"Samurai. 6 or 10mm?" Topic

Cheers,
after a lot of reading and painting (28mm) I decided I want to play some epic japanese battles. I have a really good image of how they should look and a nice ruleset that "feels" perfect (Daimyo, a free online set)
Now comes the hard part. I want BIG battles. Not 1:1 of course, but really inspiring games. I know (ok, assume) the best on their respective scales are Baccus (6mm) and Pendraken (10mm) The Pendraken figures cost around twice as Baccus (if I´m correct) and I assume they also cut numbers (and spectacle) to a half. What I want to know is if I can sacrifice that for better quality of sculpts. I don´t want crappy figures, they are samurai for Christ´s sake! They are supposed to look good! :-P

Anyway: samurai, BIG battles, two good manufacturers. What would you recommend?

Thanks!!!
Guido

Baccus! Can't go wrong with the best!

Agree, Baccus has some very nice 6mm.

In the fine TMP tradition of ignoring your criteria …

Might I suggest 15mm.
There is a good variety of figures and do the Samurai more justic. They also cost 2x again of 10 mm. TwoDragon in particular has a range of 200+ including a variety of Generals, Ronin, Ninja, Monks and misc equipment. I have lots of their figures and they are excellent.

List here but no pics.
brookhursthobbies.com

Essex and Eureka also have very nice Samurai in 15mm and there are more out there.

Guido,
I am biased as I am the rep for Baccus in the states, but Baccus samurai are some of the best out there in the smaller scales. How Peter sculpted the lace on the armor is beyond me. I would definatly say to go with 6mm, instead of 10, since your focus is on large battles and the spectacle that you want to simulate.

I have some newly painted samurai that I havent photographed yet. If you send me an email at: admin (AT) heritage-studios.com I'll take some shots and send them your way.

Steve
heritage-studios.com
NA Rep for Baccus 6mm

Don't overlook the AIM 10mm Samurai range. 24 foot or 12 mounted for $4.95 USD is pretty reasonable and they are individually cast.

Tom Dye
GFI

Eurekas 15s…the only way to go

Well, once again I have to say that 10mm will give you a perfect balance between mass and individual figure details, which is important for this period. One look at Arnstein Orten's (who is otherwise a 6mm fan I believe) 10mm Samurai web site should make the case for itself:

folk.uio.no/arnsteio/samurai

The AIM range is simply splendid, and the Pendraken and Irregular ranges can be used to fill out and add variety.

However, there's no denying the Baccus 6mm are very nice, and it will come down to "feel" for you. I would go with them before 15mm, but 15mm would make great small battle or skirmish troops. Aren't the Two Dragon figures very hard to get nowadays?

Cheers,

Christopher
10mmWorld.com

I would have to say that 10mm is the best bet. While Baccus makes incredible figures you will find that 10mm will give a nice size and detail that you won't get with 6mm. You can still have the mass effect with 10's as you do with 6's, you will also have more detail on the figures to show off their magnificent armour and wonderful flags. Having done 6mm for the Renaissance and then going to 10mm for my Medieval figures, I will never go back to 6mm again.

Just my 2 cents of course.

AIM 10mm Samurai are very nice indeed. The foot mix well with Pendraken. I would plan on using AIM and Pendraken cavalry on seperate bases though.

Baccus 6mm are truly little gems, but with 10mm you can see the individual figures better.

Much though I am a huge fan of Pete Berry's Baccus figures, I have to admit that I am going with 10mm for my own Samurai project. This could in part be due to my having accumulated a substantial pile of 10mm Samurai before Peter released his in 6mm.

Perhaps you could order a sample pack of each, paint and base them and see which you prefer?

I love the GFI 10mm Samurai.

Baccus 6mm all the way.

Doug

I am currently in your same dilemma. I have several packs of GFI 10mm Samurai and several of Baccus 6mm. They are both beautiful figures, but I am more inclined to go with 10mm, here is why:
1) Poses: The GFI have some good poses that create the impression of action.
2) Painting: The 10mm is large enough for the intricacies of the Samurai armor to be brought out. I am not so certain about the 6mm.

I have seen the Pendraken figures and they are very nice as well.

Testor's Ochre(Afrika Mustard)???

Nice to see a lot of reasoned opinion here! Makes a change from some of the exchanges we've had in the past.

Well, everyone reading this knows exactly what my reply will be, but here goes nonetheless.

Sengoku Jidai warfare was conducted on a mass scale. Truly huge armies engaging in titanic struggles. Watch a film like 'Kagemusha' to be inspired by the mass of colour and beauty of the coloured banners floating above a sea of lacqered armour. You can focus on the odd individual here and there, but always against the background of huge numbers.

This is quite simply not a wargames period in which you want to compromise. It is not about the individual, it is about the army and for that you need the good solid virtues that only 6mm can bring. Talking about trade-offs and best alternatives is doing a disservice to the great Daimyos.

If you want detail, play Seven Samurai sklrmishes with 28mm figures, but if you want to play at being the Big Man, then there is only way to go!

Cheers

Peter

PS on the subject of detail, I am quite happy to pit some of my wee little men against much larger castings. Have a look at my Samurai Command group to see what I mean.

Testor's Ochre(Afrika Mustard)???

Not my post

Argh – I've just been TMP'D….

It would probably be worth ordering a pack in each scale and decide that way. It's amazing how much detail Baccus 6mm have. I went for 10mm in the end, but that was a decision based on the terrain I already had available to me.

A real wargamer would do both….
VR
James Mattes

Putting my money where my mouth is I have ordered some Baccus Samurai (note I have lots of Baccus for other periods, just no Samurai).

I suppose James will credit me a real gamer. I am likely going to continue my 10mm project for one set of rules, and use 6mm for the other.

You could buy one pack each of the Baccus AND Pendraken, paint them up, and see which suits your painting style and looks best on the table…..

I second 10mm. Both AIM and Pendraken are great. I have seen Baccus too. They are certainly nice figures, but just a bit too small for my taste. I base my figures for Warmaster Ancients with between 25-30 infantry figures per unit. This gives me the mass effect I am looking for while preserving the visibility of the individual warriors.

Dave Crowell you are a true wargamer!. Congratulations! Send me your email and I will send you a certificate….
VR
James Mattes

Well, I have ordered some Baccus from Heritage. I have some 10mm Warmaster figures, and the longer I stare at them the more certain I am that samurai measuring almost half of that would look awesome on the table.

Now I just have to start making some scenery.

I was just wondering, why the lack of mounted sohei on the Baccus line? There was a rather interesting discussion on the Shogun and AsianWar yahoo groups lately about monk cavalry.
Maybe some conversions? (can you really convert 6mm minis?)

Thanks a lot to all of you.
Cheers,
Guido

In 15mm, you have Old Glory, Irregular, Two Dragons, Eureka, Essexs, and Falcon. All of which are perfectly useable together – which I in fact do. Why go to off scales where you have a single or maybe 2 vendors which are not compatible. Also, aside from one insanely excellent painter, does anyone else you play with have an opponent in this scale?

Samurai are an insanely difficult army to paint in any scale. Samurai are the Himalaya's of wargame figure painting. Are you sure you want to do it in a scale that many of us can't even see?

I am moving away from 10mm myself. I find that they take all the work to paint of 15mm, without the rewarding detail o the finished product. At 6mm, you are dealing with something far easier to paint; so I have some 6mm periods and some 15mm.

mikeah, sadly I´m actually a painter first and a solo gamer second. There´s just no public for wargames here in Argentina and the little there is goes to Warhammer.
Some people play historicals but they are usually old bitter guys with secret clubs or something. No twenty-something wargamers around and believe me, I´ve looked around.
On the matter of scale, I love to paint (as I said earlier) and enjoy learning techniques for different scales. I just care for opponent armies regarding scale, so going for a different scale in a determined period is not an issue.
I paint mainly 28mm and am aware of the challenge 6mm implies.
And about manufacturers: if we actually buy the scale maybe other manufacturers will start sculpting it. Look at 10mm. Who heard of it 5 years ago?

Cheers!!
Guido

"but they are usually old bitter guys with secret clubs or something. No twenty-something wargamers around and believe me, I´ve looked around."

Being an old bitter guy, I resemble this remark. Although our secret club is a bit more open, we've been looking for 20 – something year olds. Someone has to carry the heavy stuff out to the car. Your age gives away how you can see and paint these things. When you are 53 (or so), with decaying eyes and hands that shake a bit, Samurai are not easy.

'Samurai are an insanely difficult army to paint in any scale. Samurai are the Himalaya's of wargame figure painting. Are you sure you want to do it in a scale that many of us can't even see?'

Looks like the repeated message isn't getting through here! :-)

I'll try and do this in very small words and short sentences.

Painting 6mm is much, much, much much EASIER than painting big figures. This is especially true for the very complex stuff such as Samurai. You concentrate on what is important to create the visual effect required, not on the lacing of the armour or the exact way that the agemaki bow is tied.

It is the painting of these things on the bigger figures that leads to eyestrain and madness. This is avoided at 6mm. 15mm is especially tricky to paint as people will push themselves to '28mm quality' paint job on 15mm figures.

It's obvious that you've never actually tried to work with small scale stuff, so until you've done so you can't possibly make a proper judgement. Can I suggest that you follow this link link

There you'll find the experiences of a number of people who were challenged to have a go at painting the wee chaps. You'll find out exactly how impossible a task they found it.

Yup, 6mm can be a challenge, but there are an awful lot of people taking that challenge up and enjoying the experience. Why not broaden your own horizons and have a go instead of sitting on the sidelines and sniping away at those who choose to try something new?

Cheers

Peter

I know I'm a little late to post. I myself am having trouble deciding what scale to choose. I own a few 10mm (pendraken) and 6mm (baccus). And both are beautiful. I'm leaning more towards 10mm beacause I can't find models for ancient china and hebrew enemies of rome. Maybe baccus would do some three kingdoms chinese minis in the future. =)

I would back that up: Three Kingdoms China in 6mm, yes please!

I know he's got a horse in this race, but I can attest to Peter's comments about painting 6mm. My preference is a white undercoat, basecoat and then an ink wash, and then do each of the details. It's really good for painting morale because you can chew through a whole base of 6mms in an evening, as opposed to nibbling at part of a unit of 28mms.

I would suggest Peter Pigs stuff for 15mm but for the mass effect it's 6mm
Spray them all black in their thousands -drybrush them in some colour to pick out the detail and put on a blob for a face -maybe a touch of colour for the trouser (suits you…):)
Probably worth mentioning that I've never painted any 6mm figs but that's how I'd do it.

For mass effect 6mm, simples.

On the painting front Mashrewba has got it spot on, the focus if on the unit and overall effect and not whether you have the Mon painted on each shoulder.

6mm are suprisingly easy to paint to get a decent effect and I echo the sentiment that it is good for your morale to get a unit painted to a wargaming standard within an hour or so's painting. Its all in the techniques you employ.

I paint 6mm and it's not that hard to get a good effect quickly by actually painting the guys, rather than treating them the way that mashrewba suggests.

You may get an impression from a distance that way, but these are not little blobs of metal, they have detail and a little bit of extra effort has a great effect on the way they look and how you will feel about them.

Guido, in my experience 6mm are too brittle and have too little detail. Go 10mm Brother.