| Cacique Caribe | 03 Dec 2005 8:22 a.m. PST |
Seems like the Portuguese (even when technically part of the Spanish empire) were also busy in the New World, Africa, etc., during the 16th century. Who were some of these more accomplished Portuguese explorers and conquerors of the 1500s? Names? Accomplishments? Any good links? CC |
| basileus66 | 03 Dec 2005 9:48 a.m. PST |
They were technically part of the Spanish empire only from 1574 'till 1640. Before and after those dates Portugal was an independent kingdom, with a truly impressive overseas empire of their own. |
| Cacique Caribe | 03 Dec 2005 9:56 a.m. PST |
You are absolutely right, Basileus66. That is why I also wanted to include any accomplishments during the "united" period ("even when technically part of the Spanish empire"). CC |
| Fanch du Leon | 03 Dec 2005 11:07 a.m. PST |
Pedro Alvares CABRAL was the portuguese explorer who gave Brazil its name although he was not technically the European who saw brazilian coast first. Alfonso de Albuquerque. He explored India, Madagascar, Ormuz. He clashed many times with Arab merchants, took Goa and Malacca. |
| RockyRusso | 03 Dec 2005 11:56 a.m. PST |
Hi Remember CC, that about 20% of the conquistadors were italian, and a similar ammount were from the lowlands! Rocky |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 12:36 p.m. PST |
RockyRusso is right about the english , dutch, french… The Portuguese were mostly… Portuguese. |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 12:45 p.m. PST |
Afonso de Albuquerque was one of the greatest men in the period. He faced the Turks and defeated them in a global policie around the west Indies. |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 12:51 p.m. PST |
Bartolomeu Dias a Portuguese navigator that around 1487-1488 crosses the southern part of rthe African Continent uniting for the first time the south Atlantic to the Indian Ocean. |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 12:55 p.m. PST |
Basileus, Technically they were two separate kingdoms with the same king(s) from 1580-1640. CC When you talk about Conquistadores you mean 16th century land expeditions, right? It's a bit difficult to name all but some I can give are: BRAZIL
João Ramalho (1562)
Martim Correia de Sá (1597)
Jerônimo Leitão (1579-1592)
Afonso Sardinha and João do Prado (1594-1599)
André de Leão (1601)
Nicolau Barreto (1602)
Belchior Dias Carneiro (1607)
Manuel Preto (1606) KONGO and ANGOLA
Francisco de Gouveia (1571-75)
Paulo Dias de Novais (1575-89)
Manuel Cerveira Pereira (1603-07) ABYSSINIA
Cristovão da Gama (1540-42) EAST AFRICA and ZIMBABWE
Francisco Barreto (1570-73)
Vasco Fernandes Homem (1573-77) INDIA, PEGU (BURMA), SIAM (THAILAND), JAVA…
Contless wars and expeditions All the info I have is in Portuguese,except Thornton's book. This lack of info in English makes me wanna right a couple of books on the subject. Maybe I'll make a career out of it. :) KC |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 1:14 p.m. PST |
Maybe you should learn portuguese. |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 2:05 p.m. PST |
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| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 2:11 p.m. PST |
Sorry fellas, Me no speak good Boston English. All the info I have is in Portuguese, except Thornton's book on West African Warfare 1500-1800. This lack of info in English makes me wanna WRITE a couple of books on the subject. Maybe I'll make a career out of it. 8o) Will be starting a Blog about Portuguese 16th century warfare and translating Portuguese texts to English so you can have a little info (the tiny tip of the iceberg). Cheers, KC |
| zippyfusenet | 03 Dec 2005 2:14 p.m. PST |
kingscarbine, I'll buy a copy of your book. Chris Peers has scouted this territory for wargamers. His articles in Wargames Illustrated include: Issue Title
38 "Christians and Spices" The Portuguese in the Indian Ocean, 1499-1602 Part One
39 "Christians and Spices" The Portuguese in the Indian Ocean, 1499-1602 Part Two
82 "Bandeira!" An Introduction to Warfare on the Brazilian Frontier, 16th to 18th Centuries
114 A Tupi Wargames Army |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 2:23 p.m. PST |
zippyfusenet, You're on. I sent a lot of info to Mark Copplestone (at his request), when he was designing the Conquistadores range for Foundry, with lots of feedback and suggestions. Maybe that info was passed to Chris Peers. Foundry thanked me with the 16th C. Americas book. I'm still waiting to see the result of my reaserch. Maybe good things come to those who wait. Hmmmm… Can you e-mail me those articles, please? Just curious… Cheers, KC |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 2:39 p.m. PST |
Don't forget about the Portuguese in Japan and China, and in this subject we have a english speeking publication: "Bulletin of Portuguese/Japanese Studies" published by the "New University of Lisbon" |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 2:46 p.m. PST |
CC Found this link in English about Francisco Barreto and some more:
link |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 2:48 p.m. PST |
Ataulfo, do you know Jorge Freitas? |
| basileus66 | 03 Dec 2005 2:58 p.m. PST |
Kingscarbine, Of course they were different kingdoms under the same king. That's why I used the term 'Spanish Empire' as it would include all the territories under the Spanish Habsburgs. You must concede that it would have been specious on my part to quote every title of Philip II! (Kign of Castilia, King of Navarre, King of Portugal, King of Two Sicilies, King of Aragon, Count of Barcelona, Lord of Biscay…) 'Spanish Empire' is only a convenient label. By the way, you are forgetting two of the most impressive Portuguese explorers: Magalhaes and Vasco da Gama. Regards |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 3:30 p.m. PST |
B, Hmmmmm…. This could lead to a hot debate. Regarding the explorers, I'm focusing on the less known land conquests and expeditions. If I included all the oceanic explorers the list would be much longer. Saludos |
| ataulfo | 03 Dec 2005 3:34 p.m. PST |
Kingscarbine: I know Jorge de Freitas Branco from ISCTE… |
| kingscarbine | 03 Dec 2005 4:04 p.m. PST |
Ataulfo, Jorge Freitas is an historian and I think he made is theasis, about the Portuguese army during the late 16th and 17th centuries, at the "New University of Lisbon" with Vitor Rodrigues, an expert on the Portuguese in Morocco. |
| Cacique Caribe | 03 Dec 2005 7:30 p.m. PST |
B/K, Once again, you guys have opened my mind to more that was taught in school. Of course, there is still one hotly debated point. Who discovered Brazil, Cabral (April 13, 1500) or Pinzon (January 26, 1500): link
link Just kidding guys. No need to argue about it. The Spanish will always say the Spaniard and the Portuguese will always say the Portuguese. CC |
| Quebecnordiques | 03 Dec 2005 8:13 p.m. PST |
RockyRusso said "20% of the Conquistadores were Italian". Hugh Thomas's impressive work on The Conquistadores certainly does not mention that amount of Italians in Spanish expeditions. Could you please state sources for cross referencing, just out of curiousity… |
| zippyfusenet | 03 Dec 2005 11:45 p.m. PST |
kingscarbine, send me your email address. I am zippy-at-fuse-dot-net. |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 Dec 2005 1:56 a.m. PST |
I think that Thomas' work (Who's Who of the Conquistadores) only covers 1519-1521: link Can it be considered representative of all the other expeditions? Or am I thinking of the wrong book? In either case, when I get back home I am going to take a second look. CC |
| kingscarbine | 04 Dec 2005 2:28 a.m. PST |
Basileus, I'm a strong supporter of an Iberian Federation, but I don't think you would want us now. ;) Like my father says "Iberian yes, Spanish no!" |
| Cacique Caribe | 04 Dec 2005 5:54 p.m. PST |
As an outsider, I wonder what is in store for "Iberia" or "Hispania"? Is nationalism or ethnicity (Gallegos, Vascos, Catalanes, etc.) going to tear it appart or are we looking forward to a pattern of consolidation? Not trying to stir trouble, just wanting to know what the general trends are . . . CC |
| basileus66 | 05 Dec 2005 3:58 a.m. PST |
CC: That would lead to a CA discussion… And a hotly debated too! Personally I think that Spain is in a artificially opened debate promoted by political interests that want to be hand free locally. Excepted some radicals, the rest want to depende the less possible from Central Government in order to make businness without interference in their regions. Thus Catalonian and Basque politicians are fighting more for the share of money they can manage than for the State they longed for. In this moment they (the nationalists parties) have a very good hand, because the Government depends on them to govern -they have not absolute majority in the Parlament-. And they are playing hard. However they are risking that if they press too hard, the Government would convoque new elections too break the deadlock. That would open new possibilities and pacts… Regards,
Antonio |
| Quebecnordiques | 06 Dec 2005 6:46 a.m. PST |
Hello all.
First of all an answer to Cacique Caribe. Yes you are right, the book mentioned does cover Cortés's expedition to Mexico though, if I remember correctly it does branch out into other later expeditions in which Sandoval and Alvarado took part. The thing is,in Pizarro's Peruvian campaign and in Lope de Aguirre's expedition there were very few none-Spanish soldiers. Of course there were more expeditions, and I am sure that RockyRusso has used sources that underline his assertion, but I do not know of any… Basileus66 is right in what he is saying. The Spanish political scene is one of absolute megolomania. This reminds me a lot of the situation in Canada where politicians are the culprits of so many problems based on identity and similar romanticist drivel which in the end is used for the sole purpose of exclusion. I am in the field of education and I am a trained historian and the history that is taught in some autonomic communities is absolutely disgraceful. What I wonder is why it simply is not openly discussed among the intellectual elite. I mean as an example, from what I know the autonomous community of Galicia are teaching their children that the Kigdom of Galicia was a political entity during the whole of the Mddle Ages, thus the Kingdom of León did not exist, and that León was exclusively the political capital of the Galician kingdom….I don't know if anybody out there can confirm this nut it is totally fabricated stuff! Galicia was a kingdom during 12 years and always as an offshot of the Leonese kingdom where one of the king's sons would hold that post which was in fact a type of Viceroy post. The problem is the Galician nationalists seem to think the Roman province of Gallaecia is modern day Galicia, so those Portuguese members of this forum wil eventually have to hear that Portugal is also part of the Galician kingdom….would you believe it! Where are we heading towards? |
| kingscarbine | 07 Dec 2005 1:54 p.m. PST |
Yes, the first Portuguese kings always looked at Galicia as a part of the emerging national territory. If fact the early major military efforts of Afonso Henriques were towards Galicia and not al-Andalus. Thus the bitter conflict that piched Portugal against Leon during the 12th and 13th centuries. But what I find intriguing today is the fact that many Galicians openly regard Portugal as a continuation of Galicia and vice-versa and are more ethnicaly linked to Northern Portugal than to Spain. I think this is a major problem in many European countries, not only in the Peninsula, that needs to be seriously debated if we want a truely united Europe. |
| Quebecnordiques | 08 Dec 2005 8:29 a.m. PST |
Kingscarbine…if ever you come across them, just read the school textbooks in Galicia and be prepared to be very surprised. Just go for a drink with a Galician who has "studied" history in magazines and newspapers and be prepare to be freaked out! Man, how you can change a whole people's way of thinking in one generation is something that frightens me… At this rate, you'll be reading in two generations that General Franco and Fraga Iribarne were not exactly Galicians….oh no, real Galicians didn't feel Spanish and they were preparing themselves for the liberation of the homeland from state oppression…;-) |
| Quebecnordiques | 09 Dec 2005 5:23 p.m. PST |
El BNG propone anexionar a Galicia localidades vecinas de Asturias y Castilla y León
A perfect example…just out today…. Propuesta nacionalista de reforma del Estatuto
09-12-2005 AGENCIAS
El BNG entregó hoy a los grupos parlamentarios su propuesta de reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía, que propone que Galicia sea una "nación" y que abre las puertas a la anexión de ayuntamientos "limítrofes", "mediante procesos democráticos que serán regulados por ley".
"Galicia es una nación", reza el documento nacionalista, una realidad que considera explicitada en un hecho histórico, lingûístico, cultural, socioeconómico y político de "amplia raigambre y singularidad". El proyecto incluye una disposición transitoria en la que plantea que las localidades vecinas de Asturias o Castilla León, que tengan características "culturales, históricas, económicas y geográficas análogas", puedan incorporarse a Galicia, siempre mediante fórmulas legales.
Would they be as willing to let any areas within Galicia to join the province of León or Asturias or the country of Portugal? How can they see this irresponsible rubbish and get away with it? This is the current state of Spanish politics…where Romanticism and Legends take over level headedness and social responsability. Totally disgusted…
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