"Bearskins, Colpacs etc." Topic

Does anyone have a good source of information which tells which regiments of French line and light infantry wore the bearskin in their grenadier/carabinier companies between 1807 and 1812. I have seen various lists but none seem complete. Also, in the light infantry, who wore colpacs amongst the voltigeurs or carabiniers?

I get a bit uneasy when this kind of subject is aired…..

The relevant Ospreys have a selection of variation info, including headgear for most regiments. But you won't get a definitive answer, too many variations, too many theatres, too many local variations, too many clothing issues.

Unless you have very particular unit history requirements (in which case try the re-enactment sites for such minutiae), for most practical purposes almost any preferred mix is justifiable.

Artilleryman:

I do not have access to my complete set at the moment, but the Roussellot (sic) prints have excellent details, including documentation, which makes these prints far, far superior to anything Osprey ever published.

Strongly suggest you find that authority to answer your questions.

MJ

Thanks for all the advice. I will look at Roussellot.

In the meantime, the regiments that concern me are, 15th Leger and 33rd, 48th, 108th, and 111th Ligne.

Artilleryman:

Looks like Friant's Division to me…prior to 1812 that is…as I recall the 111th went to another division under Davout's command with the reorganization prior to the Russian invasion. I recall that Roussellot does have specifics on these excellent regiments.

There is a new book on Davout's corps, called "Napoleon's Finest," being released, I believe, in three weeks. Perhaps youo are already aware and have already advanced-purchased the work.

Me ke aloha,

MJ

Shakos and Colpaks and bearskins, Oh my!
Shakos and Colpaks and bearskins, Oh my!
Shakos and Colpaks and bearskins, Oh my!
Shakos and Colpaks and bearskins, Oh my!

"Polkas, Schottisches and Waltzes!
Polkas, Schottisches and Waltzes!
Polkas, Schottisches and Waltzes!"

Schulz.

Maui Jim
Correct on all points. The rest of you…….

'There's no place like home. There's no place like home.'

"Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain."

"Dead for a ducat, dead!"

(I took thee for thy better)

Did the wearing of bearskins by line grenadiers definitely stop before Waterloo (yes, you've guessed, I've got some figures in bearskin and want to use them in 1815!)

c'mon, someone give me a straw to clutch at…

Bearskins in Line infantry were not used after 1812 with the Bardin uniform

"15th Leger and 33rd, 48th, 108th, and 111th Ligne."

My Osprey books show –

15th Leger – Voltiguers wore shakos with yellow upper bands and cords, yellow over red plume over red ball, red epaulettes with yellow fringe, yellow sord knot and gaiter lace (with red tassels).

33rd Ligne – Very little info here. The 33rd was one of the regiments which DID wear the white uniform. During that period, voltiguers and grenadiers wore the shako, with yellow and red plume, cords, epaulettes and upper shako band. It seems VERY unlikely that, after wearing shakos, the elites would return to fur. More likely that they kept the shakos after returning to the blue uniform. I ignored this, myself, and put the grenadiers in bearskins – BECAUSE I FELT LIKE IT. No foul in that, IMHO.

48th – no info except musicians (extant coat): dark blue faced red coat, dark blue shoulder straps piped red, flapless cuffs, white lace with interwoven red diamond pattern on facings, including button loops on lapels and six inverted chevrons on sleeve. Blue star on turnbacks.

108th Ligne – grenadiers in bearskins, c. 1809.

111th Ligne – no info.

The Rouselot stuff is on like, if I recall. I would check that, as well.

Also, keep in mind that colpacks were worn only by Legere voltiguers. They were never worn in the line infantry, as far as I know.

The Rouselot stuff on line is hard to read. The documentation part of the plates is not there, and the line and light regiments, like all the stuff, is sort of random in its order.

The trouble with Rouselot is that it is VERY expensive as I recall, and a plate gets you a single regiment. If anyone has a good source on the listings, that would help.

Check out the contemp eye witness summer 1813 illustrations by Bommer, Winkler, etc republished a few years back in 'Napoleon's last Grande Armee'. They have 1813 line Grenadiers in bearskin, old style long habit and long gaiters looking like they were marching to Austerlitz.
The same artists also recorded Lancers and Chasseurs in uniform styles reminiscent of the 1830s and 40s, complete with natty little goatee beards.
Shows what a mix of styles you could see in the same army in the same year.

'Bearskins in Line infantry were not used after 1812 with the Bardin uniform'

Bearskins were worn through 1814 by some regiments, such as the 46th Ligne. Bearskins were not supposed to be worn, but regimental commanders generally ignored the orders and did what they wanted.

'Also, keep in mind that colpacks were worn only by Legere voltiguers. They were never worn in the line infantry, as far as I know.'

Voltigeurs were voltigeurs, whether in the line or light regiments. Colpacks were worn if the company commander wanted them and the regimental commander either allowed it or ignored the practice.

'The trouble with Rouselot is that it is VERY expensive as I recall, and a plate gets you a single regiment'

Rousselot plates can be expensive, but if you're careful you can get them here and there for a pretty reasonable price. Sometimes they only cover one regiment, such as those in the Guard, but they also cover the line infantry, light infantry, etc., in three or four plates, as well as the gendarmerie in a plate, and the artillery train in a plate or two. They are definitely worth getting. I have about half of them now and am looking for the rest.

They were published recently, along with the descriptions, in a book which is expensive, but it has them all if I'm not mistaken. I believe On Military Matters has the book.

Sincerely,
K

Rousselot, Lucien (1900 – 1992). L'armée française par Lucien Rousselot. "Includes all 106 double plates: 23 Ancien Regime; 7 Restoration and the rest are First Empire in two slip cased volumes. Intro by Yves Martin. 2 vol, 450 pgs. 2009 $550.00 USD (at OMM).

Of possible interest: As M. Rousselot reprinted the older plates, the date on the back changed from the date of original production to the date the reprint was made. The two reproduction sets show the date of original production on the back.

I bought my complete set from M. Rousselot directly, buying my first plates from him in the mid 1950s – I think they were ca. $3.00 USD each at the time!

At one point, Historex Agents in the UK supplied them with a full English translation. The translation was, shall I say, interesting. <;^}

10th Marines wrote:

"Voltigeurs were voltigeurs, whether in the line or light regiments. Colpacks were worn if the company commander wanted them and the regimental commander either allowed it or ignored the practice."

I'm afraid I must disagree, and furthermore challenge anybody on this list to document a single instance of a line voltiguer company wearing the colpack. I've seen it on musicians, but NEVER seen it company-wide. I could be wrong, and I welcome evidence that I AM wrong. My line units welcome such evidence, but in 40 years of Napoleonic uniform research, have NEVER seen it.

10th Marines – please reveal your source. I've got companies of line voltiguers screaming to be issued colpacks, but so far I've not allowed it.

Of possible interest:

Margerand, J. Les coiffures de l'armee française; revue mensuelle illustree. Paris: Leroy [etc.], 1909-1913. 4 pts. in 7 v., illus. (part col.) col. plates. 33 cm.

Note: Issued in numbers of "Revue mensuelle illustree", between March 1909 and July 1913, as follows:

v.1 (no.3, juin, 1909); v.2, pt. 1 (no.32, novembre 1911); v.2, pt.2 (no.40, juillet 1913);
v.3, pt.1 (no.2, mai 1909);
v.3, pt.2 (no.5, au|cut, 1909);
v.4,pt.1 (probably no.1, mars 1909); and
v.4, pt.2 (no.7, octobre, 1909).

Contents:

1. ptie. Etat-major general, de 1815 a 1900;
2. ptie. Maison du roi, 1814-1830. Garde royale, 1815-30;
3. ptie. Infanterie, 1791-1815. Infanterie, 1815-1900; and
4. ptie. Cavalerie, 1791-1815. Cavalerie, 1815 a nos jours.

Reprinted in 2002 as:

Margerand, Joseph. Les coiffures de l'Armée française. Paris: le livre chez vous,2002. In-4,reliure éditeur sous jaquette, 502 pages, préface de Yves Martin, biographie de Margerand par Patrick Margerand.

Réimpression à l'identique des 42 livraisons parues de 1909 à 1926 ainsi que les n° 43 et 44 non-publiés à l'époque.

Les têtes de chapitre sont les suivantes:

Les coiffures de l'infanterie de 1806 a 1815: 21 planches couleurs;
Les coiffures de l'infanterie de 1815 à 1900: 21 planches couleurs;
Les coiffures de la cavalerie de 1791 a 1815: 21 planches couleurs;
Les coiffures de la cavalerie de 1815 à nos jours: 39 planches couleurs;
Les coiffures de l' Etat-Major de 1815 à 1900: 14 planches couleurs;
Les coiffures de la Maison du Roi de 1814 à 1815 et de 1815 a 1830: 8 planches couleurs; and
Les coiffures de la Garde Royale de 1815 à 1830: 7 planches couleurs.

Mr. Smith,

I do not have any of those sources. Do they have anything to do with line voltiguer colpacks?

widowson – well said! lol

Widowson,

You may be correct. I did a quick check and found line infantry drum majors, drum corporals, and regimental cannon company officers in colpacks, but not voltigeurs. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I'll keep checking my source material. Good catch, by the way.

Sincerely,
K

WS,

Just answered the original question:

"Does anyone have a good source of information which tells which regiments of French line and light infantry wore the bearskin in their grenadier/carabinier companies between 1807 and 1812. I have seen various lists but none seem complete. Also, in the light infantry, who wore colpacs amongst the voltigeurs or carabiniers?"

And yes, it does.

LH, I have a copy of the original, but am far to busy to look up such information. lol <;^}

10th Marines,

It's sometimes tough to keep the distinctions straight. I always got a kick out of the idea that the line voltiguers had drummers. I just built one for a new line unit.

But I have never heard of the rank and file wearing colpacks. As you say, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. It only means I've never heard of it.

Widowson

Yes indeed Margerand brings information about colpacks.

Anybody interested about French head dress – should obtain this work.

Steven, very impressive list of French sources, and thank you for them.

I doubt, however, anybody has them except you.

It must have taken you a fair time to write what was a very long message.

I think the "lol" at Widowson's remark was because it would surely be quicker – and you do say you are far too busy – to write a line or two of "yes" or "no".

Anyway, whatever, no offence I hope. My original question was about whether I might sneak a few Grenadiers in bearskins into an army of 1815.

I've yet to hear a solid "No" so remain, no doubt ignorantly, in hope! (someone put me out of my misery)

I have Margerand – so that makes at least two of us.

Steve was kind enough to give an idea where more information could be found.

Bearskins in 1815 – I cannot provide a solid no, but the French Army of 1815 is not of great interest to me, otherwise I would know.

LH,

I have seen no evidence of French infantry units still having bearskins for elite companies in 1815.

They were officially abolished ca 1810 mainly because the 'local' supplies had gone dry and it was very expensive to smuggle fur in from North America. Some regiments, like the 46th Ligne, kept their grenadiers in bearskins as late as 1814, but after that, and the disaster of the Bourbon restoration, probably killed any further idea of elite companies in bearskins.

Sincerely,
K

"I'm afraid I must disagree, and furthermore challenge anybody on this list to document a single instance of a line voltiguer company wearing the colpack. I've seen it on musicians, but NEVER seen it company-wide. I could be wrong, and I welcome evidence that I AM wrong. My line units welcome such evidence, but in 40 years of Napoleonic uniform research, have NEVER seen it"

Wow, that must make you about 230 years old, (assuming you were about 20yo "in the day").

"It must have taken you a fair time to write what was a very long message."

LH,

Well, No! Actually several minutes. I used two electronic sources and did a 'cut and paste job'.

To go through the pertinent Margerand text would have required quite a bit of time.

Sincerely,

B

Rapport présenté à Sa Majestél'Empereur par le Ministre Directeur le 24 mai 1811

J'eus l'honneur de soumettre à Votre Majesté le 27 novembre dernier, un rapport sur la question de savoir si les bonnets à poil et kolbacks des grenadiers et autres compagnies d'élite de toute arme seraient supprimés ….

Margerand p. 60

a survey on some reiments of ?1809/ 1810

gives a kolback for light infantry regiments

Voltigeurs de la division Oudinot
Carabinier du 7e
Carabinier du 25

Lejeune gives for 9e légére also bearskin caps for the carabiniers at the battle of Chiclana 1811 – being however grenadier style instead of kolpacks

and of line units

Voltigeurs de la division Oudinot

all based on the Collections alsaciennes de petits soldats,
Margerand p. 76 – 78

The above collection is not contemporary as far as I know, like Boersch, or Carl, were post Napoleonic.

there is a good discussion in this book why the bearskin caps should be abolished for the line and light units – due to the expense of bearskin from Canada, which deemed to be the only suitable one to produce them.

Trailape:

I wrote:
"My line units welcome such evidence, but in 40 years of Napoleonic uniform research, have NEVER seen it"

And you replied:
"Wow, that must make you about 230 years old, (assuming you were about 20yo "in the day").

Not sure how you managed such a calculation. I am 54. About forty years of research adds up, I'm pretty sure.

Von Winterfeldt writes:
"and of line units
Voltigeurs de la division Oudinot
all based on the Collections alsaciennes de petits soldats,
Margerand p. 76 – 78"

There does not seem to be any direct citation related to LINE voltiguers wearing a busby/colpack, except for the general statement. Perhaps von Winterfeldt could fill in with a few additional details or quotes.

As for Oudinot's detached elite division, Oudinot's own memoires (actually written by his wife), tell us that the entire outfit was issued "a sober shako," which I took to mean a plain black shako with an eagle and/or cockade on the front and no ornamentation. Perhaps a red pompom.

This made sense to me, given that each company of Oudinot's elite division (1806-1807 version) must have been wearing the uniform distinctions of its parent unit. Must have been quite a hodgepodge of uniform details – especially headgear. So a simple shako issued division-wide would have been a good, simple "unifying" garment. And such a statement in the memoires would seem to have come from personal observation or a letter. It's the only uniform detail given in the whole memoire.

As for 1815, the French could not even find enough bearskins for the "Old Guard" infantry. The odds of any line unit wearing them would be astronomical. Maybe for the sappeurs of the grenadier companies, but probably not.

Hope this helps.

The elite companies of Oudinot were drawn from line and light infantry, ergo

Voltigeurs de ligne with kolpack
and
Voltigeurs Lègères with kolpack

That the French did not find enough Bearskins for the Old Guard for 1815 is nonesense – in a new book about the Guard one can see that there was enough around to equip all batallions, this topic was discussed already before on this board.

40 years of research is a good quantity, but don't neglect the quality.

From 1807 – 1812, my advice is, if you cannot find a direct source, do what makes you feel good. Who's to argue? Why would they care?

For me, personally, any gaps in direct information are taken as opportunities for artistic license. This is an art form, after all.

I would also advise contacting a French infantry re-enactment group, if you can find one. They may only have information on their own regiment, but how they found it might reveal some sources. Just a thought.

Von Winterfeldt writes:
"The elite companies of Oudinot were drawn from line and light infantry, ergo

Voltigeurs de ligne with kolpack
and
Voltigeurs Lègères with kolpack"

I don't see the "ergo". If the line Voltiguers were not issued colpacks to begin with, why would it follow that they wore them as part of Oudinot's division? I still don't see a source which adequately documents Line regiments with colpacks worn by the line voltiguers. Again, I could still be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. I'm not trying to be difficult, but now my curiosity is aroused. But I would not paint figures in uniforms running contrary to my current knowledge, unless I see a reliable source to the contrary. Collaborating sources would be good, too.

The lack of bearskins by the 4th Guard Grenadier regiment is cited by Elting, using a Prussian source:

Swords Around A Throne, p. 651:

"Even the Old Guard infantry was unable to provide all of its new men with their traditional bearskin caps. At Ligny, seeing a French square in a shabby assortment of odd uniforms, a Colonel Lutzow concluded it was a National Guard outfit and led his Prssian uhlans at it, neck-or-nothing. A crash of point-blank musketry smashed his regiment abnd killed his horse. Pulled out from under it, Lutzow learned he had been charging the Imperial Guard's 4th Regiment do Grenadiers a Pied."

Do we have a better source than Lutzow who contradicts this statement?

Oudinot's elites assembled and were issued "a sober shako," in 1806. There is no ergo.

I looked up the Margerand source on Libre Rare Books, and translated the following description. There is no mention of French Line Infantry headgear from the Empire period – only hairstyles! Am I missing something?

Joseph Margerand
Les coiffures de l'Armée française ( headdress of the french army ) The headgear of the French Army (headdress of the French army)
- Paris ,le livre chez vous,2002 ,fort in-4,reliure éditeur sous jaquette, 502 pages, préface de Yves Martin,biographie de Margerand par Patrick Margerand. – Paris, book at you, 2002, in Fort-4, binding editor under jacket, 502 pages, preface by Yves Martin biography by Patrick Margerand Margerand. Reprinted with identical deliveries of the 42 appeared from 1909 to 1926 and Nos. 43 and 44 unpublished at the time. The chapter headings are: the hairstyles of the infantry from 1806 to 1815, 21 color plates – the headgear of the infantry from 1815 to 1900 21 color plates – the headgear of the horse of 1791 1815 21 color plates – the headgear of the cavalry from 1815 to the present 39 color plates – the headgear of the General Staff from 1815 to 1900 14 color plates – the headgear of the royal household from 1814 to 1815 and 1815 1830 8 color plates – the headgear of the Royal Guard from 1815 to 1830 7 color plates. Ouvrage indispensable original edition or in its réimpression.Très good condition.

WS,

Of course you are missing something. The chapter "Les coiffures de l'infanterie de 1806 a 1815" is about headgear. Just like all of the other chapters that start "Les coiffures de …."

Sincerely,

B

Hairstyles :-))) – what kind of translation program did you use?

substitude hairstyle with headdress – or headgear.

Margerand is not only covering hats, shakos, colpacks etc., but also helmets.

Maybe someone with translations skills could quote us the part where it talks about line voltiguers wearing colpacks.

Oh, and the term "hairstyles" came from the web site's own "translate this page" button. I have no idea what program they used.

Still waiting for evidence of line voltiguers in colpacs.

All comes to he who waits. <;^}

Shto eto "voltiguer"?

Allen

So, Steven,

You're going to make me wait and wonder? You have the source but will not reveal the information?

I provided the evidence already, you simply want to ignore it.

I have no such desire. Where in this thread is a list of line regiments which had voltiguers in colpacks? I don't see it. Sorry if I missed something. I don't have the sources mentioned, so I cannot look for myself.

Can anyone help me out, here?

And, as if it needs to be said, no evidence has been provided that rank-and-file members of LINE voltiguer companies wore the colpack. There is nothing but a list of alleged sources. This proves nothing. Not one single line regiment is listed. Line and light voltiguers are not the same thing.

come up with better sources then – either ignore the provided statements or do a better research