Wyatt the Odd | 15 Aug 2006 10:50 p.m. PST |
Here's the trailer for this WWI flick – the characters appear to be part of the Lafeyette Escadrille. link At first, I was hopefull. Nice, never-before scenes of WWI dogfighting. Some of those maneuvers looked like they were possible in those machines. Others were possible only if the pilot didn't mind flapping his arms on the way down after the wings ripped off. Then, as the trailer went on, I started thinking "Pearl Harbor". Here are the glaring errors that I saw: 1. Fighters flying in bomber formation doing mid-level bombing run. 2. Allowing for a bombing attack with fighters – I think these are Neiuports – those bombs are more destructive than 25 pound bombs could ever hope to be. 3. ALL the German aircraft are solid-red Fokker triplanes. There is a reason why Manfred von Richtofen's all-red dreidecker stood out – his was the only one. 4. This might be a mis-identification, but why would a Zeppllin be out in the daylight with fighter escort? I thought at first that it was an observation balloon, but the puppy has engines. I'm not a WWI expert by any means, but wouldn't the main German aircraft in use be the Albatross? The Fokker triplane didn't serve long at all. (sigh) Still, it has a zepplin. Wyatt |
TheCaptainGeneral | 15 Aug 2006 11:58 p.m. PST |
This is why I should make a film
|
Arteis | 16 Aug 2006 12:56 a.m. PST |
Still looks like a fun movie though. I'll certainly go and see it, based on the trailer. So far as accuracy goes, I see it is directed by the same person who did 'Independence Day' and 'The Patriot'
nothing more to say really, is there?! |
Azantihighlightning | 16 Aug 2006 1:16 a.m. PST |
It looks entertaining, but history it ain't |
Gav Tyler | 16 Aug 2006 1:21 a.m. PST |
My heart dropped when I saw who made it
But I would really like to go and watch this one anyway! |
Plynkes | 16 Aug 2006 1:33 a.m. PST |
Well at least it's set in 1917, which was the Dreidecker's time of glory. That's something, I suppose. But the "Fokker Scourge" was the Eindecker, not the Triplane, and that was 1915. |
adster | 16 Aug 2006 2:29 a.m. PST |
Well from the look of it that will be the last WW1 airwar movie made for a generation. Maybe they will manage the "Top Gun effect" of the flying scenes saving an otherwise dire film, but only if they saved some good ones that were not in that trailer. On a positive note they have taken the brave decision to include a lot of spontaneous explosions rather than let any sense of reality get in the way. |
Doms Decals | 16 Aug 2006 2:40 a.m. PST |
Looks dire. My one hope is that Jean Reno somehow manages to save it, as nothing else there inspires confidence
. |
phililphall | 16 Aug 2006 4:09 a.m. PST |
The initial claim back in the spring was they used real airplanes, no CGI. Some of the N-17 are actually ultralights. Then there was the statement that "With CGI we were able to make these planes do things they couldn't do!" Like that was a good thing. Did anyone else get the impression that the N-17 destroyed the zep by flying THROUGH it? And I'm pretty sure I saw the scene of the guy running along a slow-blowing zep in The Rocketeer. History disappears from a historical movie once again. |
nazrat | 16 Aug 2006 4:40 a.m. PST |
Visible flying bullets, massive explosions, a black man proving himself, somebody outrunning HUGE firey blasts, and at least five mentions of FREEDOM! Yeah, it'll be a classic
|
Lord Billington Wadsworth | 16 Aug 2006 4:44 a.m. PST |
"So far as accuracy goes, I see it is directed by the same person who did 'Independence Day' and 'The Patriot'
nothing more to say really, is there?!" Yup – that was my first thought as well. Maybe it will do OK and other directors will jump on the WWI is a cool setting for a film – and there will be others. 320 were made before 1918 – and they are all in this film. ;) It's like Tiger Syndome. (What? Every german didn't have their own tiger tank?) |
Chogokin | 16 Aug 2006 5:47 a.m. PST |
Hmm
how about digging up a copy of Hell's Angels, by Howard Hughes, circa 1930? |
jpattern2 | 16 Aug 2006 6:01 a.m. PST |
|
Mulopwepaul | 16 Aug 2006 6:23 a.m. PST |
Pursuit planes, people; they're not fighters until World War II. PVO |
ajbartman | 16 Aug 2006 6:28 a.m. PST |
Will have to go see it. Looks like fun
not very historical, but as my son says "history is old and borning" It will give me something to research to find all the bad/wrong stuff about the movie. |
Doms Decals | 16 Aug 2006 6:39 a.m. PST |
Scouts, people, they're not pursuit planes until the 1920s
. Dom :-p |
DsGilbert | 16 Aug 2006 6:42 a.m. PST |
I'm with ajbartman. It looks like a good popcorn movie. Sit back and put your mind in neutral. |
Mulopwepaul | 16 Aug 2006 7:41 a.m. PST |
To be fair, Vickers was calling its planes "Fighting-Type" almost from the beginning, but Jagdstaffeln tactics made the usage "pursuit plane" common by the end of the war to refer to the planes specially designed to kill other planes. After the war, the distinction was formalised. PVO |
William Pitt the Eldar | 16 Aug 2006 7:41 a.m. PST |
They can't all be as accurate as "Darling Lili". |
TX Tanker | 16 Aug 2006 7:48 a.m. PST |
We still have "The Blue Max". |
Slagneb | 16 Aug 2006 8:26 a.m. PST |
The Blue Max
now there is a Great WW1 movie! |
BlackWidowPilot | 16 Aug 2006 10:11 a.m. PST |
<sigh> The all-red triplane horde is what is putting me off here
>;p Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net (Perhaps for a bunch of *spacefighter minis* but not a bunch of TRIPLANES!) |
Double Ace | 16 Aug 2006 10:45 a.m. PST |
Sad. Too bad they couldn't have done it with historical accuracy, since there was so much color anyway during the war. Surely enough to do it correctly, with enough interest for all
.. Hopefully, some reasonable writer/director will bother to do one eventually. With all of the replica WW I aircraft out there, or the relatively low cost to make them, coupled with CGI, it should be fairly easy to do. |
aecurtis | 16 Aug 2006 11:47 a.m. PST |
Hollywood? Historical subject? To paraphrase the OFM's oft-repeated question: Why would one have any high expectations of such a combination? Are we all such slow learners that taking into account the track record of the film industry over the past fifty years, we still have a glimmer of hope? Come on, now. Allen |
Lord Billington Wadsworth | 16 Aug 2006 12:16 p.m. PST |
I think they go with red triplanes so the audience easily recognizes who the badguys are. It's like every german has an MP-40, and only marines fought in the pacific. |
WarWizard | 16 Aug 2006 12:40 p.m. PST |
It looks entertaining. But then again the producer's (Dean Devlin) credits are Independence Day, The Patriot and they forgot to mention (on purpose I'm sure) Godzilla. link So I don;t think we can really expect too much, can we? |
Mulopwepaul | 16 Aug 2006 1:03 p.m. PST |
"I think they go with red triplanes so the audience easily recognizes who the badguys are." Three wings bad! Two wings good! All flying machines are equal, but some are more equal than others. PVO |
javelin98 | 16 Aug 2006 1:08 p.m. PST |
Godzilla
*shudder* I agree with Humphrey Golden' comment on the other thread — one scene just looks way too much like the assault on the Death Star II to be held in anything but contempt. |
CPBelt | 16 Aug 2006 1:10 p.m. PST |
The Rocketeer was pure pulp, so ti could get away with all kinds of scenes like the Zepplin. And there there is Howard Hughes and so on. That's why I like that movie. This movie looks totally stupid. Beverly Hills 90210 in WWI. It will be in the $1 USD theater within a few weeks. BTW I love the 'inspired by a true story.' Hah! Were blacks in the French air force? |
Daffy Doug | 16 Aug 2006 1:23 p.m. PST |
Wow. I am surprised that this many people want to talk about a WW! aircombat movie that isn't even out yet! It looks putrid. |
nazrat | 16 Aug 2006 1:48 p.m. PST |
That's exactly why we're all talking about it, Humphrey! 8)= |
JimSelzer | 16 Aug 2006 2:07 p.m. PST |
Well if its CGI maybe they can fix the horde of red planes problem with a color editor |
vonMallard | 16 Aug 2006 3:03 p.m. PST |
Hey its Hollywood
the movies is designed to sell popcorn not be historically accurate
|
Ceasers Legionary | 16 Aug 2006 3:53 p.m. PST |
LoL had to go and watch this after reading your comments, I think it will be quite good. Historical accuracy aside of course i think that if you watch it as a lighthearted film (like say biggles – which was pretty bad). Then it will be entertaining. For accuracy i would stick with the blue max or Aces high. good to see that someone decided to do a ww1 area film though. |
Wyatt the Odd | 16 Aug 2006 4:26 p.m. PST |
"Were blacks in the French air force?" The unit depicted is supposed to be the Lafeyette Escadrille made up of American volunteers. I do not recall if Eugene Bullard, America's first black pilot was part of the unit, or if he joined the regular French air corps. I do know that one African-American pilot had "all blood runs red" painted on the side of his airplane. Perhaps this is his true story that the movie is allegedly based on. If it is, then they are mis-marketing it. Wyatt |
nazrat | 16 Aug 2006 6:47 p.m. PST |
Wyatt, thanks for mentioning Bullard! I found this link at the top of the Google search, and his story would make an excellent Hollywood movie if done even partially right. Too bad they probably never will
|
aecurtis | 16 Aug 2006 7:06 p.m. PST |
Better with: - Denzel or - Samuel L.? Allen |
Double Ace | 16 Aug 2006 10:28 p.m. PST |
Seems to me that following a squadron in combat, for a short bit, would make for a decent movie. Obviously Richtofen's or Boelke's Jastas would work, but which units should be chosen for the allies? Maybe it should be a double feature, like Clint Eastwood's upcoming WWII flick. Seems to me that this is a very colorful era, and sadly neglected by the movie production companies. |
Bangorstu | 17 Aug 2006 3:55 a.m. PST |
OK, since we're wargamers, the hordes of red Dreideckers is going to annoy. But this film will be aimed at an American audience. I'm guessing that WW1 isn't that well known in the USA compared to Europe amongst the general population. But they'll all have heard of the Red Baron. So you use red planes so everyone knows who the bad guys are – if the aerial combat is too confusing then people will lose track of the plot. Though I agree, it's a pity the brightly coloured German paint schemes weren't used. I'll probably go and see it, although there is worrying evidence of the 'stuck up Brits' cliche again. Ask yourself, would you rather Hollywood produced bubble gum WW1 movies, or another teen-film? |
Mulopwepaul | 17 Aug 2006 6:50 a.m. PST |
For WW, all the Germans are psychotic Junkers, all the British are frigid conformists, and the Americans are naive farmboys. If you mess with the formula, Hollywood won't be able project how the audience will relate to it. What's more important to Hollywood is predigesting the product so that it conforms to established public consumption forecasting models, not producing anything new or "better," because meeting sales forecasts is the definition of the good. PVO |
BlackWidowPilot | 17 Aug 2006 9:46 a.m. PST |
<<It's like every german has an MP-40, and only marines fought in the pacific.>> THE THIN RED LINE 'Nuff said. >;D Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net |
BlackWidowPilot | 17 Aug 2006 9:59 a.m. PST |
<<I do not recall if Eugene Bullard, America's first black pilot was part of the unit, or if he joined the regular French air corps. I do know that one African-American pilot had "all blood runs red" painted on the side of his airplane. Perhaps this is his true story that the movie is allegedly based on. If it is, then they are mis-marketing it.>> Bullard started out as an infantryman with the Foreign Legion, one of the many American volunteers who joined up in 1914 to fight for France. He was wounded in the trenches, and was unfit apparently for further ground combat, so he wrangled his way into flight training (!), and served in the Aviation Militaire. Bullard's aircraft IIRC was a SPAD VII, NOT a Nieuport II "Bebe!" His aircraft was decribed as being all-blue, and did indeed have the slogan "All Blood Runs Red!" *en Francaise* on the fuselage sides. He was NOT accepted into the Lafayette Escadrille because of the racist mentality infecting most Americans during this period of history.*** Bullard is credited with two confirmed kills, both Fokkers. There's an issue of OVER THE FRONT magazine that has a full article on Eugene Bullard. He was a rather remarkable person to say the least. IMHO the actor they chose is at least physically very close to the real Bullard in appearence (we'll see if he can act!). Bullard's abilities as a boxer and his fiery temper are also well portrayed IMHO in the preview. We'll see how accurate the film really is, however
>;D Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net ***NOTE: The same mentality that led the US Army to assign four complete units of US Army *regulars* to the French Army, as they were all-Black regiments and were therefore deemed unfit for combat service as part of the AEF! The 369th "Harlem Hellfighters" was subsequently in continuous combat for 191 days, took serious casulaties -at times argueable unnecessary!- due to their ferocious courage and a collective inwillingness to give an inche to "le boches!" The 369th won a regimental Croix de Guerre, and numerous individual awards were handed out as well, and also to the sister regiments which comprised the 157th Goybet Division of the French Army. The 369th also never lost a single man as a POW to the Germans. By any definition the 369th was an elite infantry regiment. |
BlackWidowPilot | 17 Aug 2006 10:09 a.m. PST |
<<Obviously Richtofen's or Boelke's Jastas would work, but which units should be chosen for the allies?>> Les Cigognes is a good start
French aircraft were almost as flamboyant as their German opponents, and unlike the Armee de l'Air of 1940, the Aviation Militaire was a highy professional and aggressive outfit, with some excellent aircraft (SPADs, Nieuports, Breguet XIV, etc.). Film makers could do a helluvalot worse IMHO!>;D You could follow up with several of the RFC units that contained some excellent pilots such as the RNAS unit that flew the Sopwith Triplanes; IIRC they performed very well, and had catchy names stenciled on their aircraft as well ("Black Maria," et al). Aces that could be profiled include: Albert Ball "Mickey" Mannock Eddie Rickenbacker Frank Luke (Arizona Boaster turned Arizona Ballon Buster!) Rene Paul Fonck (he'd be a character we'd all love to hate for his insufferable ego!) Charles Nungesser (brooding daredevil) Edward Guynemer (the original Revenge of The Nerd character!) Oswald Boelcke The Richtofen brothers Francesco Barracca Alexandr Kazakov So IMHO there's grist aplenty for the film maker's mill; just have to get past the money-worshipping producers
;p Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net |
BlackWidowPilot | 17 Aug 2006 10:19 a.m. PST |
FYI: upon closer inspection of the trailer I discovered that the probably flight leader of the red Fokkers is an *all-black* DR-1
maybe we'll see a little more variety after all
Well, one can hope, LOL! >;D Leland R. Erickson Metal Express metal-express.net
|
Double Ace | 17 Aug 2006 6:16 p.m. PST |
I can see it now, a double feature, and lots of WWI aerial toys in 1/144th and 1/72nd scale. Flying caps, scarves, flying boots, gloves, jackets, goggles, etc. It will put the Star Wars marketing efforts to shame
.. |
Colonel Hairy Haggis | 18 Aug 2006 1:10 a.m. PST |
No WW1 aerial combat movie has been mad to even remotely represent HISTORICAL WW1. Richthofen VS Brown had SE5a fighting Fokker Dr1's of course if you turn the sound off and watch only the stun flying it's a great movie. The Blue Max had Fokker D7's being replaced by Fokker Dr1's and most of the allied aircraft were Tiger moths. Though they did have a Pfalz D3. I got to see the Pfalz up close at a WW1 fly-in, Very neat! Hell's angles had Standard E1's standing in for British aircraft. With all the students of WW1 aerial combat around the Internet any one could have told the producers that what they were doing was WRONG. I hope someone has the foresight to make a historical movie of Americas CMH winner Frank Luke the Balloon buster. And do it right! The balloon busting alone would be great cinematic splendor! As always hoping, Colonel Hairy Haggis |
JackWhite | 18 Aug 2006 10:35 a.m. PST |
Too many movies today are about blowing things up. Plot, dialogue and accuracy or continuity all go out the window and leave one somehow empty, unfullfilled and lacking a feeling of having been entertained. JackWhite |
JackWhite | 18 Aug 2006 10:52 a.m. PST |
aecurtis "Hollywood? Hisorical subject?" This is a valid point to a degree. But it was Hollwood that made the much-praised The Blue Max, Saving Private Ryan, Platoon and any number of others. The John Wayne "B" movies of WWII weren't necessarily accurate, but they weren't laugh-out-loud non-sense, either. Sometimes I believe that Hollywood gets too much criticism for its failures, but not anywhere near enough for its successes. JackWhite |
JackWhite | 18 Aug 2006 10:56 a.m. PST |
The armed forces were still segregated until WWII, so I would doubt the authenticity of an A-A fighter pilot as part of a US Army Air Corps unit. JackWhite |
JackWhite | 18 Aug 2006 11:05 a.m. PST |
Bangorstu But the bubblegum belongs in a teen movie. It just looks like a remake of Pearl Harbor, with tri-planes and bi-planes. IMHO, it just cheapens the things those men did or makes a joke of it. Maybe that's the point. Make it look like a lark and learn the harsh reality later. JackWhite JackWhite |