Help support TMP


"The Russians at Fraustadt 1706" Topic


11 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Wargaming in the Nordic States Message Board

Back to the 18th Century Discussion Message Board



1,760 hits since 11 Oct 2006
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Patronica Inactive Member11 Oct 2006 11:50 a.m. PST

At the battle of Fraustadt there was some 10 battalions of Russians involved and as far as my research goes they were named after their colonels:

IR Troizki (2 bat)
IR Inglis (2 bat)
IR Patkul (2 bat)
GR Repnin (1 bat)
IR Gulitz (1 bat)
IR Arnstedt (1 bat)
IR Belling (1 bat)

Anyone know what their "regional" names were?

Hwiccee Inactive Member11 Oct 2006 3:39 p.m. PST

Not an easy question to answer. Where did this list of units come from?

I suspect a Swedish source. There is another, different, list of the unit here – link again from Swedish sources.

Unfortunately the Russian sources don't agree with this list! More on this later.

Your List:
Troizki is probably another spelling of Troitsky, or at least that is the most likely. But the unit with this name wasn't called this until later on and according to the Russians was not in Poland. It is possible that this was a unit from this area if your list is correct.

Inglis: This unit later became the Vyborg regiment. It was garrisoning Narva according to the Russians.

Patkul: This unit was certainly at the battle and survived to fight later in the war, indeed it was quite a high status unit. It was later called 'Rentzel's' or the 'Saxon' regiment. It was not 'named' (given a 'regional' name & I don't know what happened to it after Peter the Great's time). The number of battalions is uncertain.

Repnin's Grenadiers: The Russians are not supposed to have grenadier battalions at this time but there is some evidence that they did. Most likely this means (if the unit really existed) that the unit is an ad hoc formation formed for the battle.

Gulitz: This unit also was almost certainly at the battle. It was disbanded after the battle & the remaining men put into Patkul's/Rentzel's unit above.

Arnstedt: No information.

Belling: Possibly the Siberian regiment. The location of this regiment is uncertain. More likely these last 2 units are as Gulitz above.

What the Russians say:
So the above would be my best bet if the Swedish sources are correct. Unfortunately I don't think they are, or at least they are not helpful.

The Russian units at Fraustadt were part of a low quality Corps sent to help the Saxons/Poles some years before. So it is very unlikely that units that would be 'named' would be there. There was also a lot more than 10 battalions available in this group but they had been campaigning for some time. Finally 9 units (7 'Line' and 2 Streltsy) were disbanded after the battle & the remaining people put into Patkul/Rentzel's unit, 6 of these are identified by the Russians as being there. Many other units were also disbanded after the battle but not put into another unit. These include at least 1 unit that the Russians say was at the battle but didn't go to Rentzel's unit.

We therefore have lots of possibilities. Maybe the 'battalions' were composite battalions made up of a number of real, but by this time small, battalions. Maybe the battalions were Patkul/Rentzel's plus the 9 units added to this unit. Maybe it was a combination of the 2. Maybe Patkul/Rentzel's had 2 battalions and there was a combined grenadier unit of some kind – with the balance being made up of the 7 units the Russians say were there or some other combination.

For various complicated reasons I have my best guess, but it is a guess. But I am 99% sure that the units at the battle, except for Patkul/Rentzel's, were never 'named' & indeed were disbanded after the battle.

Patronica Inactive Member11 Oct 2006 5:57 p.m. PST

That I call an answer – Respect!

Musketier on the March Inactive Member27 Sep 2011 6:49 a.m. PST

(Apologies for the changed name tag, but Musketier's old access was wiped off his office computer…)

Found this old thread and was wondering whether five years on, a little more might be known about those Russian regiments, in particular their uniforms?

Trying to decide whether it's worth including a few units with my planned Saxon forces (Wargames Factory plastics).

On Wiki it says they wore their uniforms inside-out on the day, which would seem to make sense if they were of the green variety with red facings, as turning them would let the troops blend in with their Saxon allies. Interesting if true, but difficult (and somehow pointless) to model…

9th Maine27 Sep 2011 7:00 a.m. PST

You might want to check out this blog that has details on the Russian Corps from Russian sources. No guessing like that above. You might also want to obtain a copy of Oskar Sjöström's "Fraustadt 1706 ett fält färget rött". The most recent study of the campaign and battle published in 2008. Disregard the "opinions" above, go to the sources.

9th Maine27 Sep 2011 7:02 a.m. PST

Soory. The blog address is link

Musketier on the March Inactive Member27 Sep 2011 8:08 a.m. PST

Wow! That was quick, and there's certainly a lot of material come out since then. I don't read Russian unfortunately but can manage Swedish – many thanks for these pointers!

karamustafapasha Inactive Member27 Sep 2011 9:13 a.m. PST

Since the original message was posted a lot more Russian information is available. Basically this Corps was originally 26 battalion (without a grenadier battalion). By the time of Fraustadt they had been reduced to 10 battalions, including a grenadier battalion. The link 9th Maine gives has the details of the force as at Fraustadt. The uniforms are in the Hoglund/Sallnas/Bespalov booklet 'The Great Northern War 1700 – 1721, Part II: Sweden's allies and enemies' from Acedia Press.

Altefritz27 Sep 2011 9:18 a.m. PST

You can look also here:

link

Based on swedish sources, I believe.

Fabrizio

Musketier Supporting Member of TMP27 Sep 2011 12:20 p.m. PST

Thank you all. The Höglund book I understood to be out of print, but the link reproduces the key information I was after – and would seem to confirm the "turncoat" story…

Gromoboy Inactive Member11 Apr 2014 8:17 a.m. PST

Russian infantry regiments got "provincial" names in 1708, dragoons – in the end of 1706. The remnants from all regiments of the Patkul's Corps were combined after Fraustadt into a single 3-battalion regiment under podpolkovnik Samuel von Rentzel. It was the only survived unit of the Patkul's Corps. Later during the GNW it was called after the colonel or Saksonskiy (Saxon)

The Corps was of 11 regiments in June of 1704, in August the number reduced to 9. See details here:
link
Patkul's regiments usually were called battalions because their strength (ab. 800 men) was about a Saxon infantry battalion. In September of 1705 grenadier companies were detached to form a converged grenadier battalion.
link
So, the Corps became of 10 batts (9 "old" regiments + grenadiers). The info provided by Alexander Bespalov (26 batts & their "uniforms") which was latter used in Hoglund's work & other books is a FAKE.

Out of 11 regiments (in June of 1704) the 3 were raised in 1700 & had very limited battle experience, one were Streltzy from Smolensk & the rest were troops raised in 1703-1704

At Fraustadt the Corps was of 10 battalions. The closest table, that I found, is dated 10 Dec 1705 (2 months before the battle)
link
By the day of Fraustadt the Corps reduced from 6 523 men to 6 362

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.