"Modern British squad/section TO&E??" Topic

While we are on the modern armies thing just for future reference :-) what is the current makeup of a British section – say a Warrior dismount? I know we have the Minimi now to replace the LSW. Is the LSW still issued? If so how many per squad? Is the GPMG still issued at platoon or company level? I assume the squads don't carry them anymore.

I thought the Minimi had replaced an SA80, so the formation was now 2 SA80, 1 LSW and 1 Minimi (SAW). Officially the GPMG was withdrawn some time ago, but they all mysteriously reappeared :-) Don't know if they were re-introduced or phased out after.

OK,

section composition in a Mech unit:

1 Warrior with Driver and gunner, section leader doubles as tank commander (which is why it can carry a full 8 men squad while only having seating for 7 pessangers)
1 Section commander armed with SA-80A2 (reworked by H&K)
1 Ass Sec. CO armed like the commander
2 Grenadiers with SA-80A2 and UGL´s, at times these will swap weapons with the section commander
2 Machine Gunners with either Minimi or SA-80 LSW depending on the refitting status of the unit. Most of the time a unit has either but not both
2 riflemen armed with SA-80 A2. One of these should have a LAW-80, too. (Not to be confused with the poor US namesakes, these can take out MBT´s)

The GPMG´s are used with specialised MG sections or platoons, nut not on Section level. Although the command section can at times be accompained by a MG "squad".

Cheers,

Burkhard
dhc-wargames.de

Similar to what Burkhard said….

Each fireteam is:
NCO w. SA80
OR w. SA80
OR w. SA80 and 40mm UGL
OR w. SAW

The SAW is now usually an M249 Minimi; some units seem to be retaining the LSW as well, although it's intended as a replacement. (While I haven't seen anything recently, footage of the Black Watch's Iraq tour seemed to show one team in each squad having an LSW and the other an M249.)

The platoon is 3 sections, each of two fireteams, plus a platoon HQ of Lieutenant, Sergeant, Radio Op, and a 51mm Mortar Man. The latter is in the process of being phased out; Warrior units in particular are unlikely to have it now.

In addition, non-Warrior units have an MG section of a corporal and 2x 2-man light role GPMG teams.

Dom.

PS – Geoff, they were re-introduced; light role units now have a small fourth fire support section, as their firepower was at last recognised as being somewhat deficient. They'd been retained as a battalion asset anyway, but the introduction of the MG section has put them back into the infantry platoons.

Dom.

"2 Machine Gunners with either Minimi or SA-80 LSW depending on the refitting status of the unit. Most of the time a unit has either but not both"

Thanks. So what will happen to the redundant LSW's? I read somewhere (can't find it now!) a while ago that 1 would be retained by sections as a longer ranged/more accurate rifle for a pseudo section sniper role. Is that correct?

Light role units now have a small fourth fire support section

So, 3 sections in the Warrior (plus an HQ?) or 4 sections (fire support being the fourth) in a light role unit? Presumably relying on the Warrior's gun to act as fire support in Warrior based units.
Sounds much like the US 3 sections plus an MG section.

Officially the LSW drops off of the TO&E entirely, presumably getting stowed away in the armoury for a rainy day. In practice at least some units (especially leg troops) do seem to be retaining it as a marksman's weapon, and ditching an SA80 instead.

So what will happen to the redundant LSW's
Why? You after a couple Fred? :-D

Geoff; yep, I'm sure that's where they got the idea from. I think the lack of a 4th section in mechanised units is a combination of the Warriors meaning heavy firepower on tap, and them not having enough room for another section anyway. I believe Saxon equipped units *do* have the MG section, as there're enough seats in the platoon commander's vehicle to bundle them in as well….

Dom.

"In addition, non-Warrior units have an MG section of a corporal and 2x 2-man light role GPMG teams."

Presumably the Warriors provide enough firepower that this isn't needed! I assume the Warrior platoon is 4 Warriors with the 3 sections having 1 each and the platoon HQ the other. Does this one have any additional comms?

So, 3 Warriors to a platoon with the 4 man Platoon HQ being stuffed in any available locker?

Lol. Fred and I thinking at the same time :-)

That's a bit like the Bradleys or Strykers appear to be organised now Fred, 4 Bradleys holding 3 sections (M4/16, M4/16/203, M249) and PHQ or 4 Strykers holding 3 sections plus an MG section.

Did I just compare the Saxon to a Stryker??

Fred's right; 4 Warriors – the Warrior only has seats for 7 troops, with the section leader riding as vehicle commander. PHQ has to have it's own track, as there aren't any spare seats. I don't know abou extra comms gear, though….

Dom.

Saxon and Stryker have a lot in common. Well, they both begin with an S and end with an RPG….

…first the Maus comment, now this one…

Very good :-)

Out of couriosity, I wonder if the same is starting to hold true for other nations, eg Germans with the Marder/Fuchs combination, and French with VAB/AMX10P

The Plt. CO´s Warrior has a different set up (also has different rear doors), but from what I know it can carry 6 passangers.

The German Marder holds 6 Infantry. The samlest tactical unit is a 12 men Gruppe which means two Marders per Gruppe.
The Fuchs is not used in an APC role.

Cheers,

Burkhard
dhc-wargames.de

Oh, has the Fuchs been phased out of APC usage then? Must admit I'm surprised at that one. Do you know what they've replaced it with? (I seem to recall jager battalions using it, along with the infantry elements of recce battalions?)

Dom.

"Saxon and Stryker have a lot in common. Well, they both begin with an S and end with an RPG…."

Actually the Striker with grill armour has quite a good record vs RPG's. However it does make them even more top heavy.

AFAIKT the LSW is NOT going out of service. From what I understood it is now taking up the role of the Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR), which is quite fitting as the LSW was known for it's accuracy if not it's rate of fire.

I believe these will be issued at squad level with one LSW and one Minimi per squad.

Guy

Dom,

the Fuchs is used as an NBC detection tank, transport (supplies) tank, armoured ambulance and in a multitude of specialised roles. But use as APC has virtually ceased.
AFAIK some Gebrigsjäger (mountain infantry) use it in a kind of APC role, but more as a vehicle to ferry them to their designations and not int a combat zone.

The Jäger that you speak off were disbanded in the late 90´s as outdated and since they seemed to contain and draw neo-Nazis. The people with those attitudes were fired back then, the others went to other units.
Right now there is a Jägerregiment once more, but they are structured like an airmobile unit with choppers. Right now it is unclear if they will be expanded or if the Regiment will become a Panzergrenadierunit in the future.

The Fuchs never really saw use as an APC. Where the Marder IFV was unavailable the M113 was used, but only a few more common was the use of trucks and Unimogs. Events in Afghanistan have shown that these were too prone to roadside bombs, suicide bombers and mines (although that is a lesson from the Balkans). So they are being replaced by heavyly armoured versions like the Mungo (based on the Unimog and airmobile) and Duro (based on an Iveco Truck chasis).
Right now there is work on a new vehicle called the Boxer in conjunction with the Netherlands (like the Fennek) after the UK and France left the project. This will be be an 8 wheel 26t APC. It is expected to enter servce late in 2008.

The interesting thing about both the Boxer and Duro is that their rear compartments are containers, meaning they can be configured for vastly different missions within minutes.

Cheers,

Burkhard
dhc-wargames.de

P.S.: It is really worht looking into the current German Army… there is such a host of new weapons and vehicles being introduced that one can really be surprised. And most of it is way advanced. I would just hope that some of the companies that do vehicle models would pick them up!

It's the whole host of them that is the problem – just so many to do!

Hi all,

A four man fire team is made up of 3 x SA80A2, one with UGL usually carried by section commander or section 2/ic,then you have either 1x SAW or 1 x LSW, some section commanders like the LSW because over 800m it is very acurate a bit like the old LMG too accruate for its own good.

The UGL will slowly replace the 51mm mortar and Rifle Gren general service.

UGL fires a 40mm rnd, that at the mo only fires HE, smoke and Illum.

Dont joke about the US Striker there was talk of buying it as a stop gap, but give it a few months and you will see the upgraded racing snake of a 432 !!

Cheers

FoW

Now I have heard that the updated FV432 is supposed to be surprisingly quick…

The new 432 has a updated engine and transmission, but they havent done anything with the old suspension, so they have fitted a crew seatbelts in the rear, also they are replacing the old L37 GPMG with a 50 cal (Nice).

The CVRT's are having grill armour put on them as well,in trials they stopped RPG rnds, as long as the crew didnt use the grills as extra stowage for their gonk bag

hi guys the minimi is only being issued to units like the paras ,marines and other elite units ..

Thomas – that was just the initial issue – light role units got the Minimi first, but it's replacing the LSW across the board. Paras and marines just got priority as they have less support weapons to fall back on.

Dom.

Any and all units that are operational ie Iraq or Afganistan are issued with the minimi, yes some of the more Gucci units have it permantley, but other non teeth arm units also get it issued as well.

FoW

"The new 432 has a updated engine and transmission, but they havent done anything with the old suspension, so they have fitted a crew seatbelts in the rear, also they are replacing the old L37 GPMG with a 50 cal (Nice)."

What was the old suspension? Torsion bar? Should give a reasonable ride if it is. The 50 cal will be a nice addition agreed. Whatever it is going to be streets ahead of the Saxon! :-)

Sorry, forgot earlier – Burkhard, thanks very much for the info – I've not really looked at the German army for a few years now, although I still have a half-assembled and painted panzergrenadier kompanie to finish one day – organised and uniformed for late 80s what ifs….

Dom.

Yes it has retained the torsion bar suspension, I remember driving over soltau, head butting the roof and getting scalded by the bv on the back door, they have upgraded half of the vehicle why stop with he suspension?, the upgraded 432 is fast !, I saw it on trials at Bovvy and it can move, 432 GTI.

Totally agree with comments about saxon it sucks !!! worse bit of kit ever

FoW

From Janes this week – the Saxons are getting the heave ho in short order – probably were never intended to be used where they are now.

NZ Army looked hard at modernising our M113 fleet – very good value for money with lots of "after market accessories" for steering, transmissions etc and doable in NZ – many years ago the workshop I worked in refurbished our M113 fleet – surprisingly straight forward process in any well equipted heavy machinery workshop but it still costs money. Our decision was likely to get away from tracks to lower running costs overall – from the 8 x 8 IFV/APC prototypes on over right now this may be a global trend.

Likewise putting an actual machine gun back into fire teams (the Minimi/M249/C9 is much heavier/solid piece of kit than the LSW or other "heavy barrelled" versions of assault rifles with the barrel change facility requisite for the role) is wide spread. The heavier mgs are sneaking back in as well – in Timor the GPMGs suddenly appeared at section level at least in the static areas – hitting power is never far from the mind of an infantryman but the ammunition for these 7.62 x 51 weapons is a drawback if it has to be manpacked any distance. Amazing difference in hitting power when comparing bullet strikes against buildings and thick vegetation, the GPMG just demolishes brick walls row by row.
Grenade launcher is standard now as well – credited in NZ Army with saving the rest of Pvt Manning's team (along with the skill & guts of the guys) during that ambush by Timorese militia.

cheers

hey gunnerkiwi
not to sidetrack the thread to much but you know what new zealand sections (would) do for for anti-armour?
cheers

I think this is a trend seen all over NATO. A few years back the M60 was virtually dropped from the inventory in favour of the SAW and thoughts about getting an LMG version of the M16. Then a few year back we saw them take up the GPMG (M240) and now the introduction of the MK48.

It has been much the same here in Germany. The German army dropped the MG3 from the infantry inventroy to replace it with the MG 36 (G36 with longer, heavier barrel and bipod). The only units that were happy to take the MG36 were the Fallschirmjäger since it was better for para drops. All the other units tried to hold on to theirs on a Gruppen (12 men tactical unit) basis and when the brass stopped that the units created support groups that could retain the MG3. Over the last year or so the MG36 has been dropped from the inventory to be replaced by the H&K MG4 (essentially a SAW).

Cheers,

Burkhard
dhc-wargames.de

P.S. @ Dom: Happy to answer your questions!

And now an important question – does anybody know of any manufacturers that are producing modern Brits with minimis & the SA80/UGL combo in 28mm or 15mm for that matter?

Hi Oblivion – NZ AT capability at section level (2 x fire teams like pretty much every where else in western armies)

Pray for rain – still have M72 66mm LAW as section AT weapon . Just in process (Janes report July 06) of taking Javelin ATGW into service but from doctrine (and guessing from the #24 launchers) these will likely replace the 106mm M40 recoiless rifles in the Battalion support companies AT platoon. We signed the UN mine banning whatever and don't use AT mines.

Back on the MG thread the problem with the heavy barrel version of whatever the standard assault rifle is the inability to put rounds out to the level a proper MG does. The MG (SAW/M249/Minimi or GPMG bigger brothers)has a much heavier receiver/breach in terms of the actual metal plus the barrel comes off for a quick change – usually around the 250 rounds fired mark. At that time the heavy assault rifle barrel will look like a banana.

cheers

Tonic,

both Devil Dog Designs and TAG carry British troops in 28mm that match the current looks.

That being said… they fail to have the UGL. Not sure why I mentioned it to Richard Ansell (TAG) when he was sculpting them but still the go without. I guess it is the fact that you do not see them too often and when you see them they are hard to spot due to the small size of the UGL and the bull pub design of the SA-80. So I guess they did not believe that this TO&E was actually being used IRL.

Cheers,

Burkhard
dhc-wargames.de

The "New" 432 is going to be called the "Bulldog" variant,500 of which should be ready by the end of the year, with another 400 waiting in the wings, this bulldog is going to be used out in Iraq/afganistan as a non ? threating vehicle with its .50 cal, lifting the burden on the warrior apc, I surpose its going to take over from the snatch.

watch this space.
FoW

Burkhard

Thanks fella!

Skimming through a copy of the Sun yesterday, they had an article on a British sniper which caught my eye. Ignoring the jingoism of how he is a hero for shooting so many people single handed (?!? He's a sniper…?) there was an interesting comment that (allegedly) the British Army are now in the process of forming 'Sniper Platoons'. Apparently each of the 38 infantry battalions should have an 18 man sniper platoon by 2008.

Now, if I've got my maths right… platoon, company, battalion… that's not much more than a couple of men per company, is it? Surely not much more (or even less) than they have now?

Do British sections/platoons/companies already have a nominated marksman or sniper?

From what I can remember 14 Long range rifles (LRR) have been issued on the basis of 14 per battlion, so you would have the shooter and his spotter, but I would think the snipers would stay together as a dedecated platoon, it would make sense.

But since when has the army done anything that makes sense.

Cheers
Bitter and Twisted FoW

Geoff – 18 per battalion is quite a lot of snipers…. Equivalent to 2 per rifle platoon, or 6 per company. At present snipers don't seem to have an established slot in the British TO&E – we certainly have them, but they just don't seem to appear in the organisation tables. Other European armies commonly have them at platoon level, or even pseudo-snipers at section level (not sure if they have an equivalent now, but the Germans had a designated marksman with G3-SG1 at section level for quite a few years.) In practice some British units seem to be adopting this *as well* using the cast-off LSWs, in addition to "proper" snipers.

Cheers,
Dom.

PS – FoW I'd have thought having the snipers operating quasi-autonomously would make sense; a sniper platoon as a combat unit rather than an administrative one would strike me as one hell of a waste of resources….

I thought that training/bringing snipers together would make sense, somewhat like having the anti tank platoon or mortar platoon, they would be a battlion asset and deployed to rifle companies as and when required.
they would be left alone to do their collective trg well away from the niff naff and triv of the rifle company would throw at them, from personnel experience, we had snipers in our company who because of other trg spent little or no time on the ranges.
they brought this lack of trg to the powers that be, who were not intrested until were warned off for operations, then ALL the battlion snipers were brought together to bring there skills up to speed, this was back in the early 90's, hopefully things have changed, I know on telic 1 our sniper was one rnd one kill, but again this was collective trg prior to deployment, just think what they could do if it was a dedecated sniper platoon.

Cheers
FoW

Yes, agreed that pooling snipers as a unit for administration and training makes sense; I just have visions of some bright spark deploying them all in a row for combat…. ;-) That might be effective in terms of pure firepower, but might be missing the point with regards to stealth and suchlike….

Dom.

just think what they could do if it was a dedicated sniper platoon.

Knowing the accountant's way of reckoning, they would count the number of snipers, number of bullets fired and record that as a precise record of kills attained…

18 per battalion is quite a lot of snipers…. Equivalent to 2 per rifle platoon, or 6 per company

How do the numbers work out now then? Roughly how many men per platoon/company/battalion, and companies per battalion?

Including vehicle crews where appropriate, light role 33 men per platoon, Saxon 37 (I think; might be 41), Warrior 36. All have 3 platoons per company plus a small company HQ of about 15 men, with 3 companies plus the support company per battalion.

Dom.

Try this link;
link

Cheers

Fow

Anyone got photo of the new fv432??