"Midnight's Zombie Miniatures Rules" Topic

Hi all,
Like a lot of people out there I have dabbled over the years with producing my own miniatures rules. There's been bits I've liked from some sets and bits I've thought were pointless.
Over the last few weeks I've been really knuckling down to do my own rules ( not just a conversion of another set).
I've got the actual mechanics pretty much sorted and I am working on some balancing issues ( points system).
The idea is to make a modern skirmish system with it's heart in horror but it can be used in any modern / urban situation.
Basically each player will build a small gang with one "Major Player" and several "Extras". They can be pitted against each other or can work together against a common threat ( Zombies etc) or BOTH!
I don't want a gamesmaster as such and so I am working on rules to make the common threat element automated without a silly number of tables.
The main thing is that it is going to be plot driven rather than the "last one standing." I'm working out some rules for "Innocents" and how various factions could benefit from saving them/ using them . Example: A real bad dude player could use an innocent as a "Shield" but would receive no further help from them. A "Good" player may find that their character awakens after being KO'd to find the innocent they've just saved standing over them , fending off an undead hoard!
I'm in the process of playtesting a the moment and I am trying to iron out the balance issues.
I'm looking at doing a "lite" version to see if anyone's interested.

Regards
PM

We are about to publish something that sounds just like that. Great minds think alike??
Take a look at:

occultwars.com

… and Two Hour Wargames have published something just like that :-)
Check out All Things Zombie, although I suspect you already have :-)

…and I am still procrastinating about doing my set of rules which are similar. But ya still a great f—-ing painter in my book!

Kudos Pappa! I'll take a peek at them if you like and when you're ready. Sounds pretty good!

I wouldnt mind a look see

Karl

I'd love to have a look-see, but . . . I don't tend to care for hero/cannon fodder configurations. I like that every character is, well, a character, worthy of playing. It's certainly okay that some characters have more skills, special abilities, equipment, etc. But if the "red shirts" are really just there to die so the hero can survive then these rules are not for me.

Steve

@Jiraiya: No, he said automated "without a silly number of tables."

Good point Kwai . . . I too have an issue with all those tables in ATZ. Haven't played a single game yet due to the jumble of tables. : (

Hey Pappa – was working on some way to "automate" things myself (though I was rather thinking of a balanced way to "distribute" orders to give to the "monsters" among players, in a non-cooperative setting) ; I would be curious to have a look at the ideas you have.

Cheers

I'd like to look at any ideas you have. I too found ATZ overwhelming. I'm usually pretty good with rules but reading ATZ and putting it to practice with my gaming group looks too painful.

Seems a bit odd – ATZ has been simple for our club to pick up and hasn't got a 'silly number of tables' to make the auto zombies work at all – in fact they don't use any of the reaction tables, they move towards defined noise or visual within 12" – they charge in within 6", they amble along at 6" and move in a random direction when they reach an obstacle (dice roll 1-3 left 4-6 right) in fact the only rolls you need to do is where the new ones appear from after you have attracted them. In fact not a chart to be seen for the zombies to act – so don't really know what people are on about to be honest.

Seems a bit odd to me too. I run games at conventions using All Things Zombie with as many as 14 new players. Everyone runs the zombies attacking their human figures, and all from 9 years of age up can handle it by themselves after 3 turns.

What tables? Like all rule sets, they have to be actually played to be understood. Try giving a newbie DBA to read without figures on the table.

I think that the tables that you're refering to are the reaction tables for the PCs. As stated above, the zombies don't use tables at all. ATZ is damn easy, and I too have run games with a bunch of players, including a Vietnam zombie game. I hate to sound like a jerk, but a friend even taught his 12 year old autistic brother to play (which wasn't a good move considereing the nightmares he later had…). Play it a few times, I think you'd actually like it.

Write up your rules Papa, I'd really like to read them. I think that there is always room for more rule sets, especially interesting ones.

(Has anyone ever noticed that genres come in waves, like baseball movies?)

ATZ IS " TOO OVERWHELMING" TO INTRODUCE A GAMING GROUP TO?

PLAYER ISSUES WITH "ALL OF THOSE TABLES IN ATZ"?

HMMMMMmmmmmmmmmm. . . . . . .

this seems very odd to me, too. my own observations/participation in an ATZ games indicate an average time for a NEWBIE player to pick up the rules during the course of their first gaming experience with ATZ does seem to be 3 or 4 turns for all age and experience groups of gamers.

LOL! play the game, and i think you will discover what thousands of other gamers (w/ various gaming experiences) from around the world have discovered: ATZ, like all THWGs, bring FUN back to tabletop gaming!

y'all DO remember FUN gaming, don't y'all?

TRY IT: Y'ALL WILL LIKE IT !

DAWGIE <:O)

I love people that can tell you about a game wihtout even reading or playing it…

Page 27 under the "All Things Zombie" section

"Zombies do not have to take ANY Reaction tests."

Ed

Wow! I say that I'm trying to make up my own system and that I want one without a "silly number of tables" and I end up causing a slinging match!
It wasn't my intention to flash people up about the pros and cons of other systems, just to make one without referring to tables constantly.
I have got ATZ ( and a fine game it is)and it was this game that got me into horror gaming in the first place ( it's your fault!!!). The actual "Tables" you need for a zombie slugfest are minimal , the others often not required but covering just about every eventuality ( some feat in itself!).
It's a personal thing that "I" don't like tables. They are a bit of a necessity especially if you're dealing with a game which can be played solo! Even GW include them in their games.
I'm looking at minimal book keeping ( possibly stat cards with relevant information) without the need to pick up the rulebook all the time.
Any how, different gamers have got different tastes. Some enjoy extremely complex systems which take 1/2 hour to run one combat turn ( Anyone remember the Living Steel RPG?)whilst others prefer quick and dirty ( I roll, you die!)
I'm still play testing at the moment ( damned balance issues!!!) and when I've got something usable I will put together a "lite" version.
Thanks for all of your comments.
Regards
PM

I think ATZ is different in its concept and as such I personally find it a bit hard to get my head around. However when I have someone doing the tables for me (Sebastian Rogers for example) the rules work well.

I agree it is ideal for Solo or indeed pickup multiple games

I understood your desire perfectly Papa, and I'd agree with you, probably across the board. I don't mind tables during the force creation or composition process (if you've got to randomly determine terrain, mission objectives, forces, morale, etc). All that is pre-game and I'm cool with it.

But once the game gets underway, I want everything to fit on one page (okay, it can be double-sided). A combat results table, a movement table, a couple of modifications tables (for terrain and such), and depending on the game a table or two for special stuff (could be artillery ranges, or scatter, or special rules for certain items like flames burning out of control, or dealing with vehicles, etc).

All on one page. If I've gotta pick up four or five pages of stuff to find the right table, it's more involved than I'd care to play. Not saying the game isn't wonderful, it's just not at my desired level of ease-of-play.

My reference above to the tables in ATZ is a simple statement of fact from my perspective. I picked up ATZ recently because I enjoyed their NUTS! game and wanted to see what they did for zombies.

ATZ is 63 pages, counting front and back covers, and a title sheet inside the cover, and 2 full pages of art, so that leaves 58 pages of stuff.

Of 58 pages:
Pages 2-41 are the rules, so 40 pages.
Pages 42-45 are a sample game, so 3 pages.
Pages 48-52 are tables, so 5 pages.

There are about 36 tables on those five pages.

Pages 53-56 are a sample of how the Reaction System works.
Pages 59-63 are "Mo Better" tables.

There are about 36 tables on those 5 pages.

I'm not an active member of the Yahoo group, but I did run across something that explains the Mo Better tables are an option replacement for the original tables. I wish this had been explained in the rules themselves though. Not everyone heads off to Yahoo land and joins up and reads lots of posts to find out this stuff. I don't know if they replace the core tables and make it easier to play, or more detailed. Haven't gone back to the group to check.

However, back to my point. The basic rules are 40 pages long, and there are 36 or so tables to play the game, which seems a bit excessive. Glancing at the titles for some of the tables, my first impression – which could certainly be wrong – is that I need to refer to tables a LOT while playing. Perhaps once I've dived in and given it a shot, it will turn out that most of it is intuitive and the game is really easy to play.

But my first impression was that I had LOTS of tables to contend with, which is not normally my cup of tea.

I would still very much like to give it a shot, but I suspect this is one game that is easier to learn if I can play with somebody who already knows it. Starting from scratch, playing solo, this one may be hard to handle.

Again, those are initial impressions.

PM, Seattle Gamer – Right on both counts and great stuff. No offense taken and none intended.

When playing solo you need to generate alot of "what if?" tables that really don't get used alot.

I understand where you both of you are coming from and Seattle Gamer, you're right, it can look imposing. But in reality the three last pages of tables are rarely used and could have been slipped into the body of the rules as you almost never refer to them.

Every table in the book is back there, but you won't use very many, maybe six and of those two regularly. Also, after about three turns what you need to know you've memorized especailly for shooting etc.

But again, no offense taken or intended.
Just game man! :)

Ed

Hey,
Seattle Gamer. Where are you? The playtesters for ATZ all live just north of Everett, they travel, and I'm sure would love to help.
Email me

ed@twohourwargames.com and I can hook you up with them.

PM – If you have any questions or need any help with your game let me know.

We play ATZ with one sheet and rarely look at that after 3 games or so – they are all easy to remember and intuitive. There are a lot of charts for stuff like looting and whats in buildings for if you are playing without a scenario or a throw together game for fun but you rarely use them.

RJ

A good point Jiraiya and if you check out the THW site the Mo etta (I think) tables make it a lot easier to play a game. I even beat Sebastian Rogers on the look up tables who is our club Guru on the subject ;0)

"Seattle Gamer"-Terrain/Mission Objectives /scenario generation tables I would go with that. The information that wouldn't be on a "Stat" card I may put on a crib sheet for reference. Once the game's underway I want minimal refferal. This may be necessary for a while until you've got "Used" to the rules ( this is like many systems).

"Ed"- Many thanks for the offer of help.This isn't something i've thought of doing seriously before ( most gamers have house rules for existing systems)and any pointers from those "In the business" is greatly appreciated.
Regards
PM

Anytime PM

Wow, this was an iteresting thread to read. Glad it ended up on a great note. :-)

Once again Ed, you impress me.

dafrca

I have to say, some guys in my group found THW's ATZ complex. At the end of the day, I think I just had to beat into them them that all the tables where just a pass 0, 1 or 2 dice system.

Some of the in game encounter stuff, is complex too, but can be distilled down for any specific encounter to a few very simple checks.

Now getting those check, takes a bit of cross referancing, to get the numbers. So trying to use the encounter tables on the fly is awkward. The best solution, I think is just have your buildings figured out (before the game, or just after setting up), by type and zone, and just write those numbers down. Then that becomes trivial too.

--Tom

Looks like everybody has the same idea at the same time…

I'm still working on my set of tabletop skirmish rules, originally developed because I wanted a Superhero game, but hated Heroclix. Damn thing keeps evolving though…lol

I've used the same set of rules to successfully run an armed survivors vs zombies escape from the mall game and a battle in a village between Dwarves and Ratkin (the survivors and the dwarves won). Seems to work okay for ALL types of settings, although having my super-nazis get trashed by clowns was a bit of a downer…lol