"Worst Continental Line General: Horatio Gates!" Topic

You were asked – TMP link

Worst Continental Line General?

44% said "Horatio Gates"
12% said "Charles Lee"

On what basis? OK he lost a battle. And by that I mean he lost the battle rather than simply being beaten by a superior enemy. However based on the intelligence available to Gates when he took command, moving against Camden made sense. The route Gates followed in his advance on Camden has been questioned, but it gave him the opportunity to pick up other troops. Disappearing from the battlefield cannot be defended, but Smallwood was also nowhere to be found in the later stages of Camden.

Now consider the flip side. Gates was responsible for bringing Morgan back into the army. Gates was responsible for creating the flying corps. In the period between Camden and Cowpens Gates was fairly successful in keeping loyalist activity in North Carolina under control. Gates seems to have had a good working relationship with many of the partisans operating in South Carolina, and those partisans were proving to be very successful. Kings Mountain wasn't a fluke. This was on balance a better record than Lincoln could boast during his period in command of the Southern Army.

These are people's opinions not some kind of doctrinal paper.

Most people here are informed enough to have a thought process behind their opinion Paul. I am simply inviting them to share that thought process, not defend their vote.

Considering all the AWI games I have played (as the American side), I think I win this competition!

Most people aren't aware of Charles Lee.
They have heard of Gates, and none of it positive.
I think the poll represents such generalized knowledge.
And, of course, Gates tried to use political maneuvering to usurp the role of Commander in Chief from Washington. That pretty much seals that deal— you're not gonna get good votes in the US (or much of anywhere else) for going against the Father of Our Country.

Plus, nobody loves a loser.

I doubt you'll get much more relevant argument than that.

Interestingly, Greene won the positive poll, despite losing many battles.
Reputation is an interesting thing.

I don't think Gates was the worst. I think a lot of vitriol towards him is tied to Saratoga. A lot of Benedict Arnold fan boys out there who think if he is given credit (he rightly deserved) for his role at Saratoga he doesn't turn traitor. I'm not sure I buy that. Gates was in overall command at Saratoga. When subordinates perform brilliantly we don't dump on the commanders. Nobody gives Meade crap for being the winner at Gettysburg when so many subordinates played roles. Once you hate Gates because of Arnold it's easy to hate him for his less than stellar performance in the south.

I think Parzival has the right of why Gates is disliked. Was he the worst? I don't know, but he up there at the top.

I give Arnold the benefit of Washington's opinion. I also believe he deserves the credit at Saratoga and Gates took the undeserved glory.

"Washington had taken command of the newly formed Continental army outside Boston in Cambridge, MA. Because of Arnold's management both in taking and keeping Fort Ticonderoga back in May-June 1775, Washington decided to ask Arnold to lead a column into Canada to take Quebec City and bring that province into the rebellion. Arnold did so with aplomb but suffered a serious wound on the last day of 1775 in a failed attempt to capture that city. Benedict Arnold went on to fight successfully in 1776 in keeping the British from invading the colonies through the Lake Champlain region, and his greatest victory was at Saratoga in 1777, which led to the French coming into the war as the American's first and most important allies. Washington thought of Arnold as his "fighting general," and supported him as much as he could up to the time of Benedict Arnold's defection back to the British on Sept. 25, 1780. One wonders if Benedict Arnold had served directly under George Washington's command instead of detached operations whether his rejection of the American cause might have taken place."

And

"After being passed over for promotion to the post of Major General, Arnold tendered his resignation. George Washington, however, refused to accept the withdrawal. Soon after, Arnold participated in the Battle of Saratoga, where he was again wounded in his left leg, the same leg that had been injured previously. Soon after, Washington appointed Arnold military commander of Philadelphia"

Despite the defeat, Arnold's heroics captured the admiration of the Continental Congress, which promoted him to brigadier general. Washington, in particular, praised Arnold's "ability and perseverance in the midst of difficulties." Arnold continued to display impressive leadership ability by successfully repulsing a British naval invasion of New England from Canada. Under his leadership, a navy was built from scratch and inflicted such heavy losses on the much larger British forces that the enemy withdrew until the following year. Again, displaying personal bravery, uncommon skill, and fierce determination, Arnold's fame soared. Congressmen cheered him for "saving the honor of the states." Even the English foreign minister lauded him as "the most enterprising man among the rebels."

And

"Arnold achieved his most dramatic victory in upper New York in what became the turning point in the American Revolution. Barely able to mount his horse and suffering another wound, Arnold courageously exposed himself to enemy fire and rallied the fleeing Americans into a raging storm that swept aside the stunned British forces. The American victory at Saratoga led to an alliance with France that provided the revolutionaries with desperately needed funding, naval support, and troops.

Signs of Character Flaws

George Washington knew better than anyone just how critical Arnold was to the American cause. When Arnold turned down his offer to lead a wing of the Continental Army and instead asked for command of the West Point Defenses, Washington reluctantly granted his request. In doing so, he chose to ignore disquieting signs of his favorite commander's character flaws. Despite his fame as "America's Hannibal", Arnold displayed an arrogance, greed, and jealousy that rankled his peers and put him at odds with local officials."

I bow to Washington on Arnold. On the field he was good, But as said he had serious character flaws and of course turning traitor was his downfall. But a better fighting general than Gates, IMO.

I voted for Charles Lee.

I'm not only proud of it, I'm smug about it.

Gawd, what a TWIT who tried to lose Monmouth, among others.

If I had been Washington, two things would be true: 1) I would have had Lee shot, and 2) We'd have lost the war (though the first part bears no relation to the second).

TVAG

Touche, Raymond!

("Raymond Shaw"… as in "The Manchurian Candidate?")

Spooky moniker, Man!

TVAG

I am more nuanced in my view of Arnold. The extent to which he deserves credit for Ticonderoga, for building the fleet on Champlain, the victory on September 19, 1777 and the check to the British in the early part of the October 7, 1777 battle is debatable. Arnold scores no points for his command of the fleet at Valcour. OTOH he held the American army together in the aftermath of the failed attack on Quebec, he successfully relieved Stanwix, and IMO he was responsible for converting the early success on October 7 into a strategic victory.

Overall I think spending most of his time away from the Main Continental Army worked to Arnold's career advantage rather than detriment. By serving with the Northern Army Arnold was able to get opportunities he probably wouldn't have gotten with the main army. As a mere Colonel he ended 1775 in command of the American troops besieging Quebec. In the fall of 1776 he commanded the American squadron on Lake Champlain. In 1777, after St. Clair's departure Arnold as a freshly minted Major General was chief subordinate in the Northern Army. Arnold seems to have had a good working relationship with Schuyler, and in 1776 with Gates. If Arnold had remained with the Main Army then best case he probably would have been just another commander of a brigade of Connecticut Continentals.