"French vs Germans in Tunisia 1943" Topic

New scenario and AAR posted over on the blog:
link

Nice report and great figs – thanks for sharing!

Indeed, very creative and imaginative. I've never seen reference to this campaign. ditto to the beautiful figures.

A WW2 scenario you don't see much of. Thanks for the AAR!

Cheers guys, comments much appreciated :)

Looks really good! I do actually have 'French for Tunisia' somewhere on my shopping list, so might make use of this one.

Fascinating. The fall of Tunis I thought meant "peace in our time" on the North African Coast. Then to see the 12 RCA Somuas in action like this. I thought they were stood down by this stage and ready to move to the UK to form the 2eme DB under Leclerc. French in Tunisia of course, but I had never known this late on. Not well documented in the English literature.

I showed a Heller Somua in 12 RCA markings here, but thought they were all obsolete by the fall of Tunis

I do actually have "French for Tunisia" in my ready forces box, but have not managed to assemble a game that is as on-target as this one appears to have been.

For me, this would have checked all of the boxes for a very well done game:
- Well constructed scenarios to stimulate the history-buff in me
- Unique challenges and capabilities for each side to engage my competitive nature
- A chance to play with some very nicely done up, and probably less-often used toys, to satisfy my inner child (I mean, that's why I love miniatures more than board games … am I right?)

Oh, and the AAR is a treat to read.

Thanks for posting it!

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Then to see the 12 RCA Somuas in action like this. I thought they were stood down by this stage …

The Somuas were not stood down. They served as long as they were in working order. Or so I recall from my readings.

I can recall several years back reading a first-hand account (in French … never saw a translation) of the very last engagement of the S-35s in Tunisia, in which the last two working tanks were destroyed as they crossed a valley by Pz IVg's ("Mk 4 Specials") in the waning days of the campaign, after the fall of Tunis (as described in this scenario).

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

p.s.
I have also seen pictures of S-35s on the streets of Bizerte enjoying the liberation festivities, but as this scenario suggests, the fighting did not end immediately upon the capture of these two final strategic objectives.

To quote from Wikipedia:

Six days after the fall of Tunis and Bizerte, the last Axis resistance in Africa ended with the surrender of over 230,000 Germans and Italians who became prisoners of war (POWs).[83] Major General Lucian Truscott, commander of the US 3rd Infantry Division and Major General Ernest N. Harmon, commander of the US 1st Armored Division, reported that German resistance in the American sector ceased on 6 May …. On 8 May, the 334th Division surrendered to the British forces between Mateur and Tebourba.[85] … on 9 May, the US II Corps, under Major General Omar Bradley, cornered … what remained of the 5th Panzer Army, which surrendered before noon. … Around 22,000 Germans in the mountainous Zaghouan sector also ceased fighting on 11 May and surrendered with their equipment to the Free French.

Thank you guys, comments much appreciated.

Deadhead Groupe Blinde sud Tunisiene were a very mixed formation made up of whatever armoured equipment the French had. 12 RCA supplied their Somuas, 9RCA had a squadron of 6 GMC 75 SP and 5RCA had recce elements and also a squadron of Valentine IIIs supplied by the Brits.

Mark – I wrote this game to field toys just as you say – I`m glad you enjoyed it :)

Always great to see one of your AARs Richard!

It appears my earlier readings on the end of the S35's tenure in the French forces in North Africa was either incorrect information or an incorrect reading of the original materials I found so many years ago.

In reviewing several of the references I can find on the S35 in Tunisia, I have concluded that S35 tanks did indeed survive to the end of the Tunisian campaign.

As I now read it, the company of S35s in the 12th Chasseurs (12 RCA) were located in Morocco in 1942, although they do not appear to have been involved in any combat against US Army forces during Torch. They were transferred to Tunisia in February of 1943, taking part in operations around Gafsa and Cape Bon. They did engage Pz IVg's in that timeframe, with poor results for the French. But the unit, while losing some S35s, did not lose them all. They took part in the victory celebrations in Tunis / Bizerte.

I can not find any reference explicitly addressing whether they did, or did not, take part in the actions in the Zaghouan region (actual fighting did take place there, but I can not confirm if S35s were used). They were handed in by their crews as their unit was re-equipped with M4 Shermans after the end of hostilities in Tunisia. Those crews removed the Somua nameplaces from their still operable S35 tanks and afixed them to the front slopes of their M4s. These are visible in several pictures of Sherman tanks in LeClerc's 2e Division Blindee in France in 1944/45.

It may be that the narrative I saw, so many years ago, was referring only to those S35s that made the long road march from Chad north to Tunisia, rather than referring to all S35s in Tunisia (including those from Morocco). The crews of those particular S35s did not re-equip with M4s as the 12 RCA did, but with M10s. So perhaps I red the original story correctly, but without the full context. Or maybe I just read it wrong. It was a long time ago, and I don't know how to find it again.

In any case, still an enjoyable AAR of a plausible scenario.

Or so I think …

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

According to Sicard & Vauvillier`s Chasseurs d`Afrique, ISBN 9782908182873 S-35s of Groupe Blinde sud Tunisiene took part in the advance into Zaghouan.

S-35s of Groupe Blinde sud Tunisiene took part in the advance into Zaghouan.

Cool. Love to learn new tidbits like this. Thanks for the info. And for the link to a book I might want to dig up (if/as possible).

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

5RCA had recce elements and also a squadron of Valentine IIIs supplied by the Brits.

BTW -- in case anyone is interested -- it is my understanding that those were Valentine Vs, not IIIs. They should be visually and functionally indistinguishable, so when selecting miniatures and stats for wargaming it does not make a difference. But the historians among us may want to understand this particular detail.

The Valentine III was UK-built, using the Leyland diesel engine. Valentine V was pretty much the same tank built in Canada. But it used a GM diesel engine and drivetrain. Reputed to be quieter, and a bit more reliable. But otherwise functionally identical.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

The Valentines where given to the French by 6th Army so almost certainly weren`t the Canadian built Mk Vs most which went to Russia, but just bog standard British built Mk IIIs. Sicard and Vauvillier do talk about them, but my book is in Spain, so I can`t access it at the moment to double check.

From my notes – 3rd escadron du 5RCA (Chasseurs d`Afrique) were equipped with Valentine III tanks (maybe 20 tanks) – 5RCA were given these by the British to replace their worn out old D1s.

Well now I am at risk of learning even more about the French armor in action in Tunisia … so into the fray!

As to the question of whether the French had Valentine IIIs or Vs:

I have seen a variety of sources which describe the French Valentines as IIIs, and others which describe them as as Vs. Most of the pictures of the tanks in service, though, seem to label them as the V.

Some examples:
link

link

I will start by observing that there are no obvious points of visual recognition to distinguish between the two versions we are discussing. They are externally visually identical in all information I have seen so far.

I do not for a moment suggest that someone posting a picture is necessarily the perfect source on such details as the version of a tank. So I consider this not as proof, but just as points of evidence that may be re-enforced or contradicted by other evidence.

I will give credit to the lineage of the Valentines in French service as being hand-offs from British units. The British forces had several versions of the Valentine in service by this point. But if they didn't have Vs, or the specific units that turned their Valentines over to the French didn't have Vs, that is certainly persuasive.

I find it reasonably likely that references to the specific version of the Valentine may be misstated in historical documents and/or secondary source writings.
- The Valentine was the Infantry Tank Mk. 3. So ALL Valentines were 3s. The Brits seem to have tried to minimize this by their style of writing -- ie: Infantry Tank Mk.3 Valentine III or Infantry Tank Mk.3 Valentine V. But confusion or misstatement / misinterpretation is possible.
- The Valentines went to the 5RCA. So IIIs to 5RCA is another source of potential confusion or misstatement.

So I am open to being convinced of my error on this issue. To me I care not if it is one or the other, only hoping that I can walk away with better confidence in whichever version it is.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Mark, I don`t claim to be an expert, like I posted earlier I`m in wales and my books are in Spain :)

I`ll double chack when I get back – but this won`t be until mid March :(

Further digging has revealed 17th/21st Lancers (part of 26th Tank Brigade) 6th Armd Division swapped what Valentines they had left after Kasserine in exchange for Shermans. These tanks were all Valentine IIIs seems logical that these were the tanks given to the French no?? :)