" The current trend to use unpainted miniatures " Topic

I remember how bad i felt when being refused a game at a club as a young gamer with incompletely painted figures. Tolerance mus be the way here – along with a nudges and advice to help people progress with the presentation of thier figures ? There are many wargame tables that detract or totally ruin the effect of the figures deployed on them.

I remember from some time ago seing articles on how to paint figures in a very basic but effective way. For example, choosing napoleonic figures in winter kit – then just painting hats, coats , faces and packs. Good overall effect, much better than one colour or lead. Starting wargaming with my son we just painted plastic napoleonics one colour then pack, musket and hat in black and a flesh blob on the face and hands. then based them – painted bases green. Simple and quick . It looked ok especially en masse. using a basic colour and one or two details plus basing could be done in a short time and look presentable ?

Are there any painters who could put tutorials ( or non-painters ) on the web which show this kind of strategy rather than tips for perfection ? I get my figures covered adequately so I can game whilst trying not to dismay the opponent with having to fight scarecrows.

Any current webpages which show this approach ?.
It may be more difficult for ancients ? Perhaps choice of army is the key ? Dont buy a Successor army if you dont like painting ? Try Numidians or Indians ?

The Dallimore book gives good tips for painting in a single coat over an indercoat. I was surprised how good it looked.

No unpainted mini's on the table!
If you do not have time to paint them,
Then you Certainly do not have time to play any wargames!.
If your painting is poor (only you care we just want some effort) Buy pre-painted minis.
I dont think there is much point for a long debate.
Simple answer is as soon as some one start to place unpainted minis on the table just start packing you'r minis away. when thay say what is wrong just smile and say I can see you are not ready yet.
Give me a call when your army is.

Toll

Why are we getting no new people in the hobby…because no one likes to hang around with jerks! Just reading this thread has turned me off and I love painted miniatures. When someone comes with unpainted miniatures:

A. They came, that's a big thing

B. They just invested a large amount of money in the hobby already. A descent assortment of paints isn't cheap. They probably don't know basic colors and blends to get the color they want. What's priming? layering, wash & drybrush, detailling. They need your experience and help, not your scorn!!!

C. They're interested in miniatures games, they may not realize the painting aspect of the hobby. Most board games come without painted playing pieces, just mono-colored pieces of plastic or metal.

D. No Unpainted Minis…Thanks for parroting the offical Games Workshop position--you Nazi B**stard; and losing a potential hobbiest.

Now that I'm done with the rant, here's what I've done.

1. Written a small booklet about how to paint minis including basic techniques, starting colors, color combinations and detailing.

2. The booklets were given away for them to take home and use when they did their painting at home.

3. Held several small workshops on how to paint miniatures. The store owners and Reaper Miniatures provided paints, brushes and miniatures. I had a young girl who was 10-11 years old and she produced a good paint job. I showed her techniques on her miniature. Her mom was surprized at how well she did. Another great incident was a young black who was there to paint. When I pulled out demo mini which was painted as a black man: Earth Wizard from Reaper. (skin color demonstration) His face lit up and I was quite happy to see his skin color on a miniature. It also showed miniatures were for everyone and not only Nubian Princesses or Lion Hunter.

Mugwump

P.S. I still have the word document on the computer if anyone wants it. I did not put in pictures as I didn't have access to a color printer. Contact me if you want a copy
keithbvaughn@yahoo.com put painting booklet in the subject line.

(Quote "Why are we getting no new people in the hobby because no one likes to hang around with jerks!")
A filthy thing to say even if you know the person.
We are finding it hard to recruit many people
because of a quick fix mentality created buy a mass market monopoly.
the people responsible for this monopoly change the miniatures needed frequently with rule changes and power up's,
in order to sell far more miniatures,giving less time to paint them before new and more Powerful miniatures are released.
All products are given a price code in order to obscure the price
At the same time the price is shown uncoded next to minitures painted to an elite standard as if its the norm.
This disheartens any new player who then will do what ever thay can to avoid painting miniatures
because they have been shown a standard they dont feel they will ever reach.
not that they have time at any rate because they will need in a short space of time to Purchase a whole new army
in order to win any games.
You are not given the choice to pay tax, you pay or go to jail.
Given the choice would you not rather spend that hard-earned cash on more mini's.
I am afraid a lot of people think of painting wargame figure's in the same way.
if you play with some one who has not bothered to paint their mini's they will never paint them because there is no incentive…
after all if your going to play with them any way the most they will ever do is a few token efforts.
wargaming is indeed having problems gaining new blood, you dont need to paint the figure's on a PC screen,
to compensate and to try and compete existing players let new players go out and buy huge armies
that they will never get around to painting because they are simply overwhelmed.
existing players should be telling new players No unpainted mini's on the table so only buy one unit and paint that
before you Purchase any more. then play small one unit games with them until they have enough painted miniatures to play
larger games.

(Quote "Just reading this thread has turned me off and I love painted miniatures")
This is a low way to try and make a point. Implying that because you do not agree with some one's opinion you may
stop your hobby.

(Quote When someone comes with unpainted miniatures:
A. They came, that's a big thing)

If thay wish to play they will be there, If they do not they will not

(Quote "B. They just invested a large amount of money in the hobby already.
A decent assortment of paints isn't cheap.
They probably don't know basic colors and blends to get the color they want.
What's priming? layering, wash & drybrush, detailling. They need your experience and help, not your scorn!!!")

No one should invest a large amount of money to start with. new players should be told from the onset to
only buy one unit and paint that before they purchases any more, also paint is not that expensive if you buy your Acrylics
from an art shop…£1.99 for 200ml of basic colours at The Works!
What disheartens new players the most is to be playing with unpainted miniatures against some one who knows how and
has painted there army with good layering and blending technique.
The only thing that is needed is an undercoat, a basecoat and a wash. drybrushing and detailling can come later but for
wargaming it is not needed. I will not play against some one who has not painted their miniatures to at least this
because I do not get off on making other people feel inadequate.
I have played against people that had not painted their mini's in the past and guess what
they felt inadequate and never got around to painting their miniatures because they felt that they could never reach my standard.
Playing against new people with Beautiful works of art is what I call showing someone scorn.
I have also spent hours showing people new to the hobby techniques that help them to make their figures look much better for minimum effort.
Its then up to them if they wish to pursue it further.
..and how to make good solid cheap scenery from basic household items that still look great on the table.

(Quote "C. They're interested in miniatures games, they may not realize the painting aspect of the hobby.
Most board games come without painted playing pieces, just mono-colored pieces of plastic or metal.")

Almost all advertising of miniatures is done with painted figures and so are pictures of wargames.
any shop selling miniatures will point out they need painting and try and sell paints along side any miniatures sale.

(Quote "D.
No Unpainted Minis…Thanks for parroting the offical Games Workshop position--you Nazi B**stard; and losing a potential hobbiest.")

No unpainted minis is not the offical games workshop position, no unpainted minis in official Games workshop event's is GW position
No GW staff member will say you can not play at home with your Friends'with unpainted mini's.
He or she are far more likely to say you need this new character in order to play.
Calling people Nazi B**stards because you do not agree with them is quite frankly Disgusting. You know nothing about me or my attitude to Games Workshop.
and again the Implying that because you do not agree with some one's opinion you may
stop your hobby.

(Quote "Now that I'm done with the rant, here's what I've done.

1. Written a small booklet about how to paint minis including basic techniques,
starting colors, color combinations and detailing.")

I applaud your effort's, But please do not call the minimum wargaming standard basic techniques.
This sends the wrong message, No one wants to be basic every one wants to be the best
and because lets face it the advanced techniques takes years of practice a lot of people get put off
and never get round to painting their army.
Your booklet sounds great for people who are wanting to take up the hobby of painting.
A booklet called painting for wargaming would be better for people who are only intrested in war games.
no technique should be called basic in this.
The minimum wargaming standad is an undercoat, a basecoat and a wash. drybrushing and detailling can come later but for
wargaming it is not needed.

(Quote "2. The booklets were given away for them to take home and use when they did their painting at home.)

Good your doing some thing worthwhile

(Quote "3. Held several small workshops on how to paint miniatures.
The store owners and Reaper Miniatures provided paints, brushes and miniatures.
I had a young girl who was 10-11 years old and she produced a good paint job.
I showed her techniques on her miniature.
Her mom was surprized at how well she did. Another great incident was a young black who was there to paint.
When I pulled out demo mini which was painted as a black man: Earth Wizard from Reaper.
(skin color demonstration) His face lit up and I was quite happy to see his skin color on a miniature.
It also showed miniatures were for everyone and not only Nubian Princesses or Lion Hunter.")

Holding workshops on how to paint miniatures is worthy, but why do you feel the need to mention that they where a 10 year
old girl and a black youth, It should not matter who or what we are, after all we are all equals.
Are you mentioning who thay are because as you have already pointed out any one who has said that they dont play war games
with unpainted minitures is a Nazi B**stard then they also are sexist and a racist.
You are an odious man, it is Utterly contemptible to try and add this sort of subliminal message in your thread.

Toll

Toll, well said. I found myself in the position of wanting to rebuke the said same poster but could not stomach the outlandish blather that was put forth in that post. So in disgust I gave up and chose to ignore it. Thanks for your efforts to stand up to that self aggrandizing drivel. I second the motion.

What the flying monkey- brought this Zombie stumbling back into my line of vision?

Stop posting to this thread and go paste something.

Pat

paint even

Toll…

I think the 10 year old girl and the black kid were used because there are so very few minorities and women in the hobby. Say what you like, that's a fact and it's one worth addressing.

Perhaps the point is whether or not we go out of our way to make people feel welcome. Many of us don't (for a variety of reasons). Getting self-righteous about unpainted miniatures might be one of those reasons. There are plenty of others.

I think you're dead wrong about the "quick fix" mentality and being just as self-aggrandizing as you think Mugwump is being. People have been blaming unwelcome trends on "laziness" or "these darn kids and their short attention spans" since, at least, the time of Hammurabi. I think there might be other factors in play… but that's for another thread.

That said, I really just don't understand why someone would use un-painted minis at all. If that was okay in someone's book, why not just use counters?? I don't get it…

Abeedle

There will always be more male wargamers than female ones,
but the diference is not as much as most men think.
most women that are in the hobbie generaly get involved through
a boyfriend or husband, who then thinks he is the luckest man alive
(bet you all thought you where the only one's)
most women who are involved seem to lean more to the modeling,
painting and Sculpting side of the hobby.
Two of my male freinds had their armies painted by their wives,
About a quarter of my other male friends iather had help from
their partners with painting or they where helping their partners
build their own army.
For some reason women who Do play seem to win most of the time.

as for minorities, assuming there is the same statistical proportion
in each hobby, this will still equate in real terms to fewer individuals
than majority segments of society, but at any rate minority is
perspective acording to the country you live in.
male white wargamers are the minority in africa or china and both
countries have always had a large gaming comunity.
I know several african and chinese gamers
who have carryed on there hobbie after they emigrated to the uk.

I dont Understand why you think I am dead wrong about a
quick fix mentality, we live in a throw away society,
large proportions of people feel some thing to be dated if it
is older than six months.

I do not believe that I have been self-righteous or self-aggrandizing
nor did I accuse or state that I thought mugwump was.
I did not mention or refer to any ones age or their natural
attention spans,a new player could be any age. Its you that has made
the assumption I meant young players.

I would not have written my last long winded post if I and every
one else who does not play with unpainted miniatures had not
been accused of being a Jerk a Nazi and a b**stard.

Can you not see that accusation's of this kind are worth your
rebuke far more than a rebuke against me.

Toll

Sane max, "Sorry" I will try and avoid writing on zombies in
the future.

Toll,

My apologies. It was Der Krieg Geist who used the phrase self-aggrandizing. It was wrong of me to attribute that to you.

As for the rest. I was merely pointing out that the mention of the young girl and the black man (or African American -- but I think perhaps Mugwump is in the UK) were not just throw-aways, but in fact worth pointing out.

In terms of "minorities" and women in the hobby, it is simply the case that where (I think) both you and I live, there are precious few women and minorities who play. I, for one, wish this weren't necessarily the case. I don't think that the reason it's not the case is because of a lack of tolerance for unpainted miniatures though.

Anyway, my point is simply that I thought it worth noting and that it wasn't an unreasonable observation on Mugwump's part.

As for the 'quick fix' thing -- I think you're quibbling, but don't really care. I think it's a mistake to attribute a lack of new blood in the hobby to the prevalence of a 'throw away' culture. But, I'm guessing that we could probably argue about this at great length and, in the end, agree to disagree. Perhaps you're a drinker and I can buy you a pint or two… it would, at least, make the discussion even more lively!

I think the whole "jerk and Nazi…" comment was over the top. You're right. And I should have mentioned that in my reply. Point taken…

Frankly, I think we should be encouraging people to "play" with figures… in any manner they like. The fact that they're purchasing figures is great for the hobby and our manufacturers.

That said, I value the aesthetics of the hobby, and wouldn't battle an unpainted army. I wince at playing with poorly painted ones!

It's all about escapism. I want a gaming table that tries to capture the uniforms, architecture, and terrain of a period and place. It's got nothing to do with right or wrong. Some people like liverwurst.

I know this is an old post, so I dont mean to wake a sleeping dragon, but as a "new" miniatures player I wanted to voice my opinion.

I have been playing minis for years, throughout high school, college and graduate school my friends and I would play. None of us really had money (what little we did have went to Ramen noodles, cheap alcohol, and trips to conventions), so things such as legos, board game figures, and other items represented our various units. Now that I am an "adult" with a job and a salary I have stated building my "real" army.

The thing is, I am an attorney and my job takes 60-90 hours a week. Now I am painting, I find it relaxing and enjoyable and a great way to wind down after a long day at the office. But I also like to play.

I play with a largely-unpainted force and rarely have any negative feedback. I know a lot of opponents would rather see a painted force: so would I. But really, I have 4 options:

1) not play – it is a GAME, games are meant to be PLAYED.
2) rush the paint job – I take satisfaction in doing a decent (not great, but not awful) job with my paint job.
3) buy painted models – whats the point?
4) quit – no way!

What fun is this "game" if I have to spend 6 months painting before I can even show up to play. I have spent hundreds of dollars on miniatures, hours reading the rules, and more time formulating an army list and strategies. I try and paint at least 5-10 models a week, but I dont want to rush the job just to get it done. I want to be able to look back with pride on the job in the future.

I am amazed at the ignorance of people who DEMAND a fully painted army before you play. When you first started the hobby was your force fully painted?

I understand half the fun is painting, but the other half the fun is playing. Who wants to be part of a hobby where they are not welcome simply because they are new, or dont have as much free time as someone else. Bringing unpainted models carries with it its own penalty: you cannot win certain awards, or maybe you are barred from winning ANY award. That is ok, I can live with it. Penalize me and punish my point total for not being painted. No problem. But to preclude my involvement until my force is fully painted? That is just ignorant.

Attitudes like that will ultimately kill this (slowly dying) hobby. We should really try to be more inclusive and less exclusive. I love the magnificant site of two colorful forces doing battle…but until my force is ready I will continue to play with only a partially-painted force.

I play table top wargames in part for the visual aspect. If I purely wanted to play for the tactics and strategy aspect, then a board game with card board chits would fit the bill, but I prefer the 3D look of a miniature wargame. I would never consider playing with an unpainted army, it just would not even cross my mind.

On that same note, the lazy approach to terrain is very prevalent in a lot of games I have seen lately. I recently watched a FOW game at the FLGS and they had nicely painted armies, but were playing on a mat with circles of felt cut to represent trees, chalked in roads and water and two door mats to represent farm fields. Again, the visual aspect is a big part of the game for me and I spend as much time on my terrain as I do my mini's.

I don't think there is anyone who would dispute that a newcomer watching two nicely painted armies duke it out on a well done terrain board would be more likely to want to take up the hobby then the same guy watching two armies of unpainted lead pushed around green felt and chalk lines.

Showing my age here.

I remember the thrill of going to a wargame club after only playing with Airfix.

The game was a Napoleonics game and they had real metal figures!Minifigs if I recall. I was the new boy and was given a unit to use.

Of course I was cannon fodder, but I came away from that game with a whole new view.

There are rules?You can paint like that? There are metal figures?

To tell the truth I was blown away.

Back then GW was a little shop in Dalling Rd Hammersmith and it was a magical place.

the paint jobs on their display models just made me want to do more.

30 years later I am still trying to get my minis the best I can,

but back then…new to the hobby………if some one had said "don't bother kid" then I know I would have missed out on a lot of fun.

As a previous poster said, I will paint my force at my own time and do the best I can.

But not to paint at all………That is not right IMHO

You make your force your own through your paint jobs.

WHEW!

The only thing I an add is I have a lot of plastic 1/72 scale minis and I would NEVER EVER use them in a game unpainted. I am painting figs now so I will have enough forces to run a game witha rules set I am woking on.

I get really insecure and self-critical about my own painting skills when I see gaming miniatures painted up far better than I ever could.

But in the end, I encourage the use of painted figs. I always say the worst-looking historical mini (plastic OR lead) looks ten times better with a paint job!

Paul

Wow… so much hate for the people that want to play more than paint. Seriously, guys, lighten up!

Can't play without fully painted minis? I guess we won't be playing, then, since not even my Weird War 2 army is finished (it's all basecoated and looks OK, but I still need to go back and get all the details). My Desert Rats have finished tanks, but no painted infantry or artillery.

Technically, even my Infinity stuff isn't finished, but there are at least 3 colors and a semi-detailed base on every figure.

If someone new to the hobby can't play with *his* stuff here in the US, he can't play most of the time, because most of us don't have spare minis to loan out. Since all the locals believe that any game (even with unpainted stuff on the table) is better than no game, we don't mind unpainted units. Do we start harassing people about taking years to get their army painted? yes, but those are the old-timers, not the guys new to the game.

Tell me, would you rather play someone new, or watch the game you love die?

Toll,

"Playing against new people with beautifully painted works of art is scorn…"

I have rarely read such pompous male bovine ordure. So do you keep special shoddily-painted duplicate armies in reserve, so that you don't offend new players with your 'first line' troops…?

I remember starting out and playing against a whole raft of people with exquisitely-painted armies. It did nothing except inspire me.

I'm only 16 years old, but I hate seeing unpainted figs on the table…I always paint mine to my usual standard, even if I have to paint a platoon for a game the next day (which I about did one time). This especially with convention games, if its just a quick pick up game, or testing out new rules or something I probably wouldn't mind as much if they were unpainted. If a person tries the best they can at painting an army, then I'm fine with that, as long as they tried to do their best.

Brad :-)

Unpainted miniatures on the wargame table--especially where you are not familiar with the other players--shows a basic disrespect for the players that do paint. A great paint job is not the point. The point is putting in an effort. If you cannot put in a minimal effort to paint the figures, why play miniatures?

I am especially irked by players who whine about how much unpainted lead they have. For the money, they could have bought a few units and paid to have them painted.

Otherwise, there are usually enough players with painted miniatures so that a player without any can use other people's troops for a single game.

I with the group that says: "If you insist on playing with unpainted miniatures, then find an opponent who also plays with unpainted miniatures." Those of us who paint, and take pride in it, are insulted by an opponent who thinks he's too special for such pedestrian pursuits. We all have problems, we all have wives, we all have limited time.

Excuses are like holes. Everyone has one and they all stink.

Again, what about those people that only have a limited time available, or are just getting into the game. Not all of us 'old-timers' have enough painted forces to be able to provide loaner armies; I'm jealous of those that have a well-established game group that will provide loaner armies for those that don't have their entire force painted yet.

What do you do when you invest hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours into painting a force, only to discover that the way that force works on the table isn't fun to play? Do you have infinite storage space to put those failed armies, or do you sell them off? How do you find a buyer for those forces that either don't work or aren't fun for either player? I'd rather get a few games in to see if the concept will work, even if that means unpainted figures or even (gasp) proxies, than to invest months of my limited gaming time to a project that I'm going to play a handful of times at most.

If a guy is making progress on getting his forces painted (ie, every week there's another unit finished and another started), are you going to say, "no, you can't play until your entire force is painted?"

It really boggles the mind that there are people that would rather only play with fully painted armies and lose out on games to people that are working on getting their armies painted.

If you do that around here, you'll never get another game in. Even after I finish my force, you will be remembered as 'that guy' who valued two fully-painted armies more than playing against someone new.

Do I paint? yep. Had a fully-painted Tau army, lost interest in the game, sold it. Have a Dark Angels army, in process of selling it. Have another Tau army, in progress as a 28mm ESWAT. won't sell that one. Have several Flames of War armies, in various stages of paint. Frankly, I look down on those people that contract out their painting (I do have some stuff that other people have painted for me, mostly in trade). Will I turn down a game because someone's not fully painted? No. The only reason I will turn down a game is when the PLAYER isn't fun to play.

This elitist attitude that says "It's all about the spectacle" is what's killing the hobby, not people that don't paint. The idea that unless you're just as dedicated as I am (either by spending money on a painted force or the time to paint), you're not worth my time as a person. Any further words to describe my opinion on this attitude would not just get me DH'd, I'd be told to not come back, ever.

I've been following this thread for a long, long time and it's been pretty interesting. I think one of the solutions is to do whatever possible to not be put in this position, either yourself or with people showing up with unpainted armies. When someone asks to join our club or game with us on one of our game nights we usually tell them what the period is and that we have everything needed, but if they want to come over and play there is a spot for them. That way even if they bring unpainted figs for that period we can say we don't need them and if they have an IQ of more than 10 they should be able to tell that everything is painted on the board. We will do whatever we can in terms of helping them with Ospreys, uniform info, painting tips, etc., but unpainted figs is a huge no-no with our group. This has worked well in the past and has created some pretty good painters and club members over the years.

As far as the rationale that since someone has spent a ton of money and should be able to assemble their figs quickly and start playing asap, that's fine, but I'm not interested. Don't you have other things you can play or are involved with other projects that can take center stage until your figs are painted? Most gamers I know have 10 things going on at once and can find something to do until their army is ready. I painted two ancient armies for Warmaster for an entire year before I brought them out for a club night. It worked, too, as now there are three others in our group who have painted armies! Is this era of self gratification, instant access to entertainment, and ADD type approach to gaming creating this where it's more important to get in a game than to enjoy all aspects of the hobby?

My hobby is looking through figure ranges, ordering figs, planning new projects, reading rules, reading research on armies, painting figs, gaming with figs, and talking about gaming! It seems like many of today's gamers what to skip 50% of that and just open packages at the store, pour superglue on stuff, then throw them out on the tabletop as they only have two hours to get in a game before they need to go home and watch American Idol. To each gamer his own and if that's your style of play and how you enjoy the hobby, all the more power to you. It doesn't mean, however, that I have to join you.

Ah, this must be a disjoint between the historical gamers and the fantasy/scifi types. I do prefer to have a spectacle, but if the choice is between NOT gaming and getting a game in, I'd rather play than sit around and watch.

I mostly play fantasy or scifi, with an occasional foray into historicals (Flames of War, starting some Ambush Alley), so there's times when we're trying something different. A friend of mine built an American Cav Recon company for Flames, even got it mostly painted, and discovered that it didn't suit his play style. I've had the same problem with some additional units to my '101st schwere Panzergrenadier Abteilung' (a Weird-War 2 unit). They might have been typical parts of a PzG battalion, but they don't fit the way the force works on the table.

I don't have a 'gaming club', there's one store in town that has open tables to play on. There is a semi-solid schedule of what games get played on what night, but that doesn't mean that I can't show up just about any day and get a game in with someone. In that environment, it's silly to refuse to play someone who doesn't have a fully-painted army. I'd very quickly not have anyone want to play with me.

I don't think I can really add anything much to this discussion, but here goes nothing.

I would say that any game that is open to the general public (non-wargamers) should have painted miniatures. This includes things like shops with tables in (á la GW) or clubs having an open day. Our hobby struggles against its negative stereotype, the least we can do is put on our best face to the world.

I would also say that tournaments, conventions and other "prestige" events should have a painted-only policy. These things are supposed to be the pinnacle of our hobby, and deserve to look good.

As for clubs that meet away from the public, I think it should be at their discretion. However, if I was running a club, I *would* allow unpainted miniatures, although I couldn't and wouldn't force anyone to play against an opponent that they found objectionable.

Ultimately, the hobby is tripartite: research (on the history or fictional background), painting and modelling, and playing the wargames themselves. Any one of these in separation from the others is an entirely different hobby, separate in itself.

To all the people who say "absolutely painted only", I wonder what you feel about people just starting out in a particular period. I'm just starting Napoleonics; it'll take me at least a year to paint a force at my slow but plodding pace, because I refuse to spoil my valuable miniatures with a slop-n-go paint job just to get them on the table. Do you honestly believe that that is showing you a "basic disrespect", and that I should go a year without gaming before you deign me worthy to play with you?

I feel disrespected just you talking about it! (just kidding).

I would play with my friends o rin my club with unpainted miniatures under your circumstances. I remember my friend painting his napoleonics and he played them mixed, some painted and some not during while he was in the process of painting his troops.

But I wouldn't go to historicon with them that way. I would be embarrassed.

Miniatures is more than just a game. If we only want the game, then we can play on the computer or with a board game. Miniatures to me is part simulation or recreation of the battle. So the better the terrain, and the better the figs, then the higher the enjoyment.

unpainted mini's are ugly.

I'm only 16 years old, but I hate seeing unpainted figs on the table

unpainted minis are ugly.

I could add more if I dig back far enough…

I suspect you will find common attitudes in all but those who have been emotionally scarred by the "painted or ELSE" crowd.

Even the apparently lazy youth who "can't be bothered" is probably comparing "looks like metal for free" to "hours of my life gone and still looks like " and making an easy choice. Does he like unpainted? Probably not.

The key is avoiding "surprise ostracism".

Many of the club gamers here probably heard "no unpainted on the table" many times before they bought their first minis. They knew what the social expectation was before making the commitment, even if they no longer remember. By comparison, many of the more recent newcomers, encouraged to "buy an army" by GW and others, *didn't* hear that rule until they had already spent the money, and probably heard a very different message while buying in.

If you want to encourage new people in the hobby, let them field unpainted units but at the ame time praise their efforts for the units that are painted, or encourage them to paint their miniatures by showing them how much better they look painted.

I was very lucky as a child as I had two older brothers that gamed napoleonics. They allowed me to use their beautifully painted figures to game (when I was still a grubby urchin) and encouraged me into the hobby. However they would never have dreamt of allowing me to bring unpainted minis to the table and I would not have even considered it an option. My elder brother gave me his Swedes and I purchased and painted more (Minifigs, which I have now passed on to my nephew) to create quite a nice force. My initial attempts at painting were poor but with encouragement and direction from my brothers my style improved until I became the premier painter in the family.

I was inspired by my brothers and I aspired to have beautiful armies like them. It took time, help and dedication to finally be able to field an army that was painted (mostly) by me, but the sense of pride, achievement and recognition from my brothers is a feeling I have rarely repeated in life.

So, put trust in newbies, let them game with your figures, encourage them, teach them, educate them, but based purely on my own experience don't let them put unpainted figures on the table. A quick fix rarely lasts.

Pete

I have been to miniature gaming conventions where unpainted miniatures are not allowed to be fielded on the table. I must admit that I would prefer this to be the rule for all gaming conventions that I attend. If you don't wish to paint your miniatures then why not save yourself some cash and buy a good boardgame for the period instead of lead that you are not willing to paint?

I'm an elitist period. I don't justify nor fret about it. Don't need to. People that don't paint their stuff usually whine, make excuses and rant about folks that require painted stuff on their tables.

Don't plonk down unpainted crap on my game tables both at my game house and at our Games Day (Skirmish 09) Plano, Texas. You'll get asked to take it off immediately. No apologies, no whining allowed. That's how it is and how it's been in our group since 1978. We don't hurt for games, players, or super looking collections.

Steve Miller
DFW Irregulars

This whole thread is just plain silly. Painting and collecting miniatures is just half of the hobby.

No everyone has as much time as others to get their stuff done. Are they supposed to sit back on their laurels and not play for risk of offending others? I'm sorry but to expect somebody to do that is just not realistic.

Wouldn't it be better to have them playing, getting better and painting when they can? If they only have enough time to either paint or play, I know I'd rather have them play.

Without commenting on the entire history of this thread, I will second the preference for tolerance and encouragement on this subject. Going around puffing up your chests and throwing your opinions around like a lead weight isn't going to do anything for the hobby.

You ask the question, "Do unpainted figures hurt the hobby?" I would say no, not as much as you might think. But being a total about them certainly will hurt the hobby.

Are you going to point and laugh or call names because a kid can't play baseball? Do you yell at your kid because his handwriting isn't great? How is this any different?

-Eli

I don't give a tinkers cuss for "the hobby", if I'm playing a game, its my game, and I wouldn't use unpainted figures, its simple pride in what I'm doing. I wouldn't insult someone elses game by doing it, either. I'm going off now to paint a window frame….of course I could just leave it looking dreadful or I can just slap a coat of emulsion on it. Or I can do it properly, rub it down, fill it, undercoat it and give a couple of coats of oil-based paint. Funnily enough I'll do the latter.

Are you going to point and laugh or call names because a kid can't play baseball? Do you yell at your kid because his handwriting isn't great? How is this any different?

I don't think that's any where close to an analogy. I would have to say there's no comparison to what we are discussing.

No everyone has as much time as others to get their stuff done. Are they supposed to sit back on their laurels and not play for risk of offending others? I'm sorry but to expect somebody to do that is just not realistic.

I don't know what kind of groups you guys hang out with, but I have never ever played with a group of wargamers who "excluded" anyone who wanted to play because they couldn't bring their own miniatures. So if they don't have the time or the money to paint, nothing is stopping them from participating in the hobby.

But if they want to participate in the hobby AND if they want to also bring their own mini's then a)take the time to paint them b)hire someone to paint them c) buy some painted minis on ebay.

I guess I'll make another statement on this thread.

If you're selling your game with a demo at the Con or whatever, sure, you can (and should) insist that everything be painted. *I* would insist on it.

Even GW, Privateer Press, and Flames of War insist on fully-painted and based armies in their major tournaments

To say "Your stuff isn't painted, you can't play" is destroying the hobby. Don't you want a new opponent? IF you've got the spare minis, let the guy borrow some. MY gaming group doesn't often have enough spare forces to share, so we let people run unpainted, and then tease them (gently) about how long before they get some forces painted.

Gaming is a social event. There's no reason to be rude, crude and socially unacceptable.

Thank you Lion.

-Eli

If you're selling your game with a demo at the Con or whatever, sure, you can (and should) insist that everything be painted. *I* would insist on it.

And for the record, I'm pretty lazy about painting.

Are you going to point and laugh or call names because a kid can't play baseball? Do you yell at your kid because his handwriting isn't great? How is this any different?

I don't think that's any where close to an analogy. I would have to say there's no comparison to what we are discussing.

It's closer than you want it to be. Both baseball and penmanship require practice, as does creating well-painted minis. To refuse to work with someone, to deny them the opportunity to improve their skills, simply because they don't have good skills *now*, is folly bordering on arrogance. Eventually, you won't have any players, simply because you've scared away all the players you could have had and all your old-timers have passed away. That is true whether you're practicing Baseball, Calligraphy, or painting minis to game with.

Theres the rub…No-one (ok, some might, but I wouldn't) would ever criticise some-one because of their skills or lack of them..the point is, they made the effort, which should be encouraged …however, an experienced player who just turns up with unpainted stuff shows a certain lack of (self) respect…

Ah, but that's the point, Christot: some of the posters here won't play with a *new* player unless all his stuff is painted. As far as I'm concerned, "Youse fing guys" are the ones killing the game, not the guy who hasn't got his stuff painted yet.

I'm Ok with it, the guy is new, and it takes time, especially for some "excessively detail-oriented" people. As far as the old-timers, though… Well, we severely razz one FoW player who still uses one painted guy per base, no basing material, and micromachine/whatever tanks. I know everyone's busy, I don't have a lot of time to paint, but to still be at that level several years after starting is a little … much. I'll still play the guy, just after I spend a few extra minutes giving him a little gentle abuse about his painting progress!

How am I killing anything much less the game? That's a spurious argument. I don't participate in this hobby FOR the hobby anymore. I fulfill my altruistic portion of my personality daily by working as a teacher. Believe me that is quite enough altruism! :) You should try it!

I do participate to further MY enjoyment of the painting portion of the hobby, to have visually spectacular games with good friends and not have to deal with "ghost" or metal figures nor the gits that attempt to foist them onto my game tables. It just doesn't happen. I don't/won't allow it. Our group weeds nit-noids and game-gits out of our equation.

Please explain to me how I am killing the hobby with specific examples. The hobby gets an extraordinary amount of my disposable income. I put on Skirmish Games Day in Plano, Texas with the rest of our group. My game house is 24x32 with 200+ 2x2 terrain squares with a collection that spans over 30+ years and is a prime venue for our group. I put on games regularly that use my collections and the superbly painted collections of the rest of the group. Uh…let's see…anything else? Oh yeah…I'm an elitist and have no problem sleeping at night because of it. :)

I'm listening…whatcha' got?

Steve Miller
DFWIrregulars

an experienced player who just turns up with unpainted stuff shows a certain lack of (self) respect…

Or maybe, just maybe, they've had that unpainted stuff for only a week…

Its happened to me, and at a convention full of the subset of gamers (historicals) that are more concerned with painted minis. It was a casual game, fortunately, but my cavalry had only been in hand a week, no one I visited during that week had any cav bases including dealers at the convention (the game was WAB), and I needed them for the agreed points. Gluing pairs of 25mm squares under them, I managed to get the game started. One of the onlookers commented on the funny basing. The rest of the army was painted, and the new additions were duly noted as such. No comments on lack of paint.

They ARE painted now, by the way, but if any of the onlookers had suggested I pack up and get out of town the reply would not have been polite.

to have visually spectacular games with good friends and not have to deal with "ghost" or metal figures nor the gits that attempt to foist them onto my game tables. It just doesn't happen. I don't/won't allow it. Our group weeds nit-noids and game-gits out of our equation.

Please explain to me how I am killing the hobby with specific examples.

Since this argument has "gone religious" I'm not going to bother. Before I write your club off entirely, though, I have one question for you, related to an earlier post on this page. Are your rules posted for prospective attendees to view, or do you toss the "game-gits and nit-noids" out with no warning?

Would I bring unpainted figures to use at conventions for sign-up games I'm running or for tournments? No chance in he**.

For a pick-up game with friends? If they agree (though they would probably ridicule me).

For a scheduled game where I'm hosting? I'd be embarrassed, and would rather just cancel it.

For someone else's game they're hosting and using all painted figures? I'd be super-embarrassed, and would probably not put them out on the table (likely to say I "forgot" them instead).

It's one thing to play with unpainted or half-painted stuff when you're just starting out, but entirely another if someone has figures for years and clearly is not painting them out of preference. That I can't tolerate, and will criticize if asked.

Rules are definitely posted for our Games Day. What I choose to do in my private game house is my business. Please feel free to toss however, whenever. Doesn't phase me a bit. Could care less.

We seem to be having a bit of a culture clash. I end up playing a lot of pickup games, because I've moved a lot in the last few years. When you don't go to the club, or to someone's house for your gaming fix, you either learn to accept those that don't have all their army painted, or don't get to play.

For almost 5 years while I was in the Navy, there were guys that *always* had unpainted units or figures on the table. We didn't give them too much of a hard time, because all of us that were seagoing could only work on our army for 3 months out of every 8. Making progress towards getting it fully painted was good enough.

The silver-suited warriors, though, got really old, especially when run by a punk kid with more money than remaining brain cells. We stopped playing him.

Let me preface what I'm going to say with whatever you do in your own home is your affair.

The hobby of wargaming is to game with painted figures. This is the standard. To teach new comers any thing less is doing a disservice to the new comer. To follow this up with,

Ah, but that's the point, Christot: some of the posters here won't play with a *new* player unless all his stuff is painted. As far as I'm concerned, "Youse fing guys" are the ones killing the game, not the guy who hasn't got his stuff painted yet.

is specious and rude. I don't know a wargamer who wouldn't offer a unit to a new guy. I've offered whole commands to new comers and game mastered the game. After all, there are always more wargames. However, if someone then wants to get offended that's his affair. As long as I'm civil, I'm not responsible for other people's feelings. This idea of walking on eggshells in order not to offend someone is buffalo poop.

I spend a great deal getting the paints I want in order to achieve the look I want. I study techniques of other in order to obtain my own technique. I use grey primer, not white primer or black primer. Grey gets me the look I want. I black-line, I wash, I dry brush, I blend; I bought a pen just to put black dots for eyes (OK I'm anal) and all this on 6mm figures ha, ha, just kidding. I work with 28s only. I don't ask new people to do this kind of painting. But, I do expect them to do their best and take pride in their work. If not, I'm not interested in playing with them. I'm not their mommy. I'm not their baby sitter. If you want a seat at the gaming table then take this hobby seriously. This includes painting. I'm here if they need help. I mean, look at Bill Stewart. When I first met him he painting sucked. Now he's a passable painter. I taught him everything he knows and he's won an award or two. Now instead of loosing with schlock figures he looses with beautiful figures. In fact, when we get together we're probably the losingest duo in wargaming. But our figures look good!

Keep the standard, expect people to do their best, take an interest in them and they will thank you in the long run. Lower the standard and you do a disservice to them.

Rich

The hobby of wargaming is to game with painted figures. This is the standard.

I think the folks playing 3rd Reich and ASL (to name just two) would disagree.

Keep the standard, expect people to do their best, take an interest in them and they will thank you in the long run.

Except that a common thread here seems to include no respect for the learner. The entry point to your version of the hobby is not the beginning purchase, but the painted completion. The "hobby" is the table, the dice, the game, and the beer. A fully painted army is the entry requirement, not the actual hobby. That's what I'm hearing here.

The hobby of wargaming is to game with painted figures. This is the standard. To teach new comers any thing less is doing a disservice to the new comer. To follow this up with,

Ah, but that's the point, Christot: some of the posters here won't play with a *new* player unless all his stuff is painted. As far as I'm concerned, "Youse fing guys" are the ones killing the game, not the guy who hasn't got his stuff painted yet.

is specious and rude.

Rude? yes, I was being rude, excessively so. My apologies. deceptive or having a false appearance of truth? I don't think so.

As far as the hobby of wargaming being to game with painted figures, I believe that both GW and Battlefront only half agree with that definition. They define the 'Hobby' as painting and then gaming with the painted figures.

Like I said, rude elitist snobs that will not allow someone to play without painted minis (and not loaning painted minis to game with) are the ones killing the hobby. If we are not doing things to get new players interested in the game, then eventually the current players will age and die, and the game will die with them.

Ergo, it would seem to be counterproductive to refuse to play with unpainted miniatures. To tolerate such things while the owner is in the process of painting shouldn't be much of an issue.

As I said, I only have an issue with those people that don't even try.

I don't have an issue with those that don't try….they don't get on my tables nor do I play them. End of story.

"Like I said, rude elitist snobs that will not allow someone to play without painted minis (and not loaning painted minis to game with) are the ones killing the hobby. If we are not doing things to get new players interested in the game, then eventually the current players will age and die, and the game will die with them."

And your point is?…I couldn't give a monkeys if "the hobby" died or not, (which it won't, with my help or without it)…I'm 48 years old,I've been gaming all my life, I have lots of figures which anyone I play with is welcome to use, in fact, I quite like providing all the figures for a game (although if someone had theirs I'd be equally happy for them to use their own). I have a variety of groups of like-minded folk I play with. I have NO desire what-so-ever to introduce or interest "new players", thats not to say I wouldn't do it, but I'm not going to compromise what I want out of my hobby to do so. If some-one turned up with unpainted figures I'd suggest they use my painted ones until they got their's finished, should be incentive enough for them,surely?

The argument that the hobby is dying because I'm an elitist is spurious in its merits. I'm not affected by this "die-off" and am not concerned about it. I don't go out of my way to interest new players, don't waste my time on "growing the hobby" anymore-all that did was produce another set of arse-clowns that wouldn't paint their stuff-a waste of my time and effort. Apparently that point just wasn't clearly made.
Go ahead and put the "rude"(that's BS) elitist snob mantle around my shoulders. I'll wear it proudly! I'd rather be a rude elitist snob than deal with gits that don't and won't paint their stuff. That's why I built my own game house, acquired over 2000 square feet of 2x2, fully sculpted, indexed, terrain, personally painted over 40 different collections over time in multple genres. I don't allow unpainted junk on my tables, have no tolerance for lazy players that won't paint, nor have time to waste to convert people to this hobby. Elitist? Perhaps? Rude? Sometimes. How it is? Yep. Am I going to change? Nope. Has this made my circle of gaming friends smaller? H@$l No.Folks clamor to play with well painted figures, on terrain that isn't a bunch of felt thrown on a skimpy game mat, in a situation in which they're not bumping butts with other fat guys in a dinky game store for hours. Does any of this affect the hobby? Not one bit! The hobby was there when I started and will be there when I'm gone.

Thanks for the new moniker! Rude Elitist Snob-I like the sound of that. As for your feigned indignation? I'm not moved in the least!

Thanks for your post!