"WHAT IF: There Had Been No KT Asteroid?" Topic

OK. So, KT or NOT, if the dinosaurs had not disappeared . . .

In your opinion, how would evolution have continued? What direction(s) would it have taken? What would be living on this planet today? Were mammals destined to rule, no matter what?

What sentients could have developed?

CC

I would love to be an intelligent tricerotops. That was always my favourite dinosaur. I'd use my horns to move balls on my abacus and to act as a rest for binoculars/telescope to observe the heavens.

And when someone kept wanting to have those Tiger, er, Tyrannosaurus tanks and SS duckbills, well, I'd accidentally knick his stupid models off the table with my beak…

This is what would be around today:
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LOL

CC

Wasn't that the premise for a Star Trek Voyager episode ("Distant Origin" about a race called the "Voth"?
Who knows? Did some actually watch that treacle?

The Sun is an active electrical Glow discharge and the universe is awash in charges Plasma. Modern scientist ignore or dismiss the idea of an electrically charged universe and thus planets are fixed in their current positions. However our ancestors spoke of Venus and other planets as moving objects. The Electrical universe is active and in motion.

The earth is neutral in charge to itself and that is all that matters to us here. It may or may not have a different charge than another planet but it would have have to be incredibly different to arc across all that empty space.
But the early solar system was filled with plenty of gas ions, dust and large and small bodies. Enough that substantial charge difference in any local area could be canceled out through arcing. So everything in the solar system may have begun with about the same charge. Bombardment from ions might have altered the charge somewhat over time. Still excess charge could be discharged into space.

I think your question is a good one, but it implies that evolution progresses. It does not. We are surrounded by life forms that had no reason to evolve, as everything was just fine, thank you very much. If climate and habitat change, then the new senario sets up different conditions for exploitation. Intelligence is a radical factor, and apparently, a rare one. Even after many years of research, we have not been able to "crack" the code to do more than basic comunication with other spieces like Dolphin and the higher primates. It looks to me like these subject animals are responding to stimulation and behaving in ways we are directing them toward. No, not just training, but an influence of modivation. Chimps are happy to go through life without learning sign language, but are willing to work for treats.(Hmmm, me too) Dolphins just seem to be natures' "party animal", and will do almost anything for kicks.

I still think that squids and their kind were as likley a candidate as any for the brain prize, given the right situation. I don't see how the making and controling of fire would be of any consequence in their world. We might find they are more intellegent than we are right now and are just waiting for the ice to melt before invading New York.

Farstar, there were many dinosaurs that lived in cold climates; Some dinosaurs in fact had hairy pelts, particularly those found in the 1980s in South Africa, which was sub-arctic in nature at the time.

The best speculation on what saurian evolution would have done without the Big Cosmic Thursday of the deepening oceans, the KT strike and various other changes is the Dougal Dixon book "The New Dinosaurs" in which he shows that the saurinas could well have adapted in ways that would have led to a very odd but workable fauna on Earth. The primary adaptations the saurians would have needed, he points out, would have been to the new expanding grasslands, and he posits that hypsilophodonts and hadrosaurs with their teeth would have been able to eclipse the sauropods in that niche. Even the pterosaurs, he surmises, would have been able to make some interesting adaptations to the chnaging world.

He does not overly speculate on intelligence arising in dinosaurs, being of the "Four Legs Good" school of ecology; But the book includes the possibility of some very smart creatures that may indeed get there if the drives are right.

I will end by pointing out that mammals, saurians and rynchocephalians evolved at about the same time, and it was only by chance that the latter died out, allowing the saurians to eclipse the mammal ancestors for a hundred million years or so – Though some very interesting mammals lived alongside the dinosaurs and their ilk – So the mammals could have arisen years before.

Grenadier1 said [Stronty girl Thats what I ment by "ONLY dinosaurs" =Killed off completly I ment species that were dominate and flourished were the ones who were completly wiped out. ]

Dinosaurs weren't ONE species though – they were lots and lots of species. As were the mammals, the crocodiles, the ammonites etc.

ALL the species that were around before the KT event were flourishing. If they weren't flourishing, then they were on the way to extinction anyway. So even if there had been no asteroid, no flood basalt eruptions (Deccan Traps), no climate change etc, then non-flourishing species would have popped their clogs. You don't have to be big and impressive to be "flourishing".

And "dominate" is a very human biased term, linked to what looks big and impressive. Dinosaurs were the biggest land animals of the time. Mammals are the biggest land animals now. But it is not the giants, but the small scuttling things like termites and mice and bees that truly dominate most ecosystems and keep 'em ticking over. There are, for instance, more wood mice than people in the UK. That puts all the bigger animals like deer to shame.

Someone else whose name I've forgotten: The theory of climate change through alternations in the Earth's orbit (ellipical to circular shape), degree of axial tilt, and amount of axial wobble is called the Milankovich Cycle or Milankovich-Croll cycle.

Cacique and all: here're link to the Harry Harrison books on wikipedia
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OK so I have not been giving my responses enough attention here. I am not communicating my thoughts clearly enough.

I said I do not think that a KT event killed off the just Dinosaurs because other species survived.

So you come back and say it killed off more than just Dinosaurs.

I said well I ment more than just Dinosaurs I ment the dominate species.

Well that depends on what you mena by dominate.

So lets clear this up Dominate is not numbers as you said there are tons of insects and small mammals. So lets define it as top of the food chain. It goes without saying that there has to be tons of food animals for the larger dominate animals to eat. So the dinosaurs and some other animals are at the top or near the top of the food chain.

So put aside my beliefs about electrical interaction with planetary bodies. If a large KT event happened would not the lower order food animals be the most susceptable to the event? So the larger animals run out of food and then die off? But we have the oposite reaction. The larger animals die off and the lower order animals rise up to take their place. The small mammals grows larger and larger due to the loss of preasure from the dominate Dinosaurs until they become the mega fauna. Which themselves die off.

I think this leads to only one conclusion that there is some other mechanism at work and not the massive impact of world killer comets or asteroids.

There are, for instance, more wood mice than people in the UK. That puts all the bigger animals like deer to shame. One way to count success is with individuals another is total mass of the species. And that would go to the people of the UK. Though I think on the entire earth the #1 mass is termites.

Well, I'm betting this thread wouldn't have existed.

Well CC, you did try and get the thred back on-topic. I think we are still hashing around the edge of the big issue: What would have come next. Dinosaurs, how I lov'em, didn't bother to evolve higher intellegence other than the very clever bird. They didn't need it. Mammals did need it as an edge, but primates that have walked semi-upright for a very long time have not written any books, so far as I know. Nix to the "need hands free" as the prime mover. Did dolphins develope the brain power before or after re-emerging into the ocean?

I know that there were various types of hominids living side by side in the distant past. But those sentients were still hominids.

However, if dinosaurs had not disappeared (again, for whatever reason), could there have evolved TWO rival sentient species (one reptilian and one mammalian), as Harry Harrison implies in the "Eden" series?

CC

"if dinosaurs had not disappeared (again, for whatever reason), could there have evolved TWO rival sentient species (one reptilian and one mammalian), as Harry Harrison implies in the "Eden" series?"

Hmm. Probably *some* die-off would have been necessary, as the saurian age didn't see mammals large enough to achieve intelligence as we currently understand it. The ecological niches that allowed for that size were all very efficiently filled by creatures that had been there for millions of years, and it took major upheaval to clear those niches so the survivors could evolve to fill them again.

Assuming such a die-off occured in a limited part of the Saurian Earth that was not readily re-populable by Saurians, instead of the whole planet, you could conceivably have the Saurians continue to dominate their part of the world and possibly evolve to sentience, while the mammals took over the isolated area the Saurians had been cleared from. Without something keeping them seperate, however, whichever race reached "tool-use and world travel" first would probably have suppressed the later race.

GRENADIER1 said [If a large KT event happened would not the lower order food animals be the most susceptable to the event? ]

Why should they be?

Apart from the most basic reasoning – if all the plants die, then all the herbivores die. If all the herbivores die then all the carnivores die. But that effects the whole food chain.

Not all dinosaurs were carnivores. The food chain in places would be plant—triceratops—tyrannosaurus. In other places it would be plant—insect—shrew sized carnivorous mammal—dog sized carnivorous dinosaur—big carnivorous dinosaur.

For every step you go up the food chain, there are fewer individuals about. So 1000 shrews will feed 100 dog sized dinos, which will feed 10 big dinos. If something kills off 90% of all those species, the shrews have a population of 100 and will bounce back quickly, the dog-sized have 10 and may or may not make it, and the big dinos have 1 survivor wandering about hopelessly looking for a mate…

Similarly for big herbivores: for every 1 elephant-sized plant eating dino there are 10 horse sized dinos, 100 sheep sized dinos and 1000 voles.

The suprise is not that all the large dinos or the rare dinos went extinct (mankind is great at demostrating how to make large animals extinct or endangered by taking away their habitat or decreasing their numbers to a point of no return). The surprise is that ALL the sheep and cat sized ones went too.

Cacique said [However, if dinosaurs had not disappeared (again, for whatever reason), could there have evolved TWO rival sentient species (one reptilian and one mammalian), as Harry Harrison implies in the "Eden" series?]

I think Harrison has the right idea on this – they evolve on separate continents, and don't meet up until one species has the capability to do a big ocean crossing and "discover" the other species in the Americas.

If your two species are rubbing shoulders before that (say if they are at the learning to bash rocks together stage), then they are likely to end up competing if they have a lifestyle or needs that are in any way similar. Obviously if they are as different as, say, an ichthyosaur and T rex then they'll never meet and not compete.

But if both species live on the plains and eat diplodocus eggs, then there's trouble! The outcome at this "pre-civilisation" competition stage can be:

1. Species A drives species B to extinction, so B never realises its potential to become truly intelligent.

2. The competition drives a divergence in "mode of life", so that species A lessens the competition by becoming smarter and smarter, while Species B lessens the competition by staying dumb and becoming (say) a forest dwelling egg eater, rather than a plains dwelling egg eater.

Stronty, very nice thinking. Thanks.

CC

I still hope someone will make something like this in 28mm:

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Or:
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CC

I guess it depends on whether you believe in evolution or not?

No.

I game with many figures I know never existed and will never exist. And I still enjoy the occasional cartoons that depict made-up characters that speak (Bugs Bunny, etc.).

I also enjoy gaming battles that never took place.

Gaming is for fun, not for teaching doctrine.

CC

This guy looks perfect for the part. All I need to do is replace the scimitar with a more high-tech weapon:

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If he is a one-of figure, then I guess I will use him as a single reptilian humanoid stranded on Earth.

CC

If it is about a pre-historic subject, chances are CC has started the thread.

No KT would indicate that GOD was happy with things the way they were. No human evolution, a Saurian society. Star Trek with a Gorn Captain Kirk fighting it out with the unknown human adversaries!

I wish someone would make an entire range of these:

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CC

Someone should make 28mm reptilians in futuristic gear, with something like any of these faces:

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stvoy.epguides.info/?ID=500
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CC

I guess that these "Graks" might be around then:

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CC

About the Mojh:

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CC

Would any mammals have evolved to a higher "hominid" level (bipedal with a bit of intelligence)?

If so, which mammallian family would have had a better chance of evolving to that level?

CC
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So . . . what about feathers?

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CC

Hot cave chicks!

What if the KT asteroid had missed because it was nudged out of the way?

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CC

If you haven't seen my reptilian head project, here it is:

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Ed of Two Hour Wargames plans to produce it in three sizes (the largest of them is the one on the Kroot body).

CC

You guys will love this!

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CC

I DO LOVE IT!!!! A sensible non-humaoid sentient with some very intriguing features – Long live the non-upright biped revolution!!!!

Ed has loads and loads of things going on right now, so it made sense that he scrap the "Voth" (my name for them, not his) heads.

*SIGH*

However, he has graciously sent me quite a few of the casts, that I plan to use for my other headswaps/conversions.

So, stand by. I might have some interesting reptilian photos to share again soon.

CC
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Check out this article and pics:

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CC

Don't know if I want to do this. My idea of it would be more like this.

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Can we please see a "10" female of the species?

What? Don't real reptilian females appeal to your senses? Must they all have boobs?

I think the one here's very sexy:

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Ok. Just to be fair, here's a little eye-candy for the girls in our group:

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CC

I guess we would now be overrun by Khurasan's Garn like these:

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CC

I like the idea of the KT being 1/30-1/20th the size that it was, say .34km-.5km vice the 10km it was.

And without a great deal of supposed situational math, let us say the dust blanket lasts 3-6 months rather than the 10+yrs that it did.

With this in hand there would be whole regions clean of dinos and related critters leaving way for proto-mammals to gain a foot hold as well as regions that would retain some if not most of the current flora/fauna stock.

We could have a case of 2-3 sentient species on planet Earth.

Homo sapiens……………us, smart, fast

Homo neanderthalensis……human like, tough, strong

Homo subterreptus……….humanoid, tough, strong

Oooooo, I like how you think, 28mmMan!

What about a fourth sentient species, but one that is reptilian?

CC

lol Homo subterreptus is reptillian…"reptus"…funny guy…aaaa got cha!

I was looking at the overall impact and considered maybe a rough of Neanders in the cold regions, us in the warmer zones in the Western Hemi, and the reptus in the temperate zones in the Eastern Hemi.

Maybe a fourth of an aquatic…this is a science fantasy consideration anyway right? Maybe a weirdo from the primordial oceans…Homo cthulhus?

LOL.

You got me alright! I was thinking it read as in "subterranean".

CC

Maybe this, from Hasslefree, would have been the end result for our planet:

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Dan

Like humans and apes I kind of like the idea of this the "what if"
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the one on the left the master and the one on the right the pet like our gaurd dogs! now just add guns and armor to the master

War Monkey,

There ya go. That's the idea!

Dan

War Monkey,

Check this out:

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We may finally have some dinosaurids/dinosauroids:

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Dan
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This video is cute:

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Dan

Guys,

Could this have been what now walked this planet?

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Just found the photo.

Dan

Walked the planet, CC?
I'm almost certain I've voted for him.