"Daemons of Chaos Released [WHFB]" Topic

Well if one day the borders collapse and Chaos rules…what's the point?

No army in the Warhammer universe can be defeated as long as they are supported by a current-edition armybook. So, daemons are unstoppable for another couple of years.

What happened to the concept that the Chaos Gods hated each other more than everyone else. It seems now that you can pick and mix the best troop types from each of the gods, Khorne and Tzeentch followers working together, or worse Nurgle and Slaanesh………..

Bring back Slaves to Darkness and the Lost and Dammed

Well, from what I've read, they had to do away with the demonic animosity because it limited the army too much. The new plastic figures are super!

Animosity is still there it is just represented by not allowing characters to join units of a different chaos power.

Hardly the same thing. The old animosity rules truly limited your army selection, while the new ones do nothing of the sort. I blame their nitwitted decision to make demons (and beastmen, and warriors) completely different lists these days. There simply isn't enough demonic unit variety to do an interesting army using only one or two Chaos powers, so they had to drop true animosity and let you use all four as you please.

The new plastics are, indeed, pretty though.

Still, many of the Chaos players I've known were more interested in simply winning than in variety or anything else like that. The way GW describes and protrays them seems to attract a lot of twinks and munchkins.

Call it a bias – Warhammer is a classic, but sometimes I get sick of "Chaos is unbeatable and will win eventually no matter what you do, nyah nyah!"

As far as the Chaos will eventually win mantra I simply do not pay it any mind even though I play Chaos Marines in 40K and Chaos Mortal in WFB. In regards to WFB Chaos is the army I have played the longest and have the largest collection of figures for because I've been collecting it over 18 years. (Yes my army has many of the classic figures in it)

What I find irritating is that GW seems to never be willing to leave Chaos alone. I think Chaos has perhaps had the most rewrites of any of the forces in either 40K or WFB. As a Chaos player I can tell you that the army is not unbeatable nor is it an uber army as it is tactically limited and realy only does one thing very well which is hand to hand. If you do not weed a Chaos army down before it gets into hand to hand with you then you are in trouble.

As to the force attracting twinks and munchkins I'm not sure I agree with that. I know plenty of excellent Chaos players and yes there is a badguy coolness factor that appeals to the younger crowd. Usually they soon learn if they play with the big boys with an unblanced force they will get slammed hard on the table top as superior tactics takes away any advatage their uber lord and/or unit might have.

"What I find irritating is that GW seems to never be willing to leave Chaos alone."

Isn't Chaos, by definition, supposed to be chaotic?

And ever-changing, even. :)

Whitemanticore's right about them not being powerhouses, though, and with them split into three largely-incompatible armies these days, they do struggle a bit with limited tactical options.

I'm not sure when someone thought making these all-powerful daemons weaker than some army's grunts was a good idea.

I'm still a sucker for the old 2-hardcovers o' Chaos days…

Yeah, there's something to be said for that era. If nothing else, Chaos was still interesting. These days they're split into so many discrete armies that each individual one is just kind of dull to me.

I wish I'd bought those two Chaos books when I had the chance. Could have had them at or near RRP in ~1995 when I saw both at an LGS.

Seems the only ones left that bicker or have issues are Orcs, unless they changed that in the new book.

Orcs still bicker in the new book, however, they toned it down a little. I was very happy with the old way, but do actually like the new (I'm a 100% greenskin player too).

Old rules, roll a d6. If you roll a 1 then they suffer animosity, and you roll again to see what happens. They may fight a neighboring unit (and actually cause casualties), squabble between themselves, or lurch towards the enemy.

So a two-step die rolling thing. And if they were armed with bows then the fighting a friendly unit meant shooting at them. Orcs could die.

Now, it's just one die roll. On a 1 they bicker (stand still, no casualties). On a 2-5 they pass, and on a 6 they lurch towards the enemy (a free move that doesn't count against their normal movement).

So it's not deadly to themselves at all.

However, they offset that in a way I really do like. In the old days, a player could "fix" his army by placing black orc characters in other units. Any unit led by a blackie does not suffer animosity. I always thought that was cheesy (beardy to you UK chaps). Black Orcs would probably not bother leading regular orcs, it's beneath them. So I never did that, and animosity was just something I lived with.

Under the new rules, Black Orcs still do not suffer animosity, nor will they tolerate it. So if a Blackie is leading a unit that suffers a squabble, he will attack them, dealing some potentially fatal blows. So now it's a very risky proposition. I like that.

As a side note, I once had a black orc general join a unit of 10 orcs and lead them. I kidded around about this rule to my opponent and said by the time they reached his troops, I might only have three Orcs left, but they would be HIGHLY motivated. That unit suffered animosity not once but twice. He killed a total of 7 Orcs before they crashed into the enemy, so I actually had only 3 Orcs left. That was a lot of fun!

Anyway, at least animosity still remains for the Orcs. I hope they never take that away.

I guess it's not so bad, though attacking their own units was the appeal since 3rd Edition. When Oglah Khan's Wolfboyz lost this ability in the RoR PDF, they became generic light cavalry. Saving throw rolls for the attacked Orcs by the Black Orc boss or instant kills?

Flipped through the new WFB Daemons book the other day. It's a rare thing to be bored by a WFB army book, but this one succeeded in boring me to disinterest.

The Daemon book definitely isn't as well written as the 40k one. I have 'em both now and enjoyed reading the 40k one more (probably because it's written by two of their better wordsmiths, never heard of the guy who they credit the Fantasy one with).

Wouldn't it make more sense to have one team write up the rules for both forces in tandem and then have crews do the fluff for each?

@ Hundvig, I had them way back then, loved everything in them (now THOSE were fluff books) and ran an army from them. But, the bling they sold for on Ebay more than made up for the tears I wept as I sealed them in a USPS mailing box).

Saving throw rolls for the attacked Orcs by the Black Orc boss or instant kills?

You do get saving throws, for what that might be worth. The Black Orc will cause d6 Strength 5 hits to the squabbling Orcs. That's enough to negate the first two points of any armor save you might have.

Since regular Orcs can only have light armor and a shield, that gives them a 5+ save, and both points would be negated. If the Orcs have only one hand weapon, then they get an extra point of armor save for having hand weapon and shield combo, so they would still get 6+.

But if they have a spear and not a hand weapon, then no save. Or if they have two hand weapons, and did not pay to also bring a shield, again, no save.

So it's probably deadly. D6 S5 hits against T4 Orcs means we're talking about 3+ to cause a fatality.

In a similar vein though, in the new book the Orcs can, once per game, declare a WAAAGH at the start of a turn. This can be good – or bad. Take animosity tests as usual. Even though Black Orc units never test, they are treated as passing with a 6. The general and any unit he is with automatically passes as if they rolled a 6. So they will get to lurch forward d6 inches. All other units you add their rank bonus to the die roll. So it's more likely you will get more units that pass with a 6+ and thus lurch forward.

BUT … if you roll a natural 1 it's still a squabble, and because it happened when the boss declared a WAAAGH they receive D6 WOUNDS.

Again, I like that Orc stuff can be powerful, but also come back to hurt you if it fails in a big way. So there is the occasional negative to make up for the positives.

At least the Boyz have a save, even if slight, but having a 40k style Commissar as unit leader does raise a question: why no fragging chances? I find it hard to believe Orcs would just take it, even if it's from a larger guy.

I think it'd be best if I start a proper thread, as it'd be easier to track on the main boards.