"Russia uses de-nuked ICBM MIRVs on Ukraine" Topic

So…evidently Russia just peppered Dnipro with unarmed MIRVS from a single ICBM in response to US ATACMS launches into Russia. Are we having fun yet?

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A sign of weakness. Who do they try to scare? If they fired a ICBM, so what. Russia tries to show strenght but only shows how scared they are. They know they are losing the war and tries bluffing.

Clobber Russia good. Oust them from Ukraine and let them rot in their homecountry.

The big question is whether or not the MIRVs hit their intended targets. Just how accurate was the ICBM. Seems a bit expensive/excessive to use an ICBM.

MIRVS usually carry nukes so in terms of accuracy within a few hundred yards is good enough I guess.

They must be getting short of stuff to chuck – bricks next?

A sign of weakness. Who do they try to scare? If they fired a ICBM, so what. Russia tries to show strenght but only shows how scared they are.

Seriously?!? THAT's what you get from this -- Russia sends a signal to the US after it launched missile strikes into Russia to STOP ESCALATING by firing an ICBM with kinetic warheads onto a Ukrainian city…and Russia is *scared*?

Seems a bit expensive/excessive to use an ICBM.

Yes it does -- but NOTHING seems to breakthrough the single-minded determination for ever escalating war by the Warhawks.

They must be getting short of stuff to chuck – bricks next?

Oh sure -- lets ignore the warning to the US to stop the escalation and mock Russia. I guess if it uses tacnukes to vaporize a Ukrainian position you'll say, "HAH – losers, all they have left are little nukes. If they were really strong instead of weak losers they'd have used megatons, not kilotons."

The big question is whether or not the MIRVs hit their intended targets.

The Russian military does not generally seem to be too concerned about what exactly they are hitting with their strikes. If their goal is to bombard the whole Ukraine into ruins, the exact order they do it may not be crucial.

As for Russia having ICBMs, that is hardly news – Soviet Union had them already in the daus before I was born.

We are actually.

On the 1002nd day of 3 day special military operation, Russia launches a pathetic display to show the world that yes, they do indeed still have nukes.
If, we as western nations, let a country like Russia take over Ukraine just because we get a little scared of that fact, then what's stopping Russia from invading other nations? Georgia? Moldova? Maybe even Estonia?
Why, it's just Estonia after all. Who wants a nuclear holocaust for "just" Estonia, right? NATO or not, Russia has nukes after all.

Also US did not fire ATACMS, they gave Ukraine permission to finally strike at the positions that were shelling Ukraine for so long, which were unreachable with accurate US weapons. Something US should've done long time ago.

Russia has already invaded Georgia, Moldova, Chechnya, and Ukraine several times since Putin has been in charge. They make peace agreements and then a few years later invade again, directly or with proxies. Every time they invade they take a little bite of territory.
When those nations are gone who is next? Estonia? Poland?
Will the US go to war to protect Germany?
How about NATO spending the 2% they agreed to spend and do it right now, today? Continued weakness just brings more aggression.
Putin puts 12,000 North Koreans in the line and the West is supposed to do nothing? What would Putin do if 12,000 Canadian soldiers showed up in Kursk against Russia?

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Also US did not fire ATACMS, they gave Ukraine permission to finally strike at the positions that were shelling Ukraine for so long,

No. Ukraine doesn't have the crew training or whole battlefield awareness support to do this. Even if they let a Ukrainian push the button, the ATACAMS are crewed by US Army personnel, AND must be targeted and guided by US Intel and Satellite assets.

I think y'all are insane. As long as the Biden Admin and Europeans KEEP ESCALATING WAR rather than working for PEACE we will cross a line we may not even know exists and then will get really scary and painful really fast and the you're all gonna be like "oh noes, how could this have happened?!?"

SBminisguy. To me you are a vatnik, that is someone who spouts Russian propaganda. Someone who fully supports Russias illegal war against Ukraine.

The west does not "escalate" one bit. The only ones responsible for this war is Russia. Russia can end this war immediately by just leaving Ukraine.

But Russia is masters at bullying and playing victim at the same time AND blaming the victim for its (Russias) aggression.

And the US has not fired anything at Russia and you know it.

Yes Russia is weak, Russia knows that they cannot attack "the west/NATO" as that would bring NATO into the war. So they try to scare the west by threatening with a "nuke attack". So a rather pathetic attempt at bullying.

Russia is losing the war, Russia knows they will lose more quickly the more western weapons are given to Ukraine to defend Ukraine against this aggression.

Russia will huff and puff and talk loud and tough but that is all they have. Bullying does not work if you are not afraid of the bully. And here the Russians fail. they have a pair of fives at best and that, in poker is not much.

No. Ukraine doesn't have the crew training or whole battlefield awareness support to do this. Even if they let a Ukrainian push the button, the ATACAMS are crewed by US Army personnel, AND must be targeted and guided by US Intel and Satellite assets.

You're telling me that the guys that have been shooting and crewing HIMARS in Ukraine were, in fact, Americans?

As long as Ukrainians want fight, we should provide them with supplies to fight.

Appeasement never fixed anything.

Yes, supposedly Putin was firing those cruise missiles and one ICBM in response to Biden allowing the Ukraine to fire ATACMS deeper into Russia. As usual the Biden admin was too late sending the Ukraine what they need. To defeat the Russians … That is one reason the war has lasted so long.

Which was in response to the North Koreans sending thousands of troops for Putin to use in Ukraine.

The ICBM was just letting everybody know he can launch nukes anytime he wants. As he wants all to know the next one won't be HE but nukes.

Biden on his way out wants to look strong for his legacy. Once again too little … too late. And maybe make things harder for Trump … Nothing would surprise me …

You're telling me that the guys that have been shooting and crewing HIMARS in Ukraine were, in fact, Americans?

Highly unlikely … Just like with the story the M1 MBT was too hard for Ukraine's tank and maintenance crews to learn how to use it, etc. Kids from the USA are trained to use M1s, ATACMS, etc. in a matter of a few months. F-16s, may take a little longer etc.

Appeasement never fixed anything.

Yeah … Biden, Blinken, Sullivan et al must have missed the day the subject was Chamberlin just before the Germans invade France in 1940.

"KEEP ESCALATING WAR rather than working for PEACE"

You mean surrender and encourage your little fascist hero to invade somewhere else on trumped up charges in his bid to rebuild the soviet empire. Only one person escalated this war and that is spewtin. Strange you do not complain about NOK troops escalating the war.

As for crewing, as per normal you are wrong, the crews have all been trained, and are Ukrainian. Some of us know people involved and some hear what they want to hear.

Tally Ho!

How does supplying Israel and enabling its survival, differ from supplying Ukraine and enabling its survival?

"As usual the Biden admin was too late sending the Ukraine what they need"
You keep saying things along these lines. SBminisguy is right in that 'at some point' escalation will spiral out of control.The rapidity with which weapons are supplied can be a factor. It's a fine tightrope.
I want the Russians out and the Ukrainians to be supplied, but just shovelling stuff at them would probably have dire consequences.

I've read the posts in TMP, disparaging Putin (He deserves it, obviously). But… you have said he is everything…… but sane.

In the US we have a President who is deeply into either dementia, Alzheimer's or both.

But many are telling us that escalation will not spiral out of control. You do realize that if Putin is as you say and we know Biden's not in control of all his faculties, you cannot guarantee this will not spiral and we are playing with matches in a room full of gasoline.

So is Putin sane? Can we count on him to not to light a match? Biden?

Also not one person has ever answered: How does the Ukraine win, driving Russia out completely? Please I'm looking for a logical explanation, not an emotional one.

At best, I see them losing more territory.

We can all throw weapons until the cows come home and it will just prolong it. There are just so many military age Ukrainians and there are more Russians, North Koreans and other "allies".

Are there European " Abraham Lincoln" brigades coming to the Ukraine's aid. Are some of you on TMP going over to fight?

There are about 4 or 5 to 1 Russians to Ukrainians. Not counting Russian allies.

What am I missing that will bring that decisive Ukrainian victory?

but just shovelling stuff at them would probably have dire consequences.

Thankfully for Russia, her allies are not concerned with such things as escalation as much as the West.

Like yes, it could spiral out of control, but then, how can you stop Russia? How can Ukrainians destroy the artillery that fires FROM Russia's border and at their civillian infrastructure?

And can nuclear wielding country just infinitely invade everyone who doesn't have a nuke, because doing anything that might turn the favor against them might cause nuclear holocaust?

What am I missing that will bring that decisive Ukrainian victory?

Attrition. Russia simply cannot keep using equipment at the current rate. Satellites show that their storeyards are emptying.

Economic collapse. There are signs that the Russian economy is in serious trouble.

Mutiny? The Russian army did it in WWI, and they are in much worse shape today…

SBminisguy. To me you are a vatnik, that is someone who spouts Russian propaganda. Someone who fully supports Russias illegal war against Ukraine.

To me you are a jingostic fool lost in fuzzy weapons videos.

I do not support Russia's war against Ukraine, but I also do not support escalation to WW3.

This war has never been conventionally winnable -- Ukraine wins by surviving, and under ceasefire conditions the US and NATO would turn the border into a DMZ with layered defenses making it incredibly difficult to aggress further. But we don't have that -- Ukraine is like a punch-drunk boxer taking wild swings to somehow win the fight even as he loses momentum.

Since most of what we read about this war is somebody's propaganda, we don't know how much staying power Ukraine has left before it collapses -- but we do know the longer this war of attrition drags on, the more likely Ukraine *will* collapse despite your jingoistic enthusiasm leaving Putin with literally no reason to negotiate anything. So your whole "in it to win it" mentality of escalation and prolonged war to prevent the fall of Ukraine all but guarantees it will fall

"KEEP ESCALATING WAR rather than working for PEACE"

You mean surrender and encourage your little fascist hero

No. I mean let's not blow of the world, eh? Like, do you even think before throwing out insults?

Putin realized he'd screwed up and was negotiating a settlement in March of 2022 when Biden killed the deal. This would have ended the war before it escalated and seen Russian troops pulled back to the pre-invasion start line.

WHY DID THE US AND NATO FORCE THE WAR TO CONTINUE IN 2022?

Answer me that!!!!

We've gone over 'that' a number of times here. If not agreeing to ridiculous terms that effectively forced a surrender on Ukraine, painted as the aggressor by Russia, is the US and Nato forcing the war to continue, well, ok.

"Attrition. Russia simply cannot keep using equipment at the current rate. Satellites show that their storeyards are emptying.

Economic collapse. There are signs that the Russian economy is in serious trouble.

Mutiny? The Russian army did it in WWI, and they are in much worse shape today…"

Thanks for answering.

I think all of those are what people have been hoping for.

I'm just not convinced it will happen.

Russia took almost 6 million casualties in WW1 before the Army mutinied.

"With about 5.5 million out of 16 million soldiers killed and wounded, the Russian Empire "

We know WW2 was worse for them.

We are nowhere near that in the Ukraine. According to the few on TMP and the Russian media, the Russian population is not really suffering and protests there are small so far.

They have China, North Korea and a few other countries sending them weapons and Russian industry is on a war footing.

We are bleeding our own military weapons and new ones cost us even more to replace.

Russia is only busy in the Ukraine. The US is busy in the ME and Asia as well.

In the long term, I believe this will have an effect on the Russian economy, but not quick enough to affect Putin in the short term.

But look at us, 36 trillion in debt and climbing. 😔

"Seems a bit expensive/excessive to use an ICBM."

Not if you are pulling one out of inventory to make sure (most of) your others will work. Just a test launch, no need to arm it with a nuke. But not everybody else in the world who monitored the launch knew that. Bet a lot of butts puckered up when that ICBM was in flight.
Putin played "nice" with that escalation. It was a WARNING. You won't get many more…

Putin ain't Hitler. He isn't good but if you think he's Hitler you need to read a history book. I oppose the invasion. I support arming Ukraine. I also know that if you back a bad guy with a gun into a corner he's going to use it. But Putin is a bad guy in a corner with nukes. To avoid the apocalypse giving him an escape route where he saves face and no nukes go off is the most realistic of the not awful options. Would love to see him defeated but he will launch nukes before that point.

smithsco

Do we just do another Obama and just forgive Putin for everything he did, let him keep whatever he wants and hope that he doesn't invade again once he gets that itch?

What message would that send to China and Taiwan?

Can countries with nukes just infinitely invade other countries without nukes?

These were tests of a new Russian medium-range ballistic hypersonic missile with a multiple warhead. The missile was equipped with non-nuclear warheads. The target was a military plant, the largest in Ukraine. According to unconfirmed reports from Dnepr, the plant was completely destroyed. But we're waiting for satellite images to know for sure.

NATO's eastward expansion and another "color revolution" in Ukraine was a bad idea. Many thinkers in the West warned that this was the path to the Third World War, but no one wanted to listen to them…

Ukraine's prospects are pitiful even in the event of victory, which is impossible. It has already suffered a demographic catastrophe – it has lost half (!) of its pre-war population. People who left the country and lived abroad for several years will most likely not return. Especially considering that a destroyed country offers little prospect for a normal life.

This is what the impact of this missile looked like, in fact, the photo does not convey all the information:

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By the way, Dnepr is one of the largest cities in Ukraine and is protected by Western air defense systems, including the Patriot. This time they were powerless)))

Well Putin is saying Russia will attack any nation that is supporting Ukraine. More posturing, taking smack from someone who has no cards left but the ICBM card …

I do believe the current admin and Dems are making moves to make it more difficult for Trump. E.g. Giving the go for ATACMS to hit deep inside Russia. Actually, I have no problem with that. But like everything else this current admin does it is too little too late. But now they are doing a scorched Earth campaign. Like still flying it illegal aliens into the US.

So much for caring about "we the people" …

And just for the record again, Putin/Russia is the aggressor. They attacked Ukraine for no other reason that imperialism. Not to stop NATO expansion to the East. Which if Putin was playing that card, he was wrong again. I.e. Finland and Sweden joined NATO out of concern for Putin's imperialism.

Oh and I almost forgot Putin was going into the Ukraine to hunt Nazis … In reality I don't think the small numbers of Nazis was a threat to anyone. Even so they alone are too small a force to really do anything on their own. But Putin was just looking for another excuse …

Full text of Putin's statement on the response to the use of Western missiles to attack targets in Russia:

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By the way, Ukraine has its own missiles that can attack at a distance of up to 500 kilometers – this is a modified "Neptune" missile for strikes on ground targets, which they have already used before. But their goal is to draw NATO into a war against Russia… What a passionate love Ukraine and the West have for each other. Each is willing to sacrifice the other to achieve their goals)))

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Even though the Ukrainians are transporting, deploying, and firing ATACMs, it may as well be the U.S. doing it. They use M-Code GPS guidance, which is heavily encrypted and uses specialized satellites, none of which Ukraine has and/or could do on their own. So, yes, Putin is right that NATO countries are basically involved (who provides AEW info to the Ukrainian Air Force?), but he can't at the same time be attacking a country, then be upset when others race to protect it. However, this is an interesting escalation and hopefully it's just posturing before an enforced peace which is going to happen in January.

Here is Russia's problem: City name, Federal grouping, population:

1. Moscow, Central 13.0M
2. Petersburg, Northwest 5.6M
---
3. Novosibirsk, Siberia 1.6M
4. Yekaterinburg, Ural 1.5M
5. Kazan, Tatarstan 1.3M
6. Nizhny Novgorod, Volga 1.2M
7. Chelyabinsk, Ural 1.2M
8. Krasnoyarsk, Siberia 1.2M
9. Samara, Volga 1.2M
10. Ufa, Volga 1.1M
11. Rostov na Don, South 1.1M
12. Omsk, Siberia 1.1M
---
13. Krasnodar, South 1M
14. Voronezh, Central 1M
15. Perm, Volga 1M
16. Volgograd, South 1M
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17. Saratov, Volga 900K

Source: Wiki – Russian City Populations

The distribution is a nice fit to the Pareto principle (80:20) excepting that Moscow and Petersburg are the main events. NB #17 Saratov and following – size of large UK towns.

The RAF were/are tasked with Petersburg, any number of US, British/French/Chinese nukes are tasked with Moscow.

The loss of those two cities with almost 19M inhabitants would probably fatally disrupt the Russian State (160M) into collapse.

Contrast with the cities of NATO – Yurp, US, and Canada:

Istanbul, Turkey 15.7M
London, UK 8.9M
Berlin, Germany 3.8M
Madrid, Espana 3.8M
Kyiv, Ukraine 2.9M
Roma, Italy, 2.8M
Paris, France 2.1M
Vienna, Austria 2.0M
Hamburg, Germany 1.9M
Warsaw, Poland 1.9M
Bucharest, Romania 1.7M
Budapest, Ungarn 1.7M
Barcelona, Espana 1.7M
Munich, Germany 1.5M
Kharkiv, Ukraine 1.4M
Praha, Czechia 1.4M
Milano, Italy 1.4M
Sofia, Bulgaria 1.3M
Birmingham, UK 1.2M
Koeln, Germany 1.1M
Odessa, Ukraine 1.0M

Source: Wiki – Yurpeen City population

New York, NY 8.3M
Los Angeles, CA 3.8M
Chicago, IL 2.7M
Houston, TX 2.3M
Phoenix, AZ 1.7M
Philadelphia, PA 1.6M
San Antonio, TX 1.5M
San Diego, CA 1.4M
Dallas, Tx 1.3M
---
Jacksonville, FL 985K

Source: Wiki – Murcan City Population

Canada city populations:

Toronto, Ontario 5.6M
Montreal, Quebec 3.7M
Vancouver, BC 2.4M
Calgary, Alberta 1.3M
Edmonton, Alberta 1.2M
Ottawa, Ontario 1.1M
---
Winnipeg, Manitoba 760K

Source: Wiki – Canouk population

No problem. Remember Hurricane Katrina? After a Russian nuclear strike, the West may not perish. Immediately. But it will definitely turn into chaos, where people will kill each other… You brought your own death to yourselves – gangs of migrants, to whom everything civil and national is alien, will finish what was started by missiles. And China, India and many others will watch with interest…
Do you think it is worth playing such a game? It's up to you… And the Russians (as well as the Ukrainians, by the way) can easily go all the way – we are fatalists))) Everything is God's will, not people's.

@mrkillerovsky

Last number I saw was 600,000 Russians' are KIA. We didn't let him off. He thought he was going to roll over Ukraine. He didn't. Thinking Ukraine can achieve total victory is a foolish. Russia only gaining a few territories while suffering major loses is inflicting a defeat.

Soon Ukraine will start running out of troops. That is when the west will wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory. His mission was seize a large portion of Ukraine (potentially the whole coast) and removed the Zelensky government. If we force him to the peace table he will have failed. Inflicting humiliation on him and shattering his army sounds like victory to me. Especially in Russian culture. When your strong man couldn't beat Ukraine he isn't a strong man.

smithsco, Russia has already won. The unipolar world has been destroyed irrevocably, Russia is again among the world's leaders, the neoliberal agenda has been discarded. Now there is a war only for the conditions under which this victory will be formalized. Some kind of defeat for Russia will only be Ukraine's entry into NATO (now or in the future). The war will continue until such a possibility is removed from the agenda.

It's incremental escalation. Where you match aggression tit for yet. But never escalate by more than 5%.
That never ends a war. It only "shows resolve". 🙄
That's code for "It would not be Diplomatic to try to win the War. So let's just get thousands killed but show restraint."
That has never worked, so let's try it again!
All it does is prolong the agony, and get thousands of civilians killed.

It's pointless to use those weapons now, when they have been available for how long?

Residents of the Kazakh city of Satpayev watch the launch of a Russian missile, Oreshnik, which attacked a plant in Ukraine. November 21, 2024.

vk.com/video217120241_456280828

John the OFM, this is how all world wars begin… Escalation, sooner or later, leads to fatal consequences. If someone does not surrender earlier…

Everything could have been stopped back in 2014, preventing a violent change of power in Ukraine. Yanukovych could have been easily re-elected a year later, and the same Poroshenko could have been elected instead.
But then how to start a war to "contain" Russia? And the residents of South-East Ukraine would not have allowed it to join NATO then…

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"NATO's eastward expansion"
That makes it sound like conquest.
NATO nations ask to join and are voted in by the existing members. Moldova, Chechnya, Georgia, and Ukraine don't want to be part of Russia. But Putin keeps nibbling off bits of them at every opportunity, until like Chechnya they are completely absorbed into Russia and used to fight Russia's war in Ukraine.
The war would end tomorrow if Putin went back home to Russia.
John the OFM is right the West gives just enough aid to keep the war going but not enough to win. Just like Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan.
Perhaps in June 1944 we should have just continued to let the sanctions work against Germany, or maybe if we stopped supplying the Russians the war could have ended and Hitler could have kept Western Europe to achieve peace.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek

Imagine that Russia is so weak it needs to be rescued by the US! Russia wants to hold out until Trump takes office and hope he Will broker a peacedeal.

"Strong" and "mighty" Russia so scared of NATO and "the west" hoping that its "archenemy" will save them.

Anyway. The Ukrainians were warned days ago that this ICBM (or whatever it is) was being prepared. It has nothing to do with the use of western weaponry against Russia.

Regardless this threat wont work. If Russia wants to play hardball deliver a nuke. Now you are just a mentalt weak and scared bully.

link

"Everything could have been stopped back in 2014, preventing a violent change of power in Ukraine. Yanukovych could have been easily re-elected a year later, and the same Poroshenko could have been elected instead"

Really, by telling the Ukrainians to accept the elections that the Russians altered in their favour? Everything could have been stopped if the ruscum had minded their own business, understood that no one wanted to invade their backward dictatorship and just carried on normal jogging.

As for NATO, NATO does not try to expand east, but former Soviet countries want to join to ensure their independence from the ruscum, without NATO membership the B3 would have been invaded years ago because the had some Ruscum living there.

The only country that threatens world peace is russia in its feeble attempt to rebuild a new soviet union,
Tally Ho!

Tally Ho!

"WHY DID THE US AND NATO FORCE THE WAR TO CONTINUE IN 2022?"

Only a paranoid numpty could believe that, the Ukraine is a sovereign nation, we have helped it defend itself against a fascist invasion.

If the little dictator starts shouting about attacking other countries do we just give in? Some people, SB, in the case of a house invasion will bend over and accept it, some of us would prefer to defend our houses,

Tally Ho!

nickinsomerset elections in Ukraine were held three years before the coup, in two rounds, and with the presence of European observers from Europe))) No one except you can say that the elections were unfair)))

Yes, you destroyed Yugoslavia because you didn't want to interfere in someone else's country? Libya? Iraq? Hypocrites…

"destroyed Yugoslavia"

Odd way of framing stopping genocide.

If all pro-Z arguments were a person, I believe it would bear your name, Cuprum2.

Only thing you forgot to mention in this thread is how Soviets wanted to help Czechoslovakia in 1938.

People need to cool it down with all of the talk about the grouping of cities over a million as possible targets. Such pissing matches threatens human civilization as a whole. Hopefully, if we can hold out to January, the adults can resolve this mess. Probably a lot of people will be disappointed with the outcome on both (all) sides of the conflict -- but at least they will still be alive so that they can have the luxury of being disappointed.

Without Ukrainian clear victory nobody will still alive. On the contrary, more will be dead. Whole nations. There will be only pause before muscovites continue their agression after restoring their ammo.

@Kev

The wiki-derived city population figures are a bit shonky.

Figures would be better presented as conurbations/mega-cities instead.

Adults in January? The "team" may not be quite ready to roll at this level. But, assuming that Musk and Trump have already given Putin some indications of how this will roll, I would expect the war to come to a halt while they vie for the Nobel this coming year. Zelensky may be needing a condo somewhere other than the new mini- Ukraine. But the bloodshed will likely stop, IMO.

@mrk

Per Kev's cool-down suggestion:

Could we be a little less personal in our attacks on other posters?

Cuprum2's posts provide balance and insight. Only he/her knows if they're tooting the accepted party line, or not.

nickinsomerset 22 Nov 2024 1:18 a.m. PST
"WHY DID THE US AND NATO FORCE THE WAR TO CONTINUE IN 2022?"

Only a paranoid numpty could believe that, the Ukraine is a sovereign nation, we have helped it defend itself against a fascist invasion.

This is an inconvenient truth to you -- Ukraine and Russia were close to a peace deal negotiated with the help of Israel and Turkey. Biden killed it, pressured Zelensky to drop out of the peace talks. This is an OPTIONAL WAR chosen by the US and NATO. Why?

smithsco +1 – indeed, Ukraine wins by not being subjugated -- and as you point out we risk wrestling defeat from the jaws of victory.

"This is an inconvenient truth truth to you -- Ukraine and Russia were close to a peace deal negotiated with the help of Israel and Turkey. Biden killed it, pressured Zelensky to drop out of the peace talks."

Other muscovites trolls even say that Ukrainian capitulation was signed. But can't agree themselves, was it Biden or Johnson who ruined their glorious victory. Also no one was never seen such document, only Putin allegedly shows a piece of some paper from distance to somebody.