"An open letter to miniature manufacturers with websites...." Topic

Dear manufacturers,

Hi there. I've jumped up and down and yelled about this problem in the past, but no one seems to have done anything about it, so it seems that it's time to jump up and down and yell about it again.

Do you know why Games Workshop rules the miniatures gaming world? It's actually pretty easy to understand. All you have to do is stop by their website. Here, I'll even provide a URL for you: link

Spend a little time poking around there. You know what you're going to see? Pictures. Lots and lots of pictures. Pictures of every Miniature that they make. I can actually SEE the models before I put my money down to buy them! These guys are the evil empire, but they make it easy, even CONVENIENT, to buy their products!

By comparison if I go to some so-called REAL miniatures companies and start looking for things, do you know what I get? A list. A list of model names, serial numbers, and prices. AND THAT'S IT. How am I supposed to know if I'm going to LIKE the models that you're selling? Am I supposed to take it on faith that they aren't amorphous blobs sculpted by an arthritic chimpanzee? No, wait! I'm supposed to have your catalog handy! You know, the one you gave out at ToySoldierFest '06, which was only 2000 miles away from where I live!

Look, let me put it simply: If you're a miniatures company, and you have a website, MAKE IT USEFUL! Digital cameras are cheap, and not that hard to use! Provide me, a prospective customer, with the information I need to make an informed purchase! Otherwise stop wasting your bandwidth and my time.

Yours, etc.
IronMike

I agree with you 100% mike
no pic no sale.

Hear, Hear!

I have also heard this from some of the said companies:

"That is a lot of extra effort.." or "I dont have the time or manpower" or something to the equivilent.

Two letters to that: BS
Your in the business of selling and/or making minis. If you dont have the time to show me what your minis look like, then I dont have the time to buy them.

If they have the time and effort to sculpt the miniature, then it should not take too much time to take a picture of it.

Griefbringer

Almost all manufacturers have photos of their new ranges and sculpts. The lack of photos mainly infects older ranges and the smaller, traditional UK shops.

It's prety obvious that gamers who need photos of their minis are NOT their target market. If you need photos, you prob wouldn't buy even if they had photos.

I have piccies on my site of nearly all my range plus loads of shots of them in 'action' plus a gallery. That's a LOT of photographs.

Why not show your appreciation and approval of my efforts by supporting me and placing an order or two rather than complain about those who don't behave in such an exemplary fashion?

Cheers

Peter Berry
Baccus 6mm
baccus6mm.com

First, I believe things had gone better in the last few years. Most quality products are now marketed through high-quality websites (that include lots of large-clear photos).

In my experience, those that cling to the old 'list and numbers' way of selling miniatures have outdated products that would not stand the scrutiny of modern wargamers…In my opinion, many such manufacturers base their sales of such products on 'samples' purchased by curious customers!

There has been not one signle time that I bought something sight unseen without regreting the purchase afterwards (and this goes far beyond miniatures!) So, I have a policy:

No (large-clear) photos – no buy!

I understand that this is unfair to some manufacturers that run family business AND have quality products but limited time to photograph/post them in their websites. My apologies, but this is a problem of the wargaming 'industry' that I cannot afford to resolve using my own money…

Here, I said it (again)!

Is it time for this debate again?
Last time we had:
1. Pictures are essential
2. Pictures are easy to take these days
3. Small companies don't have the staff time to take pictures
4. You still need some technical knowhow to take a flattering picture of the mini's
5. Unless you have taken pictures when you produce new mini's you might be looking a backlog of thousands needing pictures.

Did I miss anything?

Jeremey
minigerm.com

I make allowances for someone who buys a defunct company with stock of thousands. Usually, I already know what they look like. But, if I don't…
I agree.

I wasn't going to jump on the bandwagon because I've been guilty of continuing this debate, but with the high quality and low cost of supporting pictures on an internet shop I have to say that it's poor business not to have a representative sampling. If it costs say $500 USD to produce one figure and it only costs $.50 USD to put up a picture, I think the picture is a good investment.

If a business is unable or unwilling to have useful photos of your product on their own website, have the URLs of other people's online photos of your product available. Call it a "Virtual Fan Gallery". This would simply be list of links to other folks websites and what products they show. That has to be cheaper and easier than taking photos yourself.

3. Small companies don't have the staff time to take pictures
4. You still need some technical knowhow to take a flattering picture of the mini's
5. Unless you have taken pictures when you produce new mini's you might be looking a backlog of thousands needing pictures.

I agree. It's the manufacturers without even a few photos of a sampling of their packs among a larger range that would bother me. At least with a sampling of photos per range there is the appearance of an effort.

Some companies do have a few pics but… why bother?! Look at Newline and Old Glory. The pics on OG are horrible. You can't tell what they REALLY look like and Newline is one step above NOT having pics. Newline also has dead links. It is a mess.

And the new OG site doesn't even have the pictures of many of their ranges any more since they "renovated/upgraded (?)" their site. Come on guys, get with the pictures!

Jim

While I agree with the opening thread in principle, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that complaining about the dearth of adequate catalog photos on many sites is a bit like grousing about the weather…

Sounds like there's a business oprotunity here. I wonder how much a manufacturer be willing to pay to have some one solve this problem for them.

Some people would do it for the lead, you know

If I haven't seen any pics of given line or from given manufacturer.
I'll
a) Google for piccies
b) Ask for piccies at [TMP]
c) ask for samples*
d) see them in flesh at some con.

*free samples are nice, but the "Baccus"-method is fine for me. Here take a look your self: link

And Peter @Baccus6mm, don't worry, I still got you on my shopping list. Just too many 'other' projects…

Oh ! I sound like Baccus sockpuppet, and I even haven't placed any proper order to them! Just one single sample pack, years ago…

Games workshop owns the market and has the website because thet are funded and majority owned by the bank of Scotland {so I hear}. This is also why you pay the price for there product. the manufactutres that do not provide pics either cannot afford it or simply do not care if you order there product or not. in the end, constantly wining about it like a baby will not help. some suggested new names for the miniatures page -- "the winy baby page", "the old women gripe page", "the cheapskate page", "the know it all page" …

Well, I do have pictures--one example of unpainted and one example of painted for each of my figures. They are admittedly not the best but I think give a nice impression of the figures. My hope is to continue improving my skills as a photographer as I produce more figures. Since I am brand new and a small niche within a niche within a niche (and perhaps a few more niches) market, I have found having pictures invaluable.

David
splinteredlightminis.com

Iron Mike,

Have you actually provided anything new to this discussion since it was last covered slightly more than a month ago. Here, to make it easy for you I'll even provide a URL: TMP link

The people you need to reach are unlikely to be net savvy and probably do not even read TMP. You are therefore flogging a dead horse (poor thing, it gets whipped almost every month), and adding to the vast bulk of TMP messages that accomplish nothing.

"Have you actually provided anything new to this discussion since it was last covered slightly more than a month ago."

"You are therefore flogging a dead horse and adding to the vast bulk of TMP messages that accomplish nothing."

I think topics like this deserve to be beaten to death on a regular basis. The idea is that someone at these companies 'might' actually wake up and smell the coffee some day.

I agree with EVERYTHING that Baccus wrote (I'm doing my best, getting the figures out often outstrips getting the photos out) and thanks to John the OFM for appreciating my situation!

In the long term there is no excuse for not getting a decent proportion of pictures out. My own target is 100%, though frankly I admit it's unlikely I'll ever achieve it.

Even older well established figure companies that populate everyones table has to take into account that there are new gamers to that era that don't know their stock. When I got into 15mm Fantasy there are several companies with figures that I did not but due to "no pic no buy" rule of mine. Black Raven get lots of my dollars as well as Thanes and ERM because they have pics. Sorry to everyone else but…

Previous sales to strangers means nothing to me. I hope others will see sales drop and wake up.

OK

yes pics are important, and I take pics of all my packs, and post them on the site, the pics are not the best in the world, because I have a cheap camera, and can't really afford a technical marvel, preffering instead to put the money to good use by getting more figures sculpted.
I also have a gallery with painted pics that were sent to me by customers, and a few of my own, blimey I even put in a comparison pic so people can see how my stuff compares with another company.

However, I work in the real world too, from 8.30 to 5.30 ,5 days a week, i also make vehicle masters for my company, and others, and try to do at least 2 hours a day on this, plus find time to commit to my family, and do the daily running of Anglian Miniatures, I also have to try to squeeze in some painting and terrain building too, and some days I also manage to get some sleep!!!!

So please remember, A lot of us flog ourselves to get figures to you guys, we don;t all have a massive marketing dept, or a dedicated webteam, nor do we have mail order trolls,heavy metal teams for painting, and shops in a lot of high streets, but somehow we continue to churn out some excellent ranges, and have half decent website for your entertainment.

So just for a change, how about saying, hey great stuff you small guys, can't believe how you manage to get such great miniature ranges out, instead of having a downer on us.

Nigel H
Anglian Miniatures

also once accomplished it doesn't need to be redone only updated. Take a day or a rainy weekend.

I like Baccus' approach. Vote with your money.

It's only relevant if you actually order stuff over the Internet. Obviously many of y'all do.

Raven's Forge Miniatures – ravensforgeminiatures.com – has had pictures up on the web since nearly day one of our web presence. I am working on collecting pictures of painted figures to add as well, but pictures that customers have sent in.
I agree with Baccus6mm – "Why not show your appreciation and approval of my efforts by supporting me and placing an order or two rather than complain about those who don't behave in such an exemplary fashion?"
I have heard this rant over and over. Here is an idea – if you own figures form a manufacturer who doesn;t have figs on the website – why don;t you make some pictures and send to them? Maybe offer to take pictures for a few sample figs? Couldn;t hurt. I know if someone offered to take pics and format them for me, I would be willing to send them the figs, and some extra as a thank you. Just a thought. . .

OK – there's a lot of photo's sell no photo's will not sell, so I thought I'd go and have a look in the admin section of our website at oour `best sellers', and the correlation against photos. (For background we have around 2500 items on our website with around 400 photos).

Of the top 20 items selling 8 have photos. 3 in the top 10.
I don't doubt that other manufacturers would find something similar. So do photo's sell? The jury's out.

Paul
QRF / Freikorps

"Games workshop owns the market and has the website because thet are funded and majority owned by the bank of Scotland {so I hear}."

Ah, just the sort of informed, accurate post that just perfectly encapsulates the tone of this thread.

Pray continue.

[Munch, munch, munch]

Allen

The question is never, "do photos sell or not sell?," But, "What type of photos sell you items?"

GW was used as the prime example to follow, without consideration as to what they at their disposal to make their photos work for them.

They have the expensive equipment and the people who know how to photograph figures and then touch up those photos on the computer. The person that does this sort of stuff is not casting, sculpting, packing, or mold making.

What type of photos do sell? Just the bare metal? Metal that is primed? (What do you with the metal figures that are primed afterwards?) Painted figures? (And then are you buying the figures or the paint job?) How many figures do you show from the pack – some say a sampling, where as others won't buy unless they can see everything in the pack?

And, it is stated that the whole process is simple – for some yes, for others no. And, the process can be costly, especially if the desire is for painted figures. I believe in one the last go arounds on this issue, painters were chiming in that they should get paid $25.00 USD or more for doing minis that are used by manufacturers for the purpose of selling.

Depending on large a catalog a manufacturer has, and how well they can take photos, work them up into the proper jpegs for viewing, time is another factor. One thing that is sometimes forgetton by gamers, but well known to manufactors, is if you take to much time between product releases, photos or not, people tend to forget about your company and it's products. Thus, the balance of time between photographing what was and producing what the gamer is hoping for in the near future.

The companies that have achieved photos off all their products are waiting for your suppport, who claim, "no photo, no purchase!" And, as much as people bring this argument up over and over again, the same merchants always chime in, "I have done what you asked, where's your support of my efforts?"

Joel

"Games workshop owns the market and has the website because thet are funded and majority owned by the bank of Scotland {so I hear}."

Ah, just the sort of informed, accurate post that just perfectly encapsulates the tone of this thread.

Pray continue.

[Munch, munch, munch]

Allen

You're a bad, bad person, Allen. Just stifle him and be done with it.

Either that or give us a good joke about how cheap the Scots are. :)

Rich

When I designed the Pulp Figures website a few years ago, I was strongly in favour of pictures for all figures.

In fact, the control panel that allows Bob to add new figures to the site will not allow a new SKU to be created unless a picture is uploaded! It wasn't actually a conscious decision, as Bob was also strongly in agreement with me, so it's not like I needed to force him into uploading pictures. :)

avidgamer wrote: "I think topics like this deserve to be beaten to death on a regular basis. The idea is that someone at these companies 'might' actually wake up and smell the coffee some day."

They don't read TMP or other fora. It is a waste of time.

Small companies will change only if they have someone on staff with the commitment to bring them into the internet age. And that won't happen as a result of some ass braying on TMP.

Also interesting to note the ratio of `hits' to sales. One of the newer models (with a photo) in our range has recieved 300 viewings in the five months the website has been operational. 300 hits has converted into 4 purchases. Another model which has no photographs has 50 hits – and we've sold 5 times that number. I'm afraid it comes down to – if someone wants it badly enough (and no one else does the model) it will probably sell photo or no photo.

Similarly if it's not a period that's currently popular you can paint like Dallimore and photograph like Lord Snowden and you still won't sell any.

We'll carry on with the photography regardless….

Paul

QRF/FK

Hey, sixthlancers, all in keeping with your new appellational epiphany, the "Know It All Page," know this:

link

I have occasionally sent good quality photo image files of finished figures to manufacturers who (a) have no image of that particular mini up; or (b) have an unfinished, "green" or poor photo image up. With an invitation to use the photo, because I enjoy and support both the hobby and the manufacturers I buy from.

None have yet utilized my offerings, but to the extent this debate is like the weather… hey, I'm trying to do something about it!

Major Kong

Any popcorn left?

Hey kong, You are just what I am talking about. Your right, I used a wrong word -- oh my god – the truth is now known that sixthlancers is not perfect,makes mistakes, is human, and is not quite a rocket scientist!!!! OOOOOOOH the shame of it all and someone like you who is not like I has revealed the ugly horrible important truth. Oh to be perfect--- sigh

I'm consumed with remorse.

…Right now, the guys over at Mongoose may be thinking that LESS pictures may be a better approach…

Also, lest we forget: Games Workshop did not build its business with pictures on the internet. Even when I joined it in 1983, GW was a large company for a games business, having got its lucky break by deciding to import a product that sold well.

GW has a large network of its own shops where it is possible to see and use the products first hand, encourage the impulse purchase, and get modelling and painting tips. It had this network and built its business before the internet.

Its figures are also available through independent retailers, allowing even gamers in out of the way places like mine to see figures direct.

Its physical reach is greater than almost any figure manufacturer can ever aspire to.

By the time it switched to selling figures rather than games – again before the internet era – it already had the resources in place to promote them: a large body of gamers and painters on staff, plus a house magazine with a large print run for articles and, yes, pictures.

To point to its website and simply say that GW succeeds because its site is laden with pictures is idiocy of the first order.

Obviously if I'm searching for 25/28mm Vikings and see a company's website with 2mm WWI Brits (that are expertly painted and photographed) I'm not buying them… this time. I look for figs that are nicely sculpted first. A nice paint job ISN'T important to me. I just want to see how they are scultped. I do not buy miniatures sight unseen, NEVER. I don't care how much a company complains or whines on TMP. Nowadays pics are PART of selling _anything_ on the Net… period! At the VERY LEAST if you come out with a new line spend time posting pics of them. Do the older lines later if need be. Just post pics. Bare metal is fine… greens are fine… Excuses excuses are not fine.

I work two jobs. I have little time for family and fun as well. It's just the way of life. Get over it.

"I don't care how much a company complains or whines on TMP."

Never heard a company complain/whine about not being to sell without photos. It's those who won't buy without pictures, like yourself, who complain and whine repeatedly about this.

Some small shops work two jobs and also have little time for family and fun. If they are happy with a smaller business and more time for other things, it's their choice to make. Get over it.

Also compare this thread with TMP link where all the pretty pictures in the world won't make some respondents buy GW figures because of their high prices.

"Why not show your appreciation and approval of my efforts by supporting me and placing an order or two rather than complain about those who don't behave in such an exemplary fashion?"

1) You don't do any figures in the scales I game in.
2) I'll show my appreciation/approval by telling people who do game in 6mm about your website.
3) Your "I've done something good – BUY FROM ME NOW!" tone is wrong.

If pictures sell, then why is someone complaining about the pictures on the Old Glory site?

TMP link

Um. Joel.
Because whatever pics ARE on the OG site pretty much suck.
The aspect rations of a MAJORITY of the pics on your website are way, way off…

The "webmaster" doesn't understand pixel rations and forces whatever pictures you actually have into the size allocated for the picture without spending the 30 seconds it takes to re-size the image in photoshop.

For the other "manufacturers" that bitch about having day jobs and "not having time"

I have a day job as well, yet I can spend the 30 minutes it takes to take some decent pics of the unique items I am selling on e-bay on a regular basis, so I don't understand the complaint…

I would be interested to find out how many of you actually understand just how much work is involved running a figure company, from some of the stupid replies on this thread its obvious that a good few of you don't.

Yes, I agree, having photos of you product is important and I prefer having the chance to see what I am buying first, and you can find a few spare minutes to take some pics, but in some cases that appears still not to be good enough for some of you ;-[[[[[[

I still get the idea that most of you think that we have a team of magic pixies that do all the work for us, whilst we sit back in a chair and watch.