"Ostruppen in Normandy 1944" Topic

The Germans had Ostruppen battalions in Normandy in 19944, my favourite WWII campaign.

Apart from containing troops of loads of different nationalities who were inclined to desert at the first opportunity how did these troops differ from their normal Wehrmacht equivalents? (You know those troops that hardly any wargamer ever models, the bog standard infantry, the troops who walked about the battlefield and had guns which were towed by horses).

In particular, would the troops here link do as Ostruppen?

yep, pretty much standard uniforms just different "badges" etc, they generaly looked like normal bog standard infantry. The only thing i would add to the above is that a few of the Weiderstandnest manned by these guys fought very well, granted not most but some. The support equipment of these units tends to be influanced by the position they held and the weapons installed in it. Axis europa do a few books on them that are wortha lookif your interested inthis sort of thing

I have also a feeling that their armament would feature quite a number of all sorts of captured equipment – especially as part of bunker defences.

Griefbringer

It all depends on the unit- some werepretty well equipment and similar to German infantry. Others, and I suspect but can proove this, that had been used more as labor units still had russian/captured uniforms. I own a WW2 Russian padded jacket and pants that were taken from a barn in Brittant which had been used by the farmner as warn clothes after the war.

Until the fall of The USSR France was one of the only places to find WW2 Russian military material as so much had been left in the country by the troops. Raincapes, mess kits, bags, you name it.

Some osttroopen fought well, others did not. Many were a major pain to the Germans as they caused havok in the French population. A friend of mine's grandmother raped by a group of them. The Germans took them out and shot them (the Russians). Again- YMMV by specific unit.

They appear to have had slightly different/lower scales of heavy weapons e.g. in 716th ID the Heer infantry battalions all had 48 MGs and 11-15 mortars of various calibres. The three Ost Battalions had 21-45 MGs, 5-15 mortars and one had a solitary Russian 45mm AT gun.

The entire divisional artillery regiment comprised captured Czech and French artillery.

This pattern was repeated in the 709th Div, although that has some Russian artillery batteries (along with French & Czech).

Ive got to agree with Martyn, my sources say the same sort of thing, standard german small arm, but a lower scale issue of support weapons, it quite easy to pin point which units (ost) were in which resistance nests and from there what weapons (heavy) were available in that nest. But as with all these nest and in line with most static divisions in the coastal area. Its a mixed bag of captured equipment from almost all the countries, the ones mentioned above being very common

Here's a little more detail on the Ostruppen uniforms link

Interestingly, the 21st Panzer Division was largely equipped with French Somua halftracks and Somua tanks mounting the "Stuka am Fuss" rockets when it was re-constructed just prior to D-Day, so the captured equipment wasn't limited to the Ostrupen

Wyatt

I concur with Martyn in most points, though I wouldn't say that they differed from German orgs. Two of the Ost-Bataillonen with 716. (439 and 642) were attached to Grenadier-Regiments 726 and 736 as IV. Bataillon. They had a heavy weapon allocation roughly similar to the other battalions in those regiments (i.e. two LMGs per section and a few mortars in 5cm and 8cm calibre). The other Ost-Bataillon (441) remained an independent security unit and was equipped accordingly with only one LMG per section and only a few 5cm mortars – this was also typical for German security battalions.

Most static divisions in France employed four rifle companies per battalion, rather than three rifle companies and one heavy company – most would have an allocation of two LMGs per rifle section, but some only had one. Heavy weapons would then be allocated either to the battalion HQ company, or directly to the rifle companies. Many, many German formations in Normandy used captured Russian, French, Czech, Italian and even British guns – it most certainly wasn't limited to the ost-truppen.

So essentially, the Ost-truppen were equipped the same as badly-equipped Germans! They most certainly weren't unique in the Heer for being badly equipped.

On Wyatt's point: The Somua S35 portion of II./Panzer-Regiment 22 (21. PD) was withdrawn to Mailly-le-Camp only a day or two before D-Day to re-equip with imminent shipments of Pz IV that were delivered throughout June and July. So sadly, the Somuas didn't fight with 21. PD aside from possibly one or two command tanks ( – and I've painted six!). Consequently II./ Panzer-Regiment 22 fought only with a handful of Pz IVs in its 5th, 6th & 7th Companies, plus 8x Pz IV B/C with short 75mm in its 8th Company. It was strengthened throughout June and July as the new Pz IVs arrived (but only really sufficiently to replace losses).

However, S35s were present in various garrison panzer units all over France – there was one in Le Havre, one in Cherbourg and one in Brest, as well as a panzer training unit famously at Ste Mere Eglise and other units elsewhere.

All of these had S35s to some degree (as well as H39, Char B, Char B flame, R35, and a few other types) and all fought the Allies.

However, there wasn't a 28/32cm Wurfrahmen fit for the Somua – the one you're thinking of is the H39 with quad launching frames – eleven of these served in the defence of Cherbourg (there was also a fit for the Renault UE tractor).

One thing I was surprised to see in Normandy last summer was the Soviet/Russian Maxim machine gun on wheels, apparently it was used by the Osttruppen.

Again – not just by the Ostrtruppen (if at all). Soviet Maxims were widely used on the Atlantic wall, as were Hotchkiss MMGs, Vickers MMGs and various other types. The Germans rarely threw ANYTHING away! As mentioned abouve, just because it was Russian doesn't mean that it must have been Ost-truppen using it.

Quite indistinguishable from German Heer units, except the Osttruppen washed their hands for suppa. SPR reference. : )

Thanks for all the info chaps.

I seem to recall reading a quote to the effect that, "perhaps it was to much to expect Russians to fight for the Germans against the AMericans in France"…..

Heres a good example for you, the attack by 6th Green Howards on king Green (Gold beach)a general over veiw notes that a break through was obtained with light resisatnce owing "most of 3/ost 441 men having fled", however it is also apparent from more detailed reading that WN-35 offered determined resistance but was over run. WN-34 simply gave up due to the pasting they recieved in the pre bombardment and WN-33 fought well before being over run. some of these resistance nest in this area "particulary WN-37 and 38" were still fighting at 17:00 hrs, these two nests may have been under 352nd Div and so not relivent, but the coment is "particularly" indicates they were not alone.Also these nest were in the area of Vur-Sur-Mer where 441st held postitions. they certanily had troops in the Meuvaines area just behind these positions. it would be fairly easy to find out the weapons allocated to these resistance nest from the bunkers they contained and for that work out waht support weapons they had.

"So sadly, the Somuas didn't fight with 21."

Indeed they didnt but the 21st had a rather imaginative OB with much based on French vehicles/chassis. For example they used the French Lorraine Schlepper tracked carrier as a basis for the 7.5cm PaK40/1 auf GW Lorraine Schlepper (SdKfz 135), the 10.5cm leFH18 auf GW Lorraine Schlepper and the 15cm sFH13/1 auf Geschutzwagen Lorraine Schlepper (SdKfz 135/1). Quite a nice change for the gaming table.

"I seem to recall reading a quote to the effect that, "perhaps it was to much to expect Russians to fight for the Germans against the AMericans in France"…..

Yes, I read that in Invasion, They're Coming too. Funny comment. That and something about "Chairborne gentlemen."

Marc – absolutely! 21st PD is an absolute must-buy if you can get the models! It's just a common misconception that all the French armour was grouped in 21. PD, when in fact it was A LOT more common than that!

StuG-Abteilung 200 is an absolute must with all those Hotchkiss SPs. And the Lorraine 15cm was very widely used in the area – the divisional artillery had them, as well as the Panzergrenadier SiG companies AND even the Panzer-Grenadier battalion HQ companies had a platoon of them. There was also a battery of four nearby in 716. ID, which constituted the only armoured counter-attack against the beaches on the morning of D-Day. And other units had them as well (either as SP artillery or as SiGs).

Of course 21. PD also contained the sexiest AFV of the war – the Panzerbeobachtungswagen Lorraine (somebody please make a model of it in 15mm)! :o)

some other French-type armour in the area was the 1st company of Panzerjaeger-Abteilung 716, which had 9x Marder I (basically the same as the other Lorraine SPs with the PaK 40 and different gun shield) – it was these that were the first armoured response against Pegasus Bridge (and subsequently mythologised as Pz IVs).

And, if we advance the time frame, we run into French armor or modified French armor at Arnhem with Panzer-Kompanie 224. They gave up 17 of their Somuas to Panzerjager-Abteilung 657 keeping only the company commanders Somua, and received 17 Char Bis 2 of which most (I believe 15 of them) had been converted to flamepanzers with the flamethrower equipment replacing the hull mounted 75.

It's a bit more complicated – Panzer Kompanie 224 was actually a part of PzJagAbt 657 and was detached from it at Arnhem. They also had a company of R35s (which was engaged by Canadians at Arnhem in 1945) and a company of towed PaK 40s and Panzerjager 35R(f). I haven't read of them having given up Somuas before. Somuas were popular as command vehicles and were often found in ones and twos as HQ vehicles (for example Panzer-Ersatz-und-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 100 at Sainte-Mere-Eglise, who also had a single command Somua).

Depending where an Ost-Battalion was deployed and who the battalion was recruited from would effect the equipment they fielded.

Those serving on the Western Front would have been more uniformly equipped than those still serving in the East. Also, their deployment in the West was less complicated as it was more formalised within the structure of existing German formations.

There are several accounts I've read of the Ost-Battalions being issued a Light Blue/Grey uniform. These were locally produced for units based in France to replace the hap-hazard assortment of uniforms the Ost-truppen arrived wearing in 1943. Their equipment would have been a rather mixed bag, many of them would be almost identical to standard German equipment and uniforms, though they would have had a rather baffling array of badges representing the different parts of the soviet union they'd be drawn from. Also, a lot of their LMGs and HMGs would still have been of Russian origin. The better battalions would have got more German equipment. The Georgians for instance were usually extremely well equipped for Ost-battalions and the Estonians on the Eastern Front would have been completely identical to German units, they even wore German insignia and decorations.

The battalions the Germans formed out of so called "Turkic" nationalities would have been referred to as Turk-Battalions, not Ost-Battalions. They made a clear distinction, though I'm not 100% sure as to when this distinction first came into being. Though the reasons for this distinction are clear simply because of the huge numbers who joined the German army, by the time the war had ended, perhaps as many as 250,000 Tukistanis had served. Some books put this figure at around 150-180,000 and others at over 300,000, though I would imagine the truth could never be accurately gauged because of the un-official nature of much of the recruitment.

Also worthy of note is the size of the Ost/Turk Battalions. Many of them would have been significantly larger than the German formations they were integrated alongside. As I understand it, the standard German formation in the west was: 700 men in a HQ and 4 companies. Where as the Eastern Legions tended to be 1000 men in a HQ and 5 companies, with an additional labour company.

There was very little conscription involved in the recruitment of the actual Ost-truppen, though many of the construction battalions were made up of conscripts from POW camps. These construction battalions wore German uniforms, but the few firearms they would have possessed would have most likely been of Russian origin. The battalion that revolted on Texel Island in the Netherlands was one of these construction battalions, made up predominantly of conscripts and even elements transferred from other battalions for being disruptive.

The fighting ability of the Ost-truppen is perhaps a little under-rated, many of them did indeed throw their hands up as soon as they saw their first allied soldier. But many fought on until the end of the war. There were several battalions of Ost-truppen involved in the defence of the Netherlands during operation Market Garden, these units in some cases were the same units that had been used, rather ineffectually, against the allies in France. Also, of some interest, there were several battalions of what the Germans referred to as "Coal diggers" used throughout the Market Garden campaign, these were construction battalions made up almost entirely of conscripts from POW camps. The Germans were rather surprisingly able to motivate them to fight, though their contribution was far from decisive.

On the table top, the troops could be painted in the Light Blue / Grey pattern uniform I mentioned. There could be a sprinkling of Russian Equipment, a large percentage of the support weapons would be of Russian origin, perhaps some of them would be wearing WW1 era helmets as these were often issued when necessary.

I think your getting confused there VCB, the lighter blue uniform is that worn by the POA? russian liberation army, the German atempt at a "national" army. Those wore the blue uniform but as you sid had a very rag tag feel and they did indeed use large amounts of their own equipment. Theey are though seperate from the ost battalions inbedded in normal infantry divisions. As are the various construction units, although as with most things they did a lot of contruction duties

Concord Publications Armor at War Series #7039 "German Armored Units at Arnhem September 1944" is one reference for the Somuas of 224. Nice section in the book on just the 224 with some great shots of their Char Bis.

I have heard OST units could be very effective when they were chained to weapons and fortifications. They were even more effective with a Waffen SS trooper standing behind them with a submachine gun.

Could anyone comment if this really happened?

They were R35s, not S35s – only the HQ tank was an S35. The R35s concerned were the ones engaged by the Canadians in 1945. Both the new company formed by the R35s and PzKp 224 were suboordinate to PzJagAbt 657.

Dragon Gunner – it never happened on the Western Front to my knowledge na dit sounds VERY fanciful to put it mildly. Certainly there were no SS anywehere near the Normandy beaches when the Ost-Truppen were fighting to defend them.

There was no real POA army, all units of Russian Origin in the Heer, not those in the SS, became members of the POA/ROA, but did so in name only. They didn't leave their parent German units, they merely changed insignia and received additional lectures from POA/ROA officers. So the light blue would indeed have gone to members of the POA/ROA, but these would have been the same units I spoke of earlier.

The ROA/POA never went to the field as a unified body. You perhaps mean the KONR which began to form in late 1944 and was formed by amalgamating several units and from intakes of fresh volunteers. This unit has often been described as under manned and under-equipped, but the opposite seems to have been the case. The KONR had two divisions of 20,000 men each, with their own tanks and tank destroyers.

The rag tag formation you're referring to is probably Kaminski's POHA/RONA.

Derek – I've taken a good long look at the figures you have. Really nice by the way!

They'd make EXCELLENT members of the Georgian Legion, which were more uniformly equipped than most Eastern Legions.

VCb, i think were going round in circles. Im on about ostruppen battalions in german line divisions, 352nd etc. nothing to sujest these wore the blue uniform infact more the opposite, both the Green howards and East yorks diarys refer to "East Europians in German uniforms" ive never seen anything about them wearing blue in Normandy.

Just to add: Ost-Bataillon 439 was the Ost-bataillon with 352. Infanterie-Division. As menitoned above, it was also known as IV./Grenadier-Regiment 726 of 716. Infanterie-Division, but was actually attached to 352. ID on 6th June along with III./Grenadier-Regiment 726 and III./Artillerie-Regiment 1716, also from 716. ID.

The reason for this was that 352. ID had been moved into the left of 716. ID's sector just prior to D-Day (to thicken the line and allow 716. ID to concentrate in what was to be the Gold-Juno-Sword area), but was still conducting the relief-in-place when the landings occurred.

So 716. ID had the only Ost-Bataillonen in the are of the Normandy landings, though one was temporarily attached to 352. ID, hence the confusion.

I think it was also done to ofset the removal of both Battalions of 915th Regt 352nd div along with the Fusilier Battalion of 352 to form Kampfe gruppe Meyer.

according to the info I have the following Ost battalion were in the Normandy area, 439, 441, 642 with 781 further out towards Rouen. 796 Georgian, 649 and 797 in the Cherbourg area with 823 and 643 on the island off the side of Cherbourg peninsula

I think I understand now why we're having a problem. I'm not suggesting that ALL the units that came from Russia were clad in Blue. This was simply a local expedient that was issued as needed. Only the Ost-Battalions incorporated into the German formations in the west would have worn the Blue, as the material came from French stocks.

These sources are off the top of my head and refer to the Light Blue / Grey uniformed Ost-Battalions:

"Foreign Volunteers of the Wehrmacht 1941-1945" – Osprey – This even has a colour plate of the Blue uniform.

"Hitler's White Russians" contains References to the Blue Grey and also says that part of the uniform was produced from old French stocks.

"Hitler's Osttruppen Vol II" (I think two) contains a reference to a blue uniform being issued to troops arriving in France.

These men clad in blue would still have been in German uniforms, with German insignia and German helmets. So this would have been seen as just another uniform variant, nothing particularly noteworthy at the time.

Just to clarify again, I'm not talking about separate Russian fighting units, I'm talking about the uniforms and equipment of Ost-Battalions integrated into German formations. I never said this was a common uniform variant and if that was suggested, then perhaps this is where the confusion has arisen from.

Vcb, trying to get to the same point from different angles I think ;-)

is the ostruppen one the reprint or the original? I dont recall anything in my one, I maybe mistaken though and I think it was reprinted so it could be in that.

I think I'm just not getting what part you're not understanding.

I understand fully. lets make it simpe, in the Hitlers ostruppen booklet you mention a referance to the Blue uniform, is your copy the first edition or the reprint as I can see no mention in mine?

link

This is one of the books I have, I think we're talking about the same book, though I gave the title slightly incorrectly.

What I don't understand is that you said : "…the lighter blue uniform is that worn by the POA? russian liberation army, the German atempt at a "national" army"

You made the point I'm trying to make, that the POA wore the blue-grey uniform. Though, I'm not sure where you've got the idea that the POA were somehow separate to the Ost-battalions in Normandy.

There is an excellent Russian language site about Soviet Citizens in German service, take a look, it's a fantastic resource.

link

At the bottom of this page they have an illustration with the following commentary:

"Soldier from Eastern batallion 1943 -1944. In summer 1943 Some of eastern batalions received new uniforms grey-blue color, made by Russian fashion: Guimnastiorka with collar and 4 pockets, and pants weared this uniforms was given to fomations servd in France 1944 this uniform was made especially for Russians of material used for german railway police, another version was French wool First World War period."

It's a shame the translations are a little confusing, but the illustrations on this website are fantastic.

got it now, youve got the reprint cant see it in the original.

probably didnt word the other too well, what i was/ am trying to get at is that whilst the "ost" battalions did come under POA/ROa or what ever in realality the units in the German division in france did not, in name yes, in practice no. Im not refering to Hiwis or the forced labour units. just the units in the west.

as for the uniforms well who knows with a quote like that, from my veiw point ive got first hand witness reports of the "ost" troops wearing normal german uniforms, i think if they were wearing blue then they would be refered to in that way "East Europeans in blue uniforms". I would doubt that your average soldier knew anything of the uniform much beyond its colour and so obvious a difference would to me be used to identify them.

nice links though.I have to look up the reprint too.