"Austrian grenadiers 1809" Topic

Austrian infantry regiments in 1809 had two companies of grenadiers that were usually converged in seperate battalions.

So for example the grenadier brigade at Eckmuehl (not involved) had a Grenadier Battallion "Maybluemel" consisting of companies from IR 8, 22 and 60.

Who commanded those Grenadier Battalions (assuming that the battalion commanders of the infantry regiments had to command their own battalions)? Where did the commander come from?

Why the name "Maybluemel" in the example? (Is that the commander?)

For my 1:50, 4 stand, 4 men per stand wargaming battalions i will paint one stand for every infantry regiment. The last is the command stand. What colours would you give the commander, the musician and the standard bearer?

The grenadier battalions used Ordinaerfahnen, right?

I used to know a lot more of this stuff, but this is what I remember.

Officers were appointed from other regiments, just as new officers would come in as batallion commanders when a new one was needed. The commanders would give their name to the batallion.

The batallions would use whatever colours the grenadiers that composed the batallions would have – that could be, for some companies, the leibfahne of their mother batallion! For some it could be none…

You can use the colours of the command stand, pick any of the composing companies ;-)

Cheers,
Koen

Yep, they could have either colour (or none) and the three 'divisions' (or occasionally only 2) in each grenadier battalion would have facing colours according to their parent regiments as would any musicians, company commanders or standard bearers. Strength was lower than normal companies so most of the 17 battalions in Bavaria in 1809 had between 700 and 800 men by the time they got to Aspern Essling (so your figures totals above seem close enough). Battalions were named after their commanders and renamed if he was killed. I believe each regular battalion had 2 colours (6 per regiment) so that is where your grenadier colours are coming from. The annoying bit for wargames is that the battalions were only semi-permanent so the parent regiments in each battalion changed from campaign to campaign although they were composed of troops whoose parent regiment were on the same army/force (so teh Grenadiers serving in Italy came from regiments in Italy) and usually they would try to keep troops from the same home country together (Moravians/Bohemians etc.) for 1809 most battalions had troops from 2 regiments in the same brigade and therefore usually of the same nationality and then the third division from another brigade but of the same nationality. Almost always Hungarians and /Germans were in seperate battalions.

see articles on the Napoleon series
napoleon-series.org

this is one extract

As stated previously, grenadiers operated in independent battalions separately from their parent regiments. These battalions bore the name of their commanding officer.

Grenadier Divisionen in 1809

Battalion
2 Companies from the Following Regiments

Battalion Hohenlohe
1/29/38

Battalion Hahn
2/33/39

Battalion Bissingen
3/50/58

Battalion Scovaud
4/49/63

Battalion Stark
7/18/21

Battalion Mayblumel
8/22/60

Battalion Legrand
9/55/56

Battalion Wienawsky
11/11/47

Battalion Oklopsia (then Cappy)
12/20/23

Battalion Puteany
14/45/59

Battalion Nissel
15/28/57

Battalion Salomon
16/26/27

Battalion Georgy
17/36/42

Battalion Janusch
19/52/61

Battalion Brzezinsky
24/30/41

Battalion Leiningen
25/35/54

Battalion Scharlach
31/32/51

Battalion ?
34/37/48

Battalion von Muhlen
53/62

Battalion ?
13/40/43

Battalion ?
44/46

And this was pinched from some other forum, gives an idea of strengths
" At Aspern-Essling in 1809, Division FML d'Aspre in the 1st Reserve Korps had eight grenadier battalions of 610men, 682 men, 665 men, 706 men, 727 men, 659 men, 700 men and 613 men. Divide those figures by X and that will give you an idea of the number of figures you need for your average grenadier battalion"

I think the commander would normally be a spare major or possibly oberst-leutnant from one of the regiments, as said the battalion took his name (common practise from the early 18th century)

Scott Bowdens "armies on the danube 1809" would be useful

Just waiting for Carnot93 to join in and blow us away with his indepth postings (just teasing Bob)

I see your book is being quoted as a source on some websites already . . well done!

I used the senior regiment (like 25 of 25/35/54) for the command stand figures.

In my case I decided to use the junior regiment for the command stand myself, as I would have thought the senior regiment would take position on the right flank, the "post of honour", while the next in seniority would form up on the left, with the junior in the centre- which is where I want the standard.

I was basing this on 18th C. practice which seemed appropriate for those good 'ol traditionalists the Austrians, but I freely admit it is a purely conjectural rationale on my part.

I believe Austrian colors were posted to the right of the battalion formation – the guide was to the right for the unit. I plan on placing the flags on the right hand stand for the Austrians — and in the center stand for most other armies of the period.
Pete

Many thanks to your answers.

I knew that this forum could help me. :-)

Frank

Where is Dave Hollins when he's needed? As I understand what he's posted in the past, Austrian grenadiers carried a spare ordinarfahne, NOT the leibfahne. The exception is the 1805 campaign, where the Grenadier battalion was the first battalion of each regiment, so carried the leibfahne.

Also, the idea that Austrian battalions carried the colours on the right is a myth – they were in the centre like everyone else's.

Jeremy

Funnily enough there was a situation where the Austrians did not have the flag in the middle of a battalion in line.
When they extended the defensive line by forming platoons of the third rank, these lined up on the right of the battalion, the flag staying it where it had been. Plate 38 in the 1807 regs. (Plate no. may vary between publications) . The color hence ended up rather on the left.
But otherwise the flags were in the middle of a battalion in all the regs 1749 through 1807.

Battalion ? = Chimani, later Demontant
13/40/43

Battalion ? = Portner
44/46

Regards, Geert
link

Forgot one:

Battalion ? = Kirchenbetter
34/37/48

Geert

Just to confirm, as I'm at the moment painting up some Grenadiers.
Each battlion would consist of possibly 3 different coloured facings due to the parent battlions?

- As I understand what he's posted in the past, Austrian grenadiers carried a spare ordinarfahne, NOT the leibfahne. The exception is the 1805 campaign, where the Grenadier battalion was the first battalion of each regiment, so carried the leibfahne. –

You are right. Unless it's 1805, Grenadiers would not carry the Leibfahne.

wrgmr1

Exactly, below you can see the Grenadiers battalions present at Aspern-Esling, and their respective colours

3rd Division – FML Lindenau

§ Grenadier Battalion Leiningden (742): 25/35/54 – sea green, apple green, crab red

§ Grenadier Battalion Portner (713): 44/46 – madder red, dark blue

§ Grenadier Battalion Georgy (745): 16/26/27- violet, parrot green, emperor yellow,

§ Grenadier Battalion Wieniasky (837): 11/11/47 – pink, pink, steel green,

§ Grenadier Battalion Demontant (778):13/40/43 – grass green, carmine, sulphur yellow

§ Grenadier Battalion Legrand (744): 9/55/56 – apple green, pale blue, steel green

§ Grenadier Battalion Hohenlohe (708): 1/29/38 – pompadour (dark red), pale blue, rose pink

§ Grenadier Battalion Hahn (523): 2/33/39 – emperor yellow, dark blue, carmine

4th Division – FML d'Aspre

§ Grenadier Battalion Brzeczinski (610): 24/30/41- dark blue, light pike grey, sulphur yellow

§ Grenadier Battalion Puteany (682): 14/45/59 – black, poppy red, orange-yellow

§ Grenadier Battalion Scovaud (665): 4/49/63 – sky blue, light pike grey, light brown

§ Grenadier Battalion Scharlach (706): 31/32/51 – emperor yellow, light blue, dark blue (Violet)

§ Grenadier Battalion Mayblümel (727): 8/22/60 – poppy red, emperor yellow, steel green

§ Grenadier Battalion Oklopsia(659): 12/20/23 – dark brown, crab red, poppy red

§ Grenadier Battalion Bissigen (700): 3/50/58 – sky blue, violet, black

§ Grenadier Battalion Kirchenbetter (713): 34/37/48 – madder red, poppy red, steel green

Iannick
Clash of Empires link

Thanks ArchiducCharles!!!

Another resource you should consider is John Gill's "Thunder on the Danube 1809"

link

IMHO it is far superior to "Armies of the Danube 1809" and it is also a lot cheaper.

Elliott