"WOTR-Fitzgerald Livery?" Topic

I'm doing an Irish contingent for a future Wars of the Roses campaign for my club and am having a difficult time finding any kind of livery for the supporters of Thomas Fitzgerald, although I did find his banners (Pete's Flags & Freezywater). It "appears" and I stress the word "appears" that at Piltown and Stoke Field that there were some bow, bill, and men at arms under his command besides the various units of kerns and gallowglass. However, finding what the jacket color or badges would be that they wore has eluded me. Any ideas out there?

There's nothing easy about livery colours/badges.

The supporters of the Fitzgerald arms are apes (seriously). Go with an ape for the badge.

Livery colours weren't fixed and could change at the whim of the head of the House. Marriages could change the colours from parti to quartered.

Edward IV? awarded the 7th earl a livery collar and a cloth of red. Use red. Or red and white.

Good call, old_china! The set on eBay with the flags of Fitzgerald, Earl of Kildare does show them in white over red, with an ape passant as badge. Of course that's for the Earl of Kildare which Thomas (second son) was not, merely a knight. Still if one assumes that any household troops Thomas led would have been family retainers, white and red w/ape badge seems a pretty safe bet.

Eummelus.

This highlights another problem – same names, different people!

The Thomas Fitzgerald the OP is concerned with is the 7th Earl of Desmond, a different branch of the Fitzgeralds. However, as far as I can discern, the armorials were the same throughout the houses.

I'll be happy to be corrected. 🙂

I figured I could just use one Fitzgerald for a command stand for various contingents during the fictional campaign, but yes, figuring out which Fitzgerald was where and what he commanded is a challenge! I appreciate the information.

old_c, I apologize if I led astray. I was going by Wikipedia's article on Stoke Field, which links "Sir Thomas Fitzgerald" to Sir Thomas, son of 7th Earl of Kildare and brother of the 8th. If that's not the correct Fitzgerald (or if Wikipedia is incorrect), again I apologize.

Eumelus.

No apology needed. This stuff is complicated 🙂

I agree with old china. A search for "7th Earl of Desmond crest" brings up crests with the torse coloured white and red (so white is on the right hand side of the person wearing the garment). Two of the crests show white griffins as supporters, but the others show none. (Everybody does griffins, lions and unicorns- the apes passant would be a nice change )

The search results aren't proof of anything, but does give a reference you can use, aegiscg47. When it comes to liveries often a best guess at which reference might be right (or even which one you prefer) is all you can do.

I already have several hundred figures and researched most of the units and commanders, but the Irish have been a challenge and I'm afraid the Scots are going to be the same! Here is a battle report of what we've been doing for the WOTR: wfhgs.com/friday050823.html

Lovely figures, mate. That looks like a knife fight and I see there have been some decals used.

Here's a couple of links that may help with the Scots, aegisc, if you haven't already found them:

heraldry-scotland.co.uk Heraldry Society of Scotland

courtofthelordlyon.scot The Lyon Court is the Scots equivalents to the College of Arms.

Thanks for the Scots links!

Dal Gavan and co., I've asked this before on TMP but so far nobody has had much hard data, so I'll keep on asking hoping to get lucky:

(1) Is there any hard data (as opposed to excited hand-wringing by Yorkist-sympathizing clerics) on the strength and composition of the Scottish auxiliaries that formed part of Queen Margaret of Anjou's army in the 2nd St Alban's campaign?
(2) Is it know what happened to this Scottish contingent after 2nd S.A.? Did they all go home, or were some/most of them present at Towton six weeks later?

Eumelus, I don't if there is any detailed information out there. If there is then I haven't found it, but I haven't done any persistent searches, either. All I've seen are generalities- there were some minor Scots nobles with retinues and possibly merc's/volunteers on Margaret's march south, but finding details is another matter.

As for Towton, I haven't found any references to Scots or Borderers being present, though the northern lords probably had some Borderers. I have the Freezywater booklet on Towton, but it's in storage.

There's a battlefield society for Towton and they supply a detailed, if a bit confusing, ORBAT at PDF link , but there's no mention of a Scottish contingent in that, either.

Contingents from Cumberland and Northumberland may have Scots and/or Borderers, but Margaret's "Scottish Army" seems to have disappeared when the London Gates were closed.

As a relation of the Fitzgeralds, the coat of arms I've put on my calling cards is 'Ermine, a saltire guiles'