"Goliath: How Many Inches In A 'Cubit'? And A 'Span'?" Topic

Goliath presumably stood six cubits and a span.

Reason: If I were to use Foundry's 28mm "Philistines" (Sea Peoples), how much taller should Goliath's figure be?

Thanks.

CC

I believe a Cubit is 18 inches and a span is 9 inches. So Goliath would be 9'9" tall.

Cheers,
Colin

PS – I really wish I could type properly…

Save yourself the mental agita, and get Castaway Art's "David and Goliath" set. Goliath is REALLY big. I haven't gotten around to painting him yet, (sorry Gerry!), but he is really nice. He looks like a 54mm figure, but I never measured him.

A cubit was normally the distance from your elbow on the table to extended middle inger. A span was thumb to pinkie finger, fully extended.

So, 18" and 6", based on King Argle-Bargle-Ax of the Nematodes.

"Scholars" whose theories blow up in their faces sometimes try to cover themselves with statements like "the shorter Macedonian cubit", but pay them no attention.

In the opinion of This Learned Biblical Scholar, "six cubits and a span" is Hebrew for "He was ing big, Man!"

Ok, so assuming the average man back then was about 5'6" (66 inches – just as an example), and I represented it as a 28mm figure, how tall should Goliath's 9'6" (114 inches)figure be? About 42% taller, or about 40mm?

If so, does anyone make 40mm Philistines?

CC

Thanks, John.

CC

When I get around to them, my Philistines will be Ral Partha for the regular spearmen. I really stocked up on them at the conventions when I could get them for $.50 USD each from Iron wind Metals.
The rest of the infantry are Foundry Canaanite horde and Castaway Arts.
Chariots are RP and CA.
Anyone who thinks there is a difference between "Ancient Hebrew", Israelite, Philistine, "Hyksos", "Arab" or Canaanite dress is really fooling themselves, in my humble opinion. Throw in a few Assyrian auxiliaries while you are at it, especially the Eureka 2-horse chariot.

The RP Biblicals are not as tiny as RP historicals usually are, BTW. They are fully compatible with Foundry.

The recent idea is that Goliath was around 6'10".

Trivia!

A cubit is still remembered in medical terminology to this day. When someone draws blood or starts an IV in your arm they use the AC in your arm. That stands for antecubital fossa or, the depression in your arm just before the cubit. In medical descriptions the heart is the center of the body so everything is described "from" there.

And now you know and knowing is half the battle GI JOE!!

Hat's off to the OFM, what a laudable scheme! Those RP Philistines are superior sculpts.

"Anyone who thinks there is a difference between "Ancient Hebrew", Israelite, Philistine, "Hyksos", "Arab" or Canaanite dress is really fooling themselves, in my humble opinion."

I agree. It would be very difficult for them to have avoided the fashions of nearby nations, particularly at the time of Saul's reign (c1100-1000 BCE), when the Philistines were still inforce and there were still Canaanite enclaves within Israelite territory (Beth-shan and Jebusite Jerusalem, for example).

Interesting list of references to Philistines here:
link

CC

BTW, does anyone else think the Castaway Goliath bears a striking resemblence to "V" in "V for Vendetta"?

Try Irregular Miniature for the 40mm . They have a fairly extensive line. You could also look at Redoubt , as many of their pieces come in at 38-40mm .
Personally, I'm with John. The RalPartha sculpts fit in with Foundry and are superior work. I've set aside a RAFM piece (must be some giant); it's 54mm and has the fringed skirt, scale corset, multi-bossed shield and conical helmet that matches my "movie" remembrances of Goliath.

Cacique – we've had quite a few purchases for the guy on the left as a Goliath.
Graven Images 40mm Bronze Age Champion
picture

Hi

the cubit can vary not only from place to place, but time to time in the same place and culture.

smallest cubit I remember seeing is 14.5" and the longest 21.

Rocky

"The recent idea is that Goliath was around 6'10"."

If he was that big, no one would have remarked on it.

Didn't Bill Cosby do a bit on Noah, building the Ark, and cubits?

This is interesting.

CC

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"Medical speculation -
Some intriguing medical hypotheses have been made concerning Goliath's size and general health. Given his grossly abnormal height (traditionally believed to have been 9 feet, 6½ inches, or 2.91 m), some have suggested that he suffered from gigantism due to a growth hormone-secreting pituitary adenoma. Given the pituitary's position adjacent to the optic chiasm, pituitary masses also tend to impinge on the decussating fibers delivering images from both peripheral visual fields. This causes bitemporal hemianopsia. Some have suggested that this may have allowed David to sneak up on Goliath and deliver a fatal sling shot to the Philistine."
link

"If Goliath was as tall as the Bible claims then he would probably have been suffering from the growth condition, pituitary Gigantism, which has debilitating side-effects including tunnel-vision. So perhaps David's victory wasn't quite so implausible after all. When the factors are taken into consideration it is increasingly likely that it was actually Goliath who was at a disadvantage."
link

"You've heard about Achilles's heel, of course. But does anybody ever talk about Goliath's bad eyes? Well, if Vladimir Berginer is right, the 6-cubit-tall Philistine champion had a condition that made him, like Achilles, more vulnerable than most of his intimidated foes would have guessed.
In a paper submitted to London's Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry, Berginer, a professor at Israel's Ben-Gurion University, argues that Goliath may have suffered from a pituitary condition known as acromegaly. The disease is similar to gigantism in that those who suffer from acromegaly experience an increased secretion of growth hormone that leads to an enlargement of the bones and tissues in the hands, feet and skull.
But acromegaly can also wreak havoc on a person's eyesight, narrowing the field of vision so much that some individuals afflicted with the disease are unable to perceive objects unless they are directly in front of their eyes.
Talk about being blindsided: Berginer speculates that if David approached Goliath from the side, the big guy may never have seen his adversary coming.
So does science open our eyes to the hidden truths of the Bible? Or is this just another case of someone focusing too hard on peripheral details? That's something we'll let our readers decide for themselves."
link

On possible faulty peripheral vision:
link

CC

If he was that handicapped, any normal swordsman or spearman could sneak up on him as well.
If he were that handicapped, he would never have been a Champion, like he was depicted. Could Woody Allen sneak up on Shaquille O'Neill?

No, I still think it was just something on the order of "My God, he must be ten feet tall!" That would have been the impression of runty little hillmen encountering a man 6'10" or 7'2" tall.

He could have been like Andre the Giant – literally HUGE – and while it may have been possible to sneak up on him – would you want to knowing that being that close could get you killed?

If you use the smalled cubit at 14.5 inches – it still makes him nearly 8 feet – which is more probable and still F#^)*@# huge! If he had any mass to his height – 350+ pounds – he would be a champion because no one would want to try to fight him unless they had to fight.

Still – the OFM's comments on the proper figures is spot on!

Unfortunately the length of a cubit had varied greatly across the millennia, both in size and even definition. Wikipedia has a good article on it, showing the cubit varying from around 16 to 24 inches.

Well, the google calculator knows…

Just put
1 cubit in inches
1 span in inches

in the google search bar. Google does more complicated math as well

Google says 1 cubit is 18 inches, and 1 span is 9 inches

If only the Google Calculator had a time period and civilization setting…. :-)

But hey, if it's good enough for Google, it's good enough for me.

"If Goliath was as tall as the Bible claims then he would probably have been suffering from the growth condition, pituitary Gigantism,

Which is possible, but only makes sense if he was a mutant individual. He wasn't, as it's clearly stated that Goliath came from a group that were all gigantic. He was simply the best of the lot. A whole population suffering from a exceedingly rare condition is unlikely at best.

Besides, it won't be long before others reach that height. Already there are numberous people 7+ feet tall. Apparently the chinese are growing rapidly taller because of nutrition.
link

I always thought he was, like, thirty feet tall. With one eye. Or have I been lied to by my Biblical comics and cartoons? The same ones that had David as a ten year old on crutches?

I guess that you are all just polite fundamentalists, and ignoring my revisionist hand-waving.

>I always thought he was, like,
>thirty feet tall. With one eye.

That was Polyphemus. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphemus

MHQ Magazine did an article on slingers in general and this subject in particualr. Goliath didn't have a chace. Give any skilled slinger (what else would a shephard do? Like old west cowboys playing the harmonica and practice their six-guns, David played the harp and practised his slings) a one on one fight vs. a swordsman and the latter doesn't stand a chance. Like brining a knife to a gun fight.
John's arguement makes sense also.

A shield makes all the difference.

In a paper submitted to London's Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry, Berginer, a professor at Israel's Ben-Gurion University, argues that Goliath may have suffered from a pituitary condition known as acromegaly.

And this diagnosis is based on what? This is junk science. Will natural scientists ever learn that ancient literary texts are not lab reports?

Iron Ivan Keith wrote:

"Didn't Bill Cosby do a bit on Noah, building the Ark, and cubits?"

Yes, and it was very funny as I recall . . . "Right . . . What's a cubit?" ;-)

Dave

GarnhamGhast,

Here is your Cyclops skull. :)

link
link
picture
picture

CC

"…I guess that you are all just polite fundamentalists, and ignoring my revisionist hand-waving…"

Evangelical Presbyterian not fundamentalist; not ignoring you, allowing you your freedom of speech; Goliath's height is pretty non-essential in a religious/salvation sense (IMO, YMMV) and only is the back door way to scale based prejudice. <tongue in cheek on that last part.>

Pick a height that looks good to you and buy a figure that matches your expectations. Someone complains, use the Smite button.

Gracias,

Glenn

OFM I would disagree with all those peoples looking the same. Early Hebrews of course would be like Cannanites or Amorites. Later though I think they would have been more like the King David movie as would their neighbours with Syrian influence.

The Philistines would be like Sea Peoples in reed helmets but adapted to local arms and equipment through time. So I suppose the Cannanite allies used with Philistines could also represent the changing Philistines themselves. So mabey we agree then?

I too have Castway Arts Goliath but unpainted ( sorry also Gerry). He is perfect for the job and will replace my Irregular 40mm Philistine as he looks much better.

I suppose we will never know how big Goliath was but I like the idea of him being very big.

I'm surprised nobody has advanced the theory that Goliath simply had very short arms.

You may think this a silly suggestion and claim that all humans follow a close proportion, but I have niniatures which prove it ain't so.

I always thought a cubit was originally from the elbow to the tips of the fingers. This does average to 18" for most people, I would think. For me, it's a ltiile over 19", but that is close enough for rough measurements.

Generally accepted Euclidean geometry has shown that the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159……… no matter how large or small the circle is. That ratio has been given the notation "pi" from the Greek alphabet. Throughout history there have been efforts to prove and even legislate the value of "pi" to a simpler number, one of which is the whole number 3.

In the 2nd Book of Chronicles, Chapter 4, an altar is stated to have been built in the shape of a "perfectly" round saucer containing a sea to these dimensions: 10 cubits across with a brim the size of 1 handbreadth and a circumference of 30 cubits. The Bible at first appears to substantiate the belief that the value of "pi" must indeed be 3, that being the ratio of the 30 cubit dimension to the 10 cubit dimension.

But these two positions are impossible? Here is my answer to the seeming dilemma. Visualize the altar as two concentric circles, one of which is the outside of the brim and the other the outside of the sea and the inside of the brim. The diameter of the outside of the brim is the 10 cubits given in the Scriptures. The 30 cubits is the circumference of the sea.

Therefore the outside circumference of the brim must be 31.4 cubits and the outside diameter of the sea must be 9.5 cubits. This makes the brim .25 cubits thick and a handbreadth therefore .25 cubits. If my handbreadth is typical measuring 4.5 inches overall in width, it follows that one cubit would be about 18 inches.

Which solves the dilemma, makes God, Euclid and Luke Mulder all close enough for government work and shows that religion and science can be in harmony.

Numbers mentioned in the bible should never be taken seriously …

"Let's see, I used to know what a cubit is… Well never mind that Noah. When you get that done, go out into the world and gather all the animals by twos, male and female (two mosquitos, male and female), and put them, into, the Ark"….

I love thread necromancy on TMP….

Goliath presumably stood six cubits and a span.

I remember seeing a documentary pointing out that there was an old manuscript of the old testament that had a different (smaller) number of cubits for the height of Goliath.

The 30 cubit circumference of the 'sea' could be explained by the sea not being a hemisphere but a smaller section of a sphere.

Druzhina
sites of wargaming interest

Numbers mentioned in the bible should never be taken seriously …

And why would you say such a thing? Upon what argument would you base such a position?

I love thread necromancy on TMP….

Whoa, I think we have a new record, 19Feb2007 to 22Aug2012. That's 5 and a half years!

(personally, I lean towards the description translating as "Goliath was fracking *hyuuuuuuuuuuge*, man!")

Here's my effort on the Castaway David and Goliath:

link

Numbers mentioned in the bible should never be taken seriously …

And why would you say such a thing? Upon what argument would you base such a position?

Simply because there are many numbers mentioned that just don't make sense and are simply impossible. The age of some people … ?

But I will not discuss this topic further since discussing religion is not the aim of this thread.

Here is my 0.02 cents.

Goliath was a big, tall guy. He probably pranced about with a big plumed helmet and a whopping big shield and some massive spear that made him look ten times more impressive.

He lived in a warm climate and probably took off most of the fancy gear to fight more effectively with a sensible, but deadly weapon. His size, strength and reach would have made him a formidable opponent.

It's possible that David figured out he was tired after smashing several skulls in the hot sun and using his sling kept well out of reach and wore him down, causing a number of serious injuries and maybe a fatal one. Once Goliath was sufficiently worn down it was easy for him to move in for a killing blow and chop his head off.

The tale grows in the telling etc …

No need for some weird medical condition or advanced ballistics to determine that David may have come up with a new aerodynamic shaped bullet that was 30% more lethal or any other such nonsense !

Right! What's a wargaming cubit?
YouTube link

Goliath's equipment was supposed to have been stored at the tabernacle. Presumably later generations had access to his gigantic equipment. You get this impression from the very precise description of weights, for example.

The OT giants are supposed to be a race of giants, not people with disorders. Don't think anyone with acromegaly would be going into battle, certainly not as a 'champion'

David later visited the priests and got Goliath's sword off them. A short sword for a Giant would be a hand and a half sword for a normal man. So David perhaps had a unique weapon as he was hiding out in the hills from king Saul….

The Hebrew of the Bible describes Goliath's sword as a 'khopesh' – so the quite bad 1985 KING DAVID film gets that right.