"Where are all the miniatures going?" Topic

Particularly GW, but perhaps wargames miniatures in general.

So, wargames got real big in the 90s.

The 70-80s saw SciFi and fantasy emerge and strengthen.

Historical had been around a while, but the 90s saw it became mainstream with hobby shops, toy shops, even LOTR in odd places by 2001.

So if you were 10-20 when you got into it, 70-2000, means your 44-64.

Now, my point…

Where are all the miniatures going?

Into people's collections.

What happens in 20-40 years when the people above fall off the perch?

Bust.

There must be a point that the amount of second hand minis on the market over supplies demand, killing sales of new minis, and thus the industry.

There was the comic boom and bust in the 80-90s, where millions were bought for investment, until people tried to sell them.

DvDs have a beyond saturated secondary market. But new films and TV keep new ones coming.

New minis may always be made, but why buy a new box of whatever, when there are a heap available second hand for sale at a fraction of the price?

Also remember, that many people never get around to opening packets, so a lot of the second hand product may be as new.

The wheels are going to fall off at some point.

You are operating under the assumption that people want to buy used miniatures-- and old miniatures -- instead of new miniatures, which I don't believe is correct.

Old miniatures can be an extremely hard sell. I bet a fair number of them end up in the trash, or are otherwise unused.

A fair number of gamers won't buy painted

figs, so they are not you audience unless you are selling for pennies on the dollar because they are going to strip the paint off whatever you sell them.

A lot of gamers like new and shiney. The sale of second hand estate sale figures isn't even going to be a discernable blip in new figure sales.

My 2 cents.

H Man, first you examine reality, and then you formulate a theory to explain it--not the other way around. I'm 72, surrounded by dead and nearly dead wargamers and their collections--working on my fifth set of collections in nine years--but it's doing no harm to Perry, Victrix or Old Glory, not even to mention GW.

The wheels have pretty well come off the USED figure market: they aren't usually sculpted or painted to current standard, the scales are not the current ones, basing is for old rules, many periods are shadows of their former glory, it's hard to fill gaps and--especially in the F&SF market--they aren't the official franchise of the rules set. Shop around, and you can buy painted 25-30mm figures for $1 USD each for infantry, which is about what you'd have paid in the 1980's. I'll be selling them at that price at next year's flea markets.

And people will walk right past me to buy new from dealers.

(By the way, hobby shops were stocking historicals by the early 1970's, and LOTR figures are a good 20-25 years earlier than you think. MINE are that old. How old are you?)

LOTR Minifigs, Custom Cast and Heritage were all around by the early 80's at the latest. Historicals were around from the 70's. I have no idea about what will happen. But I doubt that there won't be some folks who still want to buy. Several lines of old figs still hold a premium price today and are actively sought by buyers.

Thanks.

John

I buy for me, not for their value when I am dead – or even if I want to offload them. So not an issue for me.

I was talking about GW PJ LOTR. The 2001 date should have been a give away enough for people who know all about it.

And that's when GW really went mainstream. Not Gorka Morka after all.

GW already seem to change scale to try to make older figures obsolete, so it seems I'm on to something there.

Also interesting is the fact they rerelease WFB figures, even lefty skeleton bowmen, and are recasting many metal figures from decades ago.

Companies like airfix and other model kit manufacturers are rereleasing old kits frequently.

All these are popular secondary market items.

Prince August still sell their moulds from long ago.

So to say people don't want old figures is wrong.

Of course some are more liked then others.

A lot of sellers strip figures for sale. Another idea.

I'm not talking now, and what's selling now anyway. I'm talking the near future, when possibly peak collector's collections flood the market.

I've already seen shops with probably more second hand figures than new figures.

This will only get more common.

I can't see people throwing out miniatures, no more than anything else. It's more likely there will be a lot more donated to charity stores.

Apparently GW and 3d printing is "so good", I'm not sure they can get much "better".

Yet I still see new figures for sale and being sold that "aren't as good".

So, perceived personal quality has nothing to do with it.

More figures in, more figures out.

At some point it's possible that it will be less figures in, more figures out.

Like comics were at a point.

Whether that be total figures out, or just ones people want, or sealed boxes, or whatever necessities you care to apply.

PS we already see GW redoing LOTR (2000s) figures, Rohan warriors recently, even though the secondary market is flooded. So a simple ploy to try to get new sales, as opposed to people buying the older ones, which are exactly the same thing.

I can't see people throwing out their old Rohan's to buy the new ones, so newer figures rely on newer players.

It's feeling like a pyramid scheme.

It depends on the times and the figures though.

Just saw a GW game that had a short shelflife and now sells on EBay for £300.00 GBP+ (getting on for $400 USD).

Also saw some GW figures that a few years ago were near worthless – now selling for £30.00 GBP+ each (not for sale actually sold – as in "1 available, 4 sold").

All the non-GW stuff – probably going to be near worthless in 20 years time. The GW stuff? Who knows? Could go either way. Will I care when I'm dead….no.

I was talking about GW PJ LOTR. The 2001 date should have been a give away enough for people who know all about it.

But you posted to Napoleonics, and to 20mm, and WH40K boards, so not that obvious that you were talking about GW LOTR.

I think The Bug probably caused all of the cross-postings, but I could be wrong. But yes, the intention was not clear.

I think GW is a little different animal with planned obsolescence and all of the other GW nonsense. That said, there does not appear to be a shortage of people joining the "GW Hobby" and I imagine they feel (or actually are) compelled to buy the newest thing on the shelf.

The charity shops are mostly dumping "military toys" in landfills.

But GW has a serious player turnover rate, and sales of used stuff doesn't seem to be hurting them. You really think substantial numbers of the guys who gave up GW when they discovered girls (or a new edition invalidated their armies) will keep clinging to the old lead until they die or go into nursing homes?

Hey, grandpa … what's a DVD?

To answer the OP, I think they are all going here: link

I have a lot of customers who buy minis to paint them. I paint minis I'll never game with it. I also buy used, and use painting services.

Started my business in 1983 and just now winding down after 41 years selling miniatures, games and books. Never really stocked RPG systems, never any cards other than the Pirates of the Spanish Main. Never stocked GW after 1985. I am happy with my sales over the years. Never got into a must buy minimum contract which sinks most small stores in the end.

Disposing of old collections has been going on for years in a variety of ways. I have quite a few figures and vehicles from people who have died, equally I have thinned out my stuff so my kids don't have to the same thing. Funny how quickly things sell when you price them at 10% of current market value,but I don't care, I had my use of them and someone else can enjoy them. One of my pals ended up with a lot of Tony Baths Hyborian figures (flats). Just amazing to play a game with those, and I've got various bits from Phil Barker over the years and even something from Charles Grant.

Charity shops never know what to do with these things, and why would they? There are dealers here (UK) who buy job lots of old figures for resale, but I wonder if the 2nd hand market is different in more dispersed countries like the US or Australia.

Whether charity shop staff know what to do with wargame related items depends upon the individual volunteers who work there. Just like the stock, it's completely random.

I volunteer in the Swansea Cats & Kittens charity shop and have sometimes surprised the staff by the prices I have achieved for items such as Britains figures and boardgames whose value they did not appreciate.

OTOH, I am hopeless at valuing ladies' 'designer' handbags!

Where have all the miniatures gone, long time
passing?
When will they ever learn? H

Gone to landfills, every one, Ferd. But just this once, it needs to be "minis" to keep the beat.

We need to work on that, really. Minis go to gamers. Gamers go to rest homes. Then minis go to landfills, Maybe?

Arthur, the UK is always more gamer and miniature-friendly. Used to be a flea marketeer in the larger US conventions who picked up his stock from toy soldiers the thrift shops weren't allowed to sell. Then one year he told us they weren't even allowed to give them away any more. They may not all be in the same chain of command, but they all think alike. I hit maybe four or five brands of charity shops on a fairly regular basis, and haven't seen a toy soldier of any description (outside of Risk sets) in the last 10 years.

My kids plan to keep a handful of mine for mementos but the rest will probably end up in the trash. Anyone who might want them is in the dead or almost dead category (see above) as I am turning 74 soon.

rusty, please at least leave the kids the contact info for a club, dealer or local store. Too much stuff in landfills already, and the world is larger than our immediate circles.

Figures! Where have all the figures gone?

It's ironic that figures in a blister immediately lose value if they're taken out of the blister.
Even fully painted decent figures are worth less than "virgin" figures in a blister.
Considering that the bulk of my current Inventory of Shame are half painted, my son isn't left much of an inheritance.

From my recent collection sale, I found painted Perry and figures and vehicles for Bolt Action went very well, 1/72 WW2 and well painted older Hinchliffe were OK, but other figures, painted an unpainted, and books were rather indifferent.

Unmade model kits, Airfix 1/32 (in boxes) and Britains are solid performers.

What I do now generally goes on EvilBay when it's finished, but if it doesn't sell after a couple of weeks it's binned. Books go to Dorothy House.

To be honest while nearly as old as you lot (70) I care not. Minis will survive as the Kid get 3D printers that is the way. Hoping that you minis are an investment is just pie in the sky. Most shops in the UK have already gone (GW) counts not it arbores second hand they scrap them by changing the product line.

Minis will survive as 3D prints, lets face it metal is a poor product for scale models, new plastic are far more realistic and come the revolution we will have coloured minis. You old folk like me remember before colour printers, then 3 colour ribbon printers, I had one, then real colour printers, perhaps not in my life time but that is short now.

Lets face it I would not want anybody's old metal 12mm figures they are just old badly shaped, antiques, fine as antiques but you would not want to carry the weight around and play with them.

We still race cars but not ones made in 1950's except as antiques, which is not the same.

There speaks the moderns player, UshCha--and who on earth suggested that they were an investment?

But over in horse & musket, no one wants to paint 30,000 or 40,000 30mm figures again.

Oh. Back to H Man's original point. Note that only the people who bought comics as an investment lost their shirts. The people who paid for a comic new because they wanted to read it, filed it away and later decided to sell it still had the pleasure of the reading, and recouped part and sometimes all of the purchase price. It was the people who thought they were so smart they could buy a used $2.99 USD comic they didn't want to read for $10.00 USD and sell it later for a profit who lost their shirts--as such people almost always do. Tulip manias require a lot of tulip maniacs. Nothing new or surprising about that, and it certainly didn't depress the price of new comics.

robert piepenbrink – I have read at least one complaint that plastic (not neccessarily 3D prints) were droping the value of his collection. Me I expect when I go most of my stuff will be binned after the local clubs have had there pic for a donation to the Lifeboats.

It will cost a fortune to dispose of 40 ooo figures that sounds like a 10 ton skip.

I've made some decent sales on eBay when pruning the collection and there's still a lot of interest in second hand if you don't like painting. But while it was a lot better than binning them no way was it an investment. Personally I prefer to get brand new models . There's a good market for both preferences and from the magazines and websites I see no evidence of new products being squashed by second hand castoffs

Missing the point, UshCha. The painting of 28/30mm horse & musket miniatures is not the same as cranking out 10 or 12mm moderns. Any heirs who tossed these would forfeit serious money.

Even if they were that crazy, they'd go to a scrap metal dealer and come out somewhat ahead.

There are always fishing weights as a now deceased fisherman friend suggested many years ago when presented with my hobby.

3-D Plastics are still nowhere near the quality of the best metal castings in my opinion (and I've been a buyer and gamer since the 70s).

And I remember how for many recent decades, you couldn't give away vinyl records. Now they're pushing out CDs! The format that killed vinyl! And old vinyl Lps once laughed at are selling for big bucks. And new re-releases on vinyl sell for three times the cost of a CD! The market is nuts. Just bear in mind that stuff no one wants today might be what EVERYONE wants tomorrow.

Hell, even my dumb 2008-model flippy phone is going to be hipster-chic in about ten years!

I wonder if all those ancient Greek pottery painters felt this same angst we minis painters feel today?

Would they feel better to know their surviving works are in museums now and command a fortune?

piper909 – Some of you points seem well off track, Antiques can be valued but as that not as commonplace items. If the "antiques" were that good we would still be making them en mass. Funny it does not work like that. A friend of mine has restored a music box, quite a rare one and its worth a great deal. However he still uses modern electronics to listen to music.

As to your comment ;-

3-D Plastics are still nowhere near the quality of the best metal castings in my opinion (and I've been a buyer and gamer since the 70s).

I have been playing since the late 60's and refute your comments utterly. All my new stuff is 3D printed, vastly superior to any Metal I have ever owned. Both your and my statements are personal opinion unless backed up by facts.

£D plastic lasts far longer under heavy use, I have one metal army already in the scrap bin, bent, poorly formed, out of scale. It has lasted only a few years: my 3D printed has been going going and in better condition (pretty much as painted original and older than the scrapped metal army. Hard to see how that makes metal far better.

I though about my last post. Clearly we are not really on the same page about what makes a great miniature. I think H man liked Metal as often its simplified and non scale to make painting easy. This was a bonus for him. Me I hate this I want scale models or as close to scale as is possible without being too fragile to take heavy use. This will colour what you think is best.

3D prints (FDM, personally no lover of resin) are massively damage tolerant a key driver for me, it may not be so for others.

Before we go further perhaps we should see if there is even a common consensus on what is important in a miniature because at the moment it appears there is little to no common ground.

I have been tidying my stockpile of shame in the garage, now I have retired. I have tried to sell quite a few minis, some still in their original packaging and unopened. There is little interest in any 15mm non WW2 and modern, some older metals like Dixons and Miniature Figurines and some terrain items like polystyrene hills and rives. So as I will never use, I have landfilled quite a number. Fantasy and Scifi seems to be more interest. In my small gaming group no one games with metal 28mm any more, it all resin or plastic. I suspect the answer is may older gamers like me, have many minis tucked away, that will never ever see the light of day again