"Dragonblood: New Releases & Plans for Game Rules" Topic

Do some sculptors even know what a woman's body looks like????

she has a shield coveing half her body, plus a big headdress, and .. who the cares. Why do I even bother with this site. Seriously, is this what the hobby has turned into, a chance to crap on things.

When it gets silly I tke a break. Why get worked up over a game/hobby?

Hmm?

Edit: LOL, I just noticed her pelvic girdle/hip joint – I'd love to see the autopsy report after her death if she was alive…

Gracias,

Glenn

Dblood, I see you are relatively new to the site.

Apparently you are just now getting famailiar with his signature move which our group calls "The Bitch". There are many variations but its usually just the same old post with just a few words changed around. Hang around or go look at old posts of his and you'll see what I am talking about.

It is a common strategy we've all seen on other boards used by people who are concerned about their post count and pretend not be. Or they usually have some inflated value of their importance to a forum. Or both.

I'm not saying that is the case here of course but you do the math.

I'm not new to this site unfortunately. It's been about 6 years now.

glenn, when a hobby business earns little, there needs to be some sort of payoff somewhere. When there is not, there is no point to continuing. Thanks for your input.

Nonsense. I am just calling poor work poor work.
Why not address my "concerns", instead of making an ad hominem attack?

Do YOU honestly think that that is an accurate representation of a woman's body? Then say so, instead of bitching about The Bitch.

You know, I don't care at this point. If this is what this hobby has turned into. Arguing about how accurate anaotomy is for a gaming figure, then I don't want any part of it.

Oh, I keep forgetting. IT'S FANTASY! Therefore it is beyond reproach and immune from any form of criticism.

Forget everything I just wrote. It is perfect in every way. I would hate to be responsible for driving people away from The Hobby.

Me thinks it is a trick of the eye. There is a rear-view on the website – that looks fine!

I agree with virtualscratchbuilder. The rear view is much better. While I'm not fond of the pose, the basic anatomy of this chick is good.

Dblood, grow some thicker skin and stop whining please. People are going to have differing opinions.

Rod

A bit touchy, aren't we? When you work a miniatures con, do you get annoyed with every person who walks by your booth without buying anything? If someone picks your product up, then says it isn't to their taste, do you go into fits about the state of the hobby and wonder aloud why you bother with that convention?

I have to say, based on what I see on your website, that some of your miniatures are fantastic. In particular, the lizardmen by Lee/EML are absolutely spectacular. Even in this Axibalan Empire line, which is not my cup of tea, the Garrity Xitllati is very nice. But I agree with the OFM on this one – it's just not good (and she does still look deformed from the rear view). If you can't take an honest opinion, then I suggest you stop putting your wares out on display. No risk, no reward.

Doug

I'd done with this hobby. thanks folks.

Eric,

I personally think your Dragonblood Miniatures line is fantastic, with lots of really cool looking minis.

Unfortunately, you can never please everyone in any line of business. Somebody always beefs about something. I've run my own business (software), and over the years I did that I quickly learned to focus on the majority of my happy customers, use any negative comments as constructive fuel to continually improve, and simply ignore the occasional jerks.

After all, there are thousands of visitors to this website. Why let a couple bitch & moaners ruin the whole hobby for you? That seems silly to me.

For what it's worth, *I* think it's rather silly too. Why give MY opinion so much weight? After all, I am just some Old Fart with too much time on his hands. It's merely playing into my evil plans…

If the opinions of a notorious crank like myself are enough to drive you from The Hobby, you must have never been all that committed in the first place.

Don't consider this an apology or a retraction, by the way. My opinion still stands.

"Oh, I keep forgetting. IT'S FANTASY!"

Precisely.

I for one am a huge fan of any person who strives to produce figures for our community to enjoy, who exercises their imagination and creative talents as we see from Dragonblood and other indies.

I for one appreciate their efforts, and Dragonblood Miniatures is no exception, whatever the grumpy oldsters in the balcony seats may have to say.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Good to see nothing has changed here at The Miniatures Page. People still making snarky comments about miniatures that they would never buy and then being angered when someone calls them on it.

Seems like a while back TMP was catching flack for going to EASY on miniatures reviews… folks accused us of being one big daisy-chain of sycophants…

I'm not big on the green one… the hip does seem a bit bulbous.
The other one in the post is nicer but his cape looks like a carpet remnant. Not that that would keep me from buying it and claiming it's a PA figure.

Maybe I'm thinking this has something more to do with just one John the OFM, he's relatively harmless just by himself. However, the "nerd/geek" culture is notoriously opinionated, socially awkward, and let's be perfectly honest; cheap and selfish and proud of those facts. ESPECIALLY in this hobby.

Dragonblood has my sympathy, I just wish we had enough to take on his lines. They are pretty well up there in terms of quality. The girl is fine, she's got big hips and standing in a contrapposto stance. Plenty of popular figures deserve criticism before this one. How many people give Copplestone or Pulp crap about their proportions after all? (Not that I dislike either company, but their figures would mostly be circus freaks in real life.)

elsyrsyn: "When you work a miniatures con, do you get annoyed with every person who walks by your booth without buying anything?"

How about the ones that ask you a question and then turn their back on you and walk away before you can open your mouth? Or the ones that act like you just shot their dog even as they're buying stuff from you? We generally have very good experiences at cons, but there are still people who will throw off your entire day just by their presence.

Wait wait wait…
Has anybody checked the DBlood homepage? I hope this is, say, just temporary and due to the deep annoyment that is probably part of a bigger annoying picture, Eric.
What I mean is, no, honestly… NOT THAT because of the OFM.

I don't know. I think she looks like a nice mini to paint up.I like the female mini better then the male mini.

What NBGFH is referring to is that Dragonblood is ticked enough to close the business. What a shame.

Another case of "damn, wish I'd bought when I had the chance".

As to "I am just calling poor work poor work", umm, no, not really. An out of the box blatant trashing, yes. Because frankly, you don't know if it's poor work or not. What you DO know is that you are seeing a picture that may make a particular pose seem awkward. You have no idea if, in the flesh, it is akward or not. I think we have all seen plenty of cases of this before. Other than that appears at first glance to be an awkward stance, it appears to be a clean, well done sculpt.

In fact, the more I look at it, the more it looks like her weight is shifted to the right hip, throwing it out and making her hips look too wide (left hip hidden by shield) with possibly a bend in the non-weight bearing leg. This is looking more and more natural to me, just an unfortunate photo angle deceiving those only giving a cursory look.

Sounds like a LOT of people got up on the wrong side of the bed today.

venusboys3: "Seems like a while back TMP was catching flack for going to EASY on miniatures reviews… folks accused us of being one big daisy-chain of sycophants…"

Depends entirely on what company is being discussed…

Well I don't know if it's worth commenting any further, whether Eric is just impulse-reacting and will change his mind or not… But be this some drama-queen reaction or not, the fact that someone can be driven to that kind of reaction is still rather annoying, and should imo generate other comments than "if you can't handle criticism, then do something else".

"Is this what the hobby has turned into?" (a chance to crap on things, being anal about anatomy and whatever may look right or wrong, or playing art critiques) is something that I've thought myself, and heard from designers more than once.
"when a hobby business earns little, there needs to be some sort of payoff somewhere" is something most people don't get as they hardly have any idea what kind of return the small companies that post news on here here make. We're used to seeing awesome art, sculpts and paintjobs here and on other news sites/forums and I guess that unconsciously, this must mean "full time company run by professionals that make a living out of it". While it's quite often a lot of work from a couple of couple doing it part time (or in their spare time) and being talented and dedicated enough to make their small hobby company look like full time pro stuff, and earning next nothing compared to the time and efforts put into it.
So "If the opinions of a notorious crank like myself are enough to drive you from The Hobby, you must have never been all that committed in the first place" is the worst case of hobby-related urine extracting comment I've read in a while, when you consider this comes from "some Old Fart with too much time on his hands" who uses it to do that kind of posts on TMP, and is addressed to the person who has done such a large share of the high quality designing, sculpting and painting contents that can/could be seen on the Dragonblood website. Because, well – come on: that female sculpt, regardless of the issues it may or may not have, isn't exactly something that looks even remotely ugly or amateurish, is it?

Despite what it may look like, that is not meant as a rant addressed to John the OFM in particular, or a post of support to Dragonblood, whom I don't know personally. Just a "wake up and smell the coffee" rant, aimed at nothing more than speaking my mind on the subject.

I have no interest in fantasy figures in general, and clicked here out of idle curiosity. I was frankly appalled and disappointed at what I found, but unfortunately not surprised.

I've been around TMP for as long as John, and have seen it, and unfortunately him, grow more and more uselessly negative. Since it seems that John in particular seems to revel in his role as leader of the wolf pack, it is generally futile to indulge in criticism of the hostility and rudeness that this sort of behavior encourages. I'm not sure if Dragonblood's admittedly hasty reaction will cause John and some others to reconsider their actions, but unfortunately I can easily see them regarding it as a badge of honor. I can only say that behavior of this sort at my own table would result in an invitation to leave and return after you had reconsidered your social graces, whether you are 17 or 70. Silence is always an option, gentlemen.

Cheers,

Christopher

Great! I went to the webpage and found that Dragonblood minis is closed for business. It's up for sale. Good work guys!

I don't quite get the issue here. John the OFM had an issue with the hips on the character (and, quite frankly, looking at the image shown, he had a very valid point). He might have phrased it more subtly, but, he didn't. Dragonblood minis are on the higher end of the price range, so we tend to expect a higher quality. And Dragonblood minis generally have looked to be of a high quality in sculpting (have never bought any myself, although I may have gotten around to it at some stage).

The manufacturer then takes that criticism and throws his toys out the pram. And the fault is entirely the OFM's?

If you are selling a product and advertising on this site, if it doesn't meet some peoples standards, then expect criticism. If you can't take criticism, then don't advertise where people can write a comment!

And out of curiosity, how much negative criticism has there been of Dragonbloods previous submissions, because I can't remember much negative comments previously?

If someone produced a crap looking Sherman tank and put it up no one would moan about people like ofm having their opinion. But the db guy obviously has more going on than just that comment pushing him over the edge so best to leave the whole thing IMHO

Yep, most of their sculpts have looked excellent.
I don't see where the OFM said anything worse than what has normally been tossed at other sculpts folks don't care for.
Really, there must be more going on than meets the eye…

…and wouldn't ya know… I'd just come into some extra cash and was planning on buying some of their Dark Mariners… I guess now I'll have more in the Scrunt fund.

I don't think it helped that the OFM's comment was the first post, although I agree that Dbloods reaction was a bit extreme.

Dblood should'nt take the critics too seriously, I've seen TMP'ers drooling and fawning over figures that,IMHO looked like they where sculpted in the seventies by a monkey! (and not one of those clever monkeys that wear hats and ride bicycles either!)

Great. Was halfway through an order for Trogs when the cart simply vanished. Wondered why, and then found this thread. Bit of an over reaction isnt it? Is one persons opinion worth that kind of response that you shut the whole thing down? or is just the proverbial straw?

This is bad news, I really liked DB's stuff.

Wow….what an overreaction….storm in a teacup……by all means if he thought TMP was a waste of his time then move on but to sell the whole business?…..wow

Very sad to see this happen.

Maybe, hopefully, he'll have a change of heart after a bit of calm…

Oh dear I wondered when this would happen admitedly its a over reaction to the comments of some one who clearly enjoys pulling the work of others down.

This is nonsense.
I have yet to see anyone say "Hey, that figure really DOES look like a human woman!" I dod see one or two "We,, from a different angle it does not look all that bad."

Instead, it is all about ME!
Instead of defending the qulaity of the particular scuplt, it is all about what a grumpy olf fart I am and how I have driven some poor sensitive artistic flower from the hobby.

I am not entitled to post my opinion? Really? How nice.
Just this week I went out of my way to praise a female warrior that I thought was well done.
More than ever, I think this proves my thesis (which earned me 11 stifles, by the way) that Fantasy figures are immune from criticsm.

I suppose I am not allowed to say that some football players drop too many passes, that some singers' voices are just plain bad, and that some movies make no sense, either.

When a regular hobbyist goes on a lengthy and slightly frantic poo-pooing offensive, that's just considered "a geek being a geek". But when a hobbyist, who's made sacrifices to upkeeping a company that actually contributes to the hobby, reacts to such criticism, then he's considered to be having a tantrum and needing to reconsider his position. Why is that? Why are we supposed to think that DBlood (and by extension, every other sculptor that's operating a garage miniatures business, pick your favourite) is not a hobbyist like us? A hobbyist who derives joy and a feeling of accomplishment from contributing to the hobby and getting thanked for it (or at the very, very least, treated civilly) in return. Dragonblood Miniatures is not Toyota. DBlood doesn't have to sit complacently and get bashed on some principle that shutting down the company is not an option. The rest of us hobbyists need to get over our negativity (which is also what makes the rest of the world disdain and pity us as bad-mannered, acrimonious nerds) and treat the "indie" sculptors with the camaraderie that we show to all other fellow hobbyists, and that they deserve.

I fervently hope that Dragonblood Miniatures gets back up and running again. I find the Shadowsea setting very inspiring, and many of the swords-and-sorcery style miniatures that Dragonblood offers are very much up my alley. But I wouldn't be so quick to say it was an overreaction to shut the business down. I can see why lately, a few very vocal complainers and the generally negative attitude that sometimes takes hold on TMP (as it has recently in regards to fantastical-looking miniatures) have been blinding DBlood to the fact that the rest of us actually appreciate him and his company. Hopefully the clouds will lift again.

IMO, "Song of THE ShadowSea" would be a better title for the rules.

I fervently hope that Dragonblood Miniatures gets back up and running again.

So do I.

BTW, I have no complaints about Gaston deLuc. Impressive looking fighter.

John about half way up I said no one would moan at your moan if it was a misculpted Sherman tank for instance … got nothing to do with your comments that someone decided to spit the dummy in such a big way …

Over reaction. Artist's NEED criticism to grow and get better. Praise is wondrful and validating, but it is the objective JERK whose comments will make you stop and really look at your own work from a different perspective that will allow you to improve and succeed to greater extents.

When I first started out I endured some pretty snarky comments about my work. AT the time I thougth they were in reasonable. Lookign back now, I am glad they made the comments because they provoked better effort and more objective apparaisal from me in my work.

I know hwo tough the effort of runnign a buisness in this hobby can be, and I know how hurtful and frustrating it can be to work SO hard on somethign only to see it fall short of expectations. In the end, no matter what, we have to make the decision to weather the storm and hope fro better results as we carry on.

Eric, you have a good thign going, it is just going to take time to see it fully blossom into what it can be. yes there are issues with the anatomy of you rfemale warrior, nothing serious, and nothing to trash teh figure over. You ALSO did several thigns right that are damned hard to do right. You should be proud of what you have done well and work harder to improve upon the thigns which were not quite up to par.

The design is LOVELY. Really I LOVE it. Teh face is great ( which incidentally is often considered the hardest part fo sculpting a female. The hips are a tad wide, but NO BIG DEAL MAN! Just remember to do better on the next one!

You are learning, and learnign quickly! Don't just throw in the towel now! You are only just beginning!

Dragonblood, I like your work quite a bit. I will point out bad paint jobs and sculpting, but I don't think that is true, especially of these recent sculpts.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, post. I would not sweat the OFM who can be too harsh.

OFM, if you look at ANY line, it is way out of proportion. Complaints about miniatures at this scale for their hip to waist or breasts are ridiculous. They are toys and at this scale, every woman has to be a double D just to look like she has Bs! Same as every GW figure being 4' wide in 1:1 scale. Tom Meir has written about this before.

Leonardo did not become a great painter or ninja turtle in a day, and you can and do a great deal better than me! Good luck. I love a lot of your stuff and hope that you re-open.

This is really too bad. We all have our tipping points where what starts out as a labour of love becomes a giant pain in the ass. For what it's worth Eric, you will be missed. I think your Dark Mariner range was the most exciting miniature range released last year.

Regards,

Keir

Poor guy must have been feeling a bit fragile.

Too bad, I kinda liked the big headress. It would have painted up well.

If he re-opens I will buy a set of them.

OFM is a destroyer of dreams!

And OFM, as to your freedom of speech, of course you have it. You can write or say anything here you wish (within Bill's rules) but that does not mean that what you said was true, accurate, or polite. And neither am I 100% of the time.

After all, you didn't say 'The hips don't work for me, but otherwise there are some nice parts and I like the warrior.'

To the contrary, you said "Do some sculptors even know what a woman's body looks like????"

I am sure that somewhere along the line, Dblood has seen a woman and knows what they look like. You were too harsh, and though I like and admire you, I feel free to point that out.

You may recall that I too have been harsh before. We all get there once in a while. But, since you asked, I think that the female looks about 90% correct. I agree the hips are a bit akward, but others have pointed out that Confrontation female kelts' boobs defy gravity. So, I don't see a great deal of distinction in the 'realism'.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, post. I would not sweat the OFM who can be too harsh.

That's a load of crap… always has been. You're basically saying that we've got no right to an opinion because we aren't the sculptures… which is bunk.
I'm an artist myself and while criticism can hurt it is also the ONLY way to grow and improve.
DB has a load of great sculpts on show but the one in question was sub-par and he got told so.
What? Were we supposed to fawn over it with applause and accolades and leave him wondering why it wouldn't sell?
If we don't pull the punches on lame sculpts from the larger companies like GW then we certainly shouldn't on the little guys because they need to be the best they can if they're going to have any chance of getting attention and keeping afloat.
OFM did the guy a service… he pointed out a flaw in his product… and if his comments were the final straw that drove the guy out of business then that's a service too because if he was that thin-skinned he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Listen to TreManor. I've bought several of your figures, and I think they are fantastic. I knew a girl in high school that looked very much like that from the waist down. 2-3 inches of space between her legs and a butt you could literally set a beer can on.

Remember, there is no real accountability on the internet so many people feel that is their license to be very rude to others without risk of repercussions.

Look, the poor warrior… ess… thingy is clearly displaying Trendelenburg's sign. She should have our sympathy, not mockery. With that condition, untreated in a primitive society, she is unlikely to remain a warrior… ess… thingy for long. Wearing a turkey on your head probably doesn't help it, either.

Allen