live by.

I actually like the chick figure but not the fighter but that is me.

When I first looked at the pic, my immediate thought was also that the hips looked strange…. BUT, then I looked much more carefully, and realised I had completely misinterpreted something very important: at first glance, the shadows on the sculpt had suggested that she was just wearing some kind of "metal G-string", and that the piece of hanging fabric with the tassels on was at the BACK of the figure – that error in perception made it look as though the hips were spaced way too far apart. It's not – it is hanging at her FRONT, and is thus obscuring her inner thighs (can I say "inner thighs" here and get away with it?). Allowing for the fact that she has her weight shifted on to one leg and her right hip stuck slightly out, suddenly the sculpt looks perfectly fine – at the worst, she is a well-built lass with "childbearing hips, like a Baltic woman"; I wouldn't push her out of bed on a cold night, anyway…..

While we are entitled to post our opinions, that's pretty much it. We're not entitled to having miniatures produced for us. That's something we get by the good graces of the people who make the miniatures (I'm being serious). The subtext in some of the flak towards DBlood seems to be "Calm down, or I'm not going to get what I want".

My point is, you don't where you eat. If all of us exercised the right to complain as much as the ones who complain the most on this site, TMP would just be one big urinal and the hobby would suffer for it. In real, quantitative terms.

Anyway, I don't see what's so bad about the anatomy of the Amazon. It's a good figure (and if that's "only just beginning" as someone put it, then I'm not even primordial soup!). The other day I got some miniatures from a company which shall remain unnamed, but suffice it to say it's one of the most popular and beloved companies in the hobby. Several of the figures are way more deformed than that Amazon. One male figure, for instance, seems to just have one big, heavily pronounced pectoral muscle that covers his whole chest. Incidentally, it was a historical figure. I'm sure I'd get chewed up and spit out if I started making snarky derisive comments about it here on TMP.

I have been gently reminded that there is a precedent for silly bird hats:

YouTube link

Allen

1.) The figure. The detail and intricacy are impressive. As a ceremonial guard, she works fine. Not so much as an actual warrior— once again, silly garb for a real fight. But that's a matter of taste, and if the setting supports the garb, fine. The pose is static, but that fits a ceremonial guard. I agree that the anatomy looks a bit off, even accounting for a bent stance— those are really wide hips! But again, it's not that bad either, and it could just be the photo. Overall, not my sort of thing, but certainly an above average work.

2.) The OFM's comment: Snarky? Yes. But really fairly mild, all things considered. And much less egregious than comments by others here on other threads (Read any threads about GW? How about that Napoleonics board?). And his comment is actually based on a legitimate criticism.

3.) The "business" reaction: Holy cheese, that is way over-the-top. I seriously doubt it really has anything to do with the OFM at all. I suspect some external issues are in play. The OFM's remark is certainly no reason for anyone to close a business, etc., etc.. Heck, if it were, GW would have burned itself to the ground years ago. Frankly, if a business owner can't handle something this mild, he needs to find someone else to run the business. To me it smells like a sympathy ploy, and a rather immature one at that. I taught my son to stop behaving that way when he was five.

4.) Criticism: I'm a writer. My work gets criticized by clients, editors, fellow writers, and so forth on a regular basis. And I listen to that criticism. (In the clients' cases, I'd better, if I want to get paid!) I expect editors to comment on my work and to suggest ways it can be better. They're very often right. I am also part of a critique group of fellow writers that meets regularly. We read each others' work, and say what works for us and what doesn't. I don't always agree with my colleagues' comments, but I always listen to them. They are telling me what I communicated to them— if it matches what I intended, good. If it doesn't, then I need to make changes. Either way, the onus of communication is on me. But frankly, if the response I get is entirely positive, I'm often less than happy, because that gives me no basis for improvement. Any form of art is no different; the artist needs to see the flaws, and the best way to see the flaws is through the eyes of another. Is it pleasant to hear? No! We all want people to love our work. But only by hearing what is flawed can we improve and do better.

5.) TMP is hardly a grouch fest. (Been to Frothers, anyone?) It's one of the more quiet and polite spots on the web. And the urge to "dump" isn't a geek thing— just look at a sports site. Sports fans are supposed to be "mainstream"— if they're the standard for polite social discourse, then we wargaming types are practically saints.

6.) There is no comment 6.

My $0.02, which is worth exactly that. I have no illusions otherwise.

DBLOOD, Hang in there! Don't leave the hobby over smack. I produce miniatures mostly sculpted by non-professionals and cringe every time I get ready to post an image to TMP. I always get a good beating from TMP readers and nearly ten years later here I am still producing what I like to produce regardless of the comments. You see most TMP readers don't bother to comment at all. My sales don't drop because of negative statements against my products. Any publicity good or bad results in sales. You've got 1,600 plus hits on this posting. Celebrate my good man for grabbing the attention of the crowd!

Johnny
MegaMinis.com

"I have been gently reminded that there is a precedent for silly bird hats"

Yup, a couple of continents full of them over history.

The "business" reaction: Holy cheese, that is way over-the-top.

Great googly moogly, can't say I disagree…

Damon.

In response to Parzival's 3rd point of order: The reason I disagree with this, is that it assumes small miniatures companies like Dragonblood are profit-minded businesses like GW. I think they're more like means for the owners to create stuff they like and share it with fellow hobbyists. The miniatures equivalent of a painter opening his own gallery or a writer self-publishing. I'm not saying profit (or, rather, income) is completely out of the picture. At the very least you'll want to hedge your losses. But at the end of the day, starting up your own miniatures company is hardly the best of investments. The reward lies rather in the feeling of accomplishment and of contributing to something you like. The moment you lose that feeling, no one can justly blame you for bailing out. And when you've sacrificed a lot of money and effort into bringing such an operation into existence… hell, you're allowed to use sympathy ploys. Nor have you any obligation to be thick-skinned. We, the customer base, have no obligation to coddle the person running the business either. But from a pragmatic point of view, we can either be civil and maintain a win-win situation, or be ruthless and risk losing a good thing that we were only getting through someone else's sacrifice and enthusiasm.

In response to "TMP is hardly a grouch fest": If it isn't, it's because some of us are holding our tongues. What would it be like if we didn't?

I'm not saying I'm blameless. I've complained about miniatures I didn't like, but only a few times, and in retrospect I'm a little ashamed of my behaviour some of those times.

Still hoping Dragonblood Miniatures gets back up and running, and people stop holding this debaucle against it, as if Dragonblood somehow owes them anything. I'll agree there's probably external factors we don't know about. But maybe that's just something we should always keep in mind, before we start criticizing luxuries that can very easily be taken away from us.

I think thinker skin was needed, what did he expect? drooling fanboy raving like a Lasalle thread? ;)

Maybe he was looking for a measure of courtesy.

I don't think that the freedom to say what you want means that you should throw common courtesy out the window.

But that's just me.

This sucks I really wanted both of those figures, and a few more from the site. Thanks random old internet grump for not being able to voice your opinion by just not buying any.

Words have power, with just one comment you appear to have been the straw that broke the camels back. Your comment didn't just upset artist, but other people as well who now will be unable to actually get the miniature advertised.

While its not entirely your fault, it is your comment that will be remembered as triggering the shut down of a company that produced just fine minis. So once again thanks.

Raising issues of individual rights to free speech are somewhat misleading in this context, and the reason that this event has caused such an inordinate amount of commentary is due to the fact that it is an issue of *community* communication.. What has happened on TMP, as in most other internet forums, is that a small group of extremely active members post on an outsized amount of comments – in essence, they have become the dominant voice of TMP. They very often strike first, strike hard, and stay in the fight the longest. They have developed online personas over time, and some, obviously including John, obviously enjoy playing with those personas to such an extent that it sometimes seems that TMP is their hobby, rather than part of their miniatures hobby.

This is neither unusual nor necessarily bad – dominant posters form the backbone of most forums and often contribute a real personality to otherwise sterile places. In my opinion (and I know the more virulently individualistic amongst us may disagree), these posters also need to remember that they are part of a community, and show the respect and courtesy that any group of congenial hobbyists should – in other words, they need to exercise common sense and restraint on occasion.

Put another way: if you in the pool, don't be surprised if the other party guests get upset.

Cheers,

Christopher

OFM makes a cutting remark from the saftey of his online "bad boy" persona, YAWN…. how very predictable and tedious.

FFF

Inari7 said: "I looked it up, and Dragonblood is an advertiser here on TMP.

Should the OFM replace Bill's lost revenue?"

Definitely. Free speech should never get in the way of making money.

Asking if a certain sculptor has ever even seen a female body is free speach only if you're an idiot. Especially if you look at his other female sculpts.

Asking if a certain sculptor has ever even seen a female body is free speach only if you're an idiot. Especially if you look at his other female sculpts.

Absolutely. Free speech shouldn't include saying things that are idiotic, or that stop someone making money, or that hurt anyone's feelings.

Free speech includes everything.

I don't see anything wrong with what John wrote. As with everything anyone posts on the internet, the text was based on the poster's opinion.

Opinions and s: Everyone has them.

Bleep = Ares-wholes

Well, I would've loved to see what the fig looks like from a different pov so i can chime in on this, but is seems that pretty much at the time of the news being posted here, Dragonblood for some reason seized regular operations.

Anybody know what's up with that?

It never ceases to amaze me how people see their rights beyond reproach. There is such thing as practicing your rights with dignity, grace and in an intelligent and civilized manner.
Every action has it's reaction and saying there is nothing wrong with something just because it's not forbidden is a testament to leghts our society still has to go, before the laws will stop being actual ethical minimum.

When I saw the figure in question, the hip immediately caught my eye. I continued my assessment and concluded that I could fix said hip, would replace the weapon with a two handed macuahuitl or obsidian edged spear point, and replace the shield with a more traditionally Aztec one. These changes to satisfy myself simply put this figure farther down the que than many other Dragonblood figures I have been desiring.

As it stands, I have only one Dragonblood mini. I have not been able to afford to buy more. This is nobody's fault but my own, along with my particular set of circumstances. That I won't have the opportunity to in the future is no one's fault either. Had I the funds, I would have long ago fattened Dragonblood's coffers. The inability of myself, and others, to purchase from Dragonblood doubtless had something to do with the owner's decision to throw in the towel.

The OFM's comment may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. I suspect that there was a decision to continue in business, or not, being mulled over and, perhaps, postponed for some time now. I feel the comments likely allowed the owner to place things in a clearer perspective. He should do what will make him happy and be in the best interest of those that depend on him.

I have long had a phobia about minis and games becoming unavailible before I can get them. This situation is simply another such instance. It is the nature of the beast. If, for whatever reason, we fail to purchase the items of our desire, we are hardly encouraging the merchant to continue to produce them. So get'em while you can folks.

Ken

To make this about free speech is missing the point. Of course you have the right to free speech. It doesn't mean anyone has to sit and take it. It doesn't mean you can't be held responsible for the negative consequences of what you say.

Crud. I was planning on picking up some of Dblood's figs at a later date.

My intuition tells me the decision to close or sell DB miniatures goes well beyond one person's comment on TMP.

I also think the sculptor's reaction is a bit embarrasing, from a business perspective.

Hopefully this thread has been a valuable learning experience for all! Thick skin, honesty and courtesy are good traits in any well rounded human being :)

I think he should re-open the business and make a mini of OFM 8)

Imagine if GW or BF folded up their businesses based on what's been said about them? No? So it makes about as much sense here.

Warhound- LMFAO!!!!!!! That is awesome and I would buy it to use in my zombie apocalypse gaming.

OFM said,
"Do some sculptors even know what a woman's body looks like????"

Hasslefresian said,
"Free speech includes everything.
I don't see anything wrong with what John wrote. As with everything anyone posts on the internet, the text was based on the poster's opinion.
Opinions and Ares-wholes: Everyone has them."

(this is not directed AT Hasslefresian, I'm too big of a fan, but at the general concept that "free speach" gives people the right to say what they want with impunity.)
Its true that freedom of speach would include allowing this kind of attack but it does have its' limits. There are types of "speach" that are not allowed and for reasons. Shouting "fire" in a theatre or threatening to kill someone can get you in trouble and rightfully so.

Ever been to a restaurant and seen a sub-human abuse the help, cause nothing but trouble, and try to get free food?
That is a serious abuse of a social relationship. The staff of the restaurant are not in the position to fire back in kind and the sub-human knows it.
Yea, its' freedom of speach. Its' also 100% out of line.

Dblood is in a similar position. He is restricted by a professional ethic. He can't rant and rave and return abuse for abuse without tarnishing the professional image of himself and his company.
(I am not defending his reaction BTW. That tarnished his professional image in a different way. I would have taken a different tack.)

I am of the opinion that if someone hits you, you hit back twice as hard. They crossed the line, they earned it.
A restrictive (moderated) forum may not prevent such initial attacks from getting through but rarely is an appropriately vicious retaliation allowed.

Dblood's hand are tied and people like the OFM enjoy victimizing the helpless, otherwise they'd keep their petty, vicious, childish, reactionary, myopic, "misery loves company," neurotic, sadistic, gives-a-ginchy-thrill-in-the-crotch opinions to themselves.

Vote with your wallet, as they say.
I will vote with mine. If OFM orders from me he will get a refund.

I would pose for it too.

Again. The OFM's comments did NOT shut down DB.

Before long people will stop commenting at all on figs for fear of shutting down a company!

Ken said it well but I think it needs reiterating. I keep reading that so many of you are bummed because you won't have teh chance to pick up those minis you have been wanting…… Well that is just your own fault.

I know from personal experience how difficult it is to make your way in this buisness, esppecially on you rown steam ( i.e. NOT imitating or copying ). The out of pocket investment is HUGE and teh returns MINIMAL at best.

I totally understand that you have to prioritize your spedning for the pieces that appeal to you the most. I am not faulting anyone that. BUT do not be surprised or upset if those niche figures you have been wanting are suddenly no longer availible because the company has shut for lack of ability to operate profitably.

In short, if you want to support a company BUY SOMETHING FROM IT!

In the movie History of the World Part I the have the Caveman painting on the wall and the narrarator says "the first artist was born", then we see someone peeing on it and the narrarator says "and first art critic was born"

it's historical.

IIRC from an earlier news item, the sculptor is not the owner of Dragonblood.

What is interesting is the sudden about face from moving forward (per the News Item this thread stems from) to closing up shop. At first I assumed that the site had been hacked!

John's comment was fine … If people think his comment was wrong then I'd expect them to refute it not moan that he had it. If db had come on and reasoned and not spat the dummy this would have finished about 60 posts ago.

I just painted a figure from Dragonblood last week.

Caesar: GW and BF are not garage businesses. They have shareholders, employees and all kinds of business responsibilities, and are most definitely run in a profit-minded way. It's like comparing a major book publisher to a self-publishing writer.

I repeat, Dragonblood Miniatures owes us absolutely nothing. Our hobby was made richer by the existence of this company, and then we messed it up. Simple as that.

It's a shame when we lose a great company like Dragonblood. It's happened before in just the last couple of years with Olley's Armies, Rackham, and Ilyad. The owners of Heresy and Calpe have expressed at times their justifiable frustrations with what appears to be an unrewarding business. I imagine such frustrations can be stoked to a white heat by the comments of cheapskate customers and armchair critics. The hobby is much the poorer for it. I wish people would put a sock in it. It's also galling when the criticism comes from people who really have no apparent interest in the miniatures. It's hard to believe that either John or Allen would ever buy a Dragonblood Miniature but here they are, mocking away.