"China held responsible?" Topic

We know that China released a genetically modified plague upon the world. Was it intentional or accidental, we don't know and may never know. But at least 20 million people died, which does not include those with permanent health issues since. Also it cost trillions in cost worldwide.

Why are there not mass lawsuits burying China in legal red tape. Why have countries not United to do such? Why not tariffs worldwide on Chinese goods? Why haven't Chinese leaders been declared pariahs? They made Putin one for much less deaths. Why not declare all debts to China null and void, declaring them part of the repayments for the cost of their plague?

I think we know many of the reasons this has not and will not take place. Take partisan politics out of it.

Thoughts? Should China be punished? If so how? If not, why not? Do you hold the Chinese government responsible? Do you believe it was intentional? Playing with biological weapons genetically engineered to experiment on impact's worldwide. Trying to impact worldwide economies of adversaries. Is there worse being planned?

Subject: With lab origin obvious, China must pay for COVID pandemic


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Then is the US equally responsible, for funding "gain of function" research at a Chinese lab?

"Then is the US equally responsible, for funding "gain of function" research at a Chinese lab?"

The US, no. The individuals and groups in the US that helped to fund it, yes.

To elaborate: if you can find that the government was behind it, as opposed to individuals, private organizations and individual departments and their heads, then yes. So far I have not seen it coming directly from the President(whichever). The same for any other country.

But you could be right, maybe they were all guilty of gain of function research and the Chinese either accidentally or purposely released it.

Subject: NIH director admits taxpayers funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan — four years after COVID pandemic began


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On the economics related suggestions, probably there is little inclination to take the actions that you suggest because they have consequences.

For example, tariffs on Chinese goods leads to cost inflation. Inflation rates rose to just short of 9%, in no little part due to cash infusion of the economy during covid and in part due to tariffs, amongst other factors. They are now down to a more modest 3.4%.
I sense there is little appetite amongst the US population to see inflation rise again, which would be one of the inevitable consequences of tariffs.

On declaring debts to China null and void, again there are consequences. One of the reasons that the US can borrow at the low treasury rates that it does, is that US based debt instruments are seen as a safe haven for money. If the US defaults on its debt obligations, then the cost of borrowing will rise significantly. Potentially to a level that would cripple the US economy, resulting in job losses.

Certainly you can impose tariffs and default on debt, but beware they are not without pain on the US.

" Federal spending on interest payments is forecast to hit $870 USD billion this year — exceeding the $822 USD billion that the nation will spend on defense in 2024, according to a recent analysis by the Congressional Budget Office. This year's outlay for interest payments represents a 32% increase from last year's $659 USD billion in interest expense."

Soon to hit 1 trillion a year. The impacts of that are immense as well and will lead to pain for the people of the US.

To quote someone else:

"It was about 1927 when civil war within China started. At that time, China could not pay its bills, so the Chinese government went into default. By 1938 — and full-fledged war with Japan — the Chinese government started selling U.S. dollar-denominated bonds to finance the war with Japan. These bonds were sold worldwide. The Chinese were in survival mode and issued these bonds until 1940. Americans bought loads of them and China has never paid off those debts. Within part of its wartime financial aid, the American government gave China a $500 USD million credit in 1942 and shipped these funds in the form of gold bullion. This was done to stabilize their currency. Our own State Department records show that China never paid back this debt to the American government either. In 1949, the People's Republic of China ended decades of military, financial and political cooperation. This was the point at which the Chinese Communist Party came to power.

In most cases, when another government comes to power they are bound to pay off past debt. With the communist government, they refused to pay the war debts. No one even looked into this debt until the late ‘70s. This was also what took place with our political relations with China. At that time, Washington released government financial claims regarding the expropriation of American property and appears to have dropped the matter of the war debt entirely.

Wait one damn moment. I'm sorry, but the politicians — as I see it — did not have the right to just give up on a claim that was backed by the American taxpayers' dollars. Not no, but Hell no. That is the American citizens' money, not the politicians' money. The government, again, has no right to give up on that claim. Now the individual citizen who lost money on the Chinese bonds tried to sue the Chinese government in the 1980s and ‘90s. But because of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, it is very hard for any U.S. citizen to sue a foreign government in U.S. courts because the law says that U.S. courts do not have jurisdiction. The World Court does. That debt today to the American investor is as much as $750 USD billion.

I know how to fix this problem with the Chinese government and it's simple: They owe our people and our government a combined amount of $1.75 USD trillion; we owe them about $1.5 USD trillion of our own debt. Don't pay them anything and call it even, they will come out to the good. We saved them during WWII. We can take it back even if they do not want to give it back. If our politicians can't do their jobs then we do not need them either. Those who will not work for the American taxpayer need to be put out of office. Vote them out. Our collective tax dollars pay these people."

He is correct, it is taxpayers money, not the politicians. Not their right to forgive anything.

So our defaulting on our debt to China does seem to have a precedent with the Chinese themselves. Turn about seems to be fair play.

Playing devils advocate here. 😈

China is responsible for COVID and anyone who supported them in this venture is as well. If they are from the US, they could be tried for treason, at the very least. If anyone knew what China's plans were even in the long run, they should be thoroughly investigated.

The escape from the lab, may have been an accident, but the results of this certainly would be, e.g. Manslaughter 1 in a US court of law. If purposely released, e.g. it would Murder …

This is now the "Q-Anon Miniatures Page"

Is there a conspiracy theory in this thread, or do you still abide by the "wet market" theory? It seems the lab leak is now the more accepted and most plausible theory. The only real question is was it intentional or not.

The "Q-Anon" comment was uncalled for.

From the NYT

"The F.B.I. and the Department of Energy each concluded that a lab leak was the more likely cause."

"The case for a lab leak
1. Follow the lab.

If historical logic points to natural transmission, a different concept arguably points to a lab leak: Occam's razor. It's a philosophical principle holding that the simplest explanation for a phenomenon is usually the correct one. In this case, a new SARS-like virus started in a city with one of the world's leading labs for researching SARS-like viruses. Many Chinese cities have markets selling live animals; only one is home to the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

The Wuhan lab maintained "one of the world's largest repositories of bat samples, which has enabled its coronavirus research," U.S. intelligence officials have written. Before the pandemic, the lab's scientists traveled to faraway caves to collect virus samples. And bats, like raccoon dogs, can carry coronaviruses.

One possibility is that a virus that would otherwise have remained in the caves infected a lab employee. Another possibility is that scientists in Wuhan engineered a contagious new virus while researching cures and that the virus accidentally escaped.
Notably, there is no evidence of any infected animals, dead or alive, from the Huanan market. Consider this table, from Chan's Opinion essay:
Key evidence of Covid's origins is still missing

A table shows five pieces of evidence that scientists were able to use to demonstrate natural origin of previous coronavirus outbreaks like SARS in 2002 and MERS in 2012. These pieces of evidence – including infected animals found, ancestral variants of the virus found in animals, earliest known cases exposed to live animals – are still missing for Covid-19.

2. Leaks happen.

In recent decades, reports suggests that laboratory employees working on a variety of diseases have been accidentally infected in the United States, Britain, China, Germany, Russia, South Korea and elsewhere.

Even before the pandemic, the Wuhan lab seemed to present a safety risk. When one outside expert heard that the lab planned to research coronaviruses without using state-of-the-art precautions, he wrote in 2018 that "U.S. researchers will likely freak out."

3. China controls the evidence.

It's worth asking which of the two stories China would rather the world believe. Either would be damaging, but a lab leak seems significantly more so. It would mean that China's scientific incompetence killed millions of people — which could explain why Chinese officials have worked so hard to restrict outside research and scrutiny about the virus's origins."

Also:

Subject: COVID Origins Hearing Wrap Up: Facts, Science, Evidence Point to a Wuhan Lab Leak – United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability


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Pretty sure every American I've seen associated with the decision making on the gain of function research was a US gov't employee, and it was US government money that funded it, no?

My opinion….The Chinese are responsible, but did not mean for this to happen. They hurt themselves as much as anyone. I don't believe that the Chinese had only a few hundred fatalities in such a large concentration of people.

The Chinese economy was hit hard by Covid, at one point there were not enough factory workers. There were not even enough people to run the testing clinics. Signs even of social unrest even. I think the release was probably caused by incompetence. We give Xi and the gang too much credit in my opinion. They have yet to make the economic recovery the US has.

The US will not sign onto the ICC and does not recognize its jurisdiction . No option there. There is no process to recover financial awards anyway. If countries start suing each other, look out… Not manslaughter maybe, but definitely civil lawsuits. If there was a jurisdiction.

The tariffs were said to cost American families big bucks when they started, and we had to bail out our soy bean farmers with massive subsidies for two years, I think.

US gain of function research funding is disputed – maybe, maybe not.. A US company got a federal grant to study coronaviruses in bats in China in 2014, which was renewed in 2018, but suspended after the start of the pandemic. This from the BBC.

US gain of function research funding is disputed – maybe, maybe not..

The funding is not disputed. The question is whether it qualified as "gain of function" research or not. Experts disagree.

Absent an understanding of what was agreed to in advance between China and whatever arm of the US government funded "gain of function" research, I think any good lawyer could make a case that the USG had some level of liability for the damage, even if it was caused by Chinese misconduct/malfeasance/South Park-style hijinks/whatever went wrong.

Which is NOT to exonerate the Chinese in any way, but just to say that anyone looking to press a case in whatever court they choose would face some potential for the case to take an unexpected direction, that's all.

Yes Bill, that is what I was trying to say, thanks.

Q-Anon

Another group/mob/tribe of idiots …