"Putin Says Western Elites, Not Ukraine, Are Russia's ..." Topic

…True Enemies

"Ukraine is a mere tool in the hands of the collective West which is using it to fight Russia, President Vladimir Putin said on Monday.

He was speaking at a military hospital in Moscow where he met servicemen wounded during the ongoing conflict.

Asked about the enduring Western support for Kiev, the president said the elites of the collective West were actually the true enemy of Russia, rather than Ukraine itself…"

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Armand

Straight out of his notes as a KGB agent.

It feels like 1985…

Well, I guess the Ukrainians are improving. They went from Nazis to tools of the West.

Putin says a lot of things that are propaganda, or just all out lies. Once KGB always KGB …

Is Russia going to attack the West now ? They can't defeat the Ukraine. They wouldn't last vs. the US and NATO. Plus, they have lost about 50% of their military assets.

Legion 4, they always intended to use S-300 as surface to surface missiles and to deploy BTR-50 and T-55 in front line units.

Mike

"The collective West" is a good one.

Better say collective Europe, the US seems to have abdicated from its position of defenders of the free.

Legion 4: this is a waiting game. Both the Hungarian dictator Korban and the US Republicans criticize the further financial support of Ukraine. Without that support Ukraine will not be able to liberate the occupied territories (including Crimea). The European Union is looking for ways to bypass Korban's veto. Without above mentioned support Ukraine cannot win, which in fact means defeat. Putin will continue aggression directed at Moldavia which is not NATO. (On 2 February 2023, Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov declared that Moldova might have Ukraine's fate (meaning to be attacked by Russia) if the Moldovan president Maia Sandu wants Moldova to unite with Romania and join NATO).
The NATO-countries Poland, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania sound very concerned and Finland joined NATO april last year. Remember that the German Wehrmacht's aggression in 1938 (Slowakia and Austria) before the start of World War Two on September 1, 1939.

"Wooooo the Western elites are coming to get you" says the guy whose political system is partly built on having a pretty much untouchable, for the guy in the street, oligarch class who can be arrested and prosecuted at will because of the crimes he allowed them to commit….

Despite this appearing to be something of a domestic event I can't help but wonder if this comment is entirely for internally consumption – particularly since its being amplified by RT. It'll be interesting to see in the Western sphere who bangs on 'about uncountable criminal elites' and variations there on in the coming weeks.

The smartest course of action for Putin is therefore to withdraw completely from Ukraine, and focus on defending Russia from Western Elites. The drain to the Russian military caused by attacking Ukraine, which Putin admits isn't even the True Enemy (tm), is foolish as those resources could be better used to guard against the Western Elite invasion.

""Wooooo the Western elites are coming to get you" says the guy whose political system is partly built on having a pretty much untouchable, for the guy in the street, oligarch class who can be arrested and prosecuted at will because of the crimes he allowed them to commit….

Despite this appearing to be something of a domestic event I can't help but wonder if this comment is entirely for internally consumption – particularly since its being amplified by RT. It'll be interesting to see in the Western sphere who bangs on 'about uncountable criminal elites' and variations there on in the coming weeks."

And yet there something so fimilar in this(for Americans.)

(smile)

Armand

Legion 4, they always intended to use S-300 as surface to surface missiles and to deploy BTR-50 and T-55 in front line units.

Indeed, they have to use everything they got on hand to defeat the Nazis in the Ukraine.

Legion 4: this is a waiting game. Both the Hungarian dictator Korban and the US Republicans criticize the further financial support of Ukraine. Without that support Ukraine will not be able to liberate the occupied territories (including Crimea).

As I said on another thread here …

Remember how much equipment the US has sent. But again the US leadership slow walked many of the weapons etc. that the Ukraine needed to be more effective in pushing the invading Russians out of their territory. And still much of that US aid has not arrived.

Regardless, many in the US are still concerned about Ukraine. And many know Putin has to be defeated. For a number of reasons. However, many in the US Congress are trying to stop the invasion of 10 million+ illegal aliens that cross our Gov't sanctioned open Southern Border.

The US can't and shouldn't have to deal with these 10 million "invaders". That many bodies flooding into big cities is untenable. Where do you put them, how do you feed them and provide medical support, etc.? Where does the $ come from to pay for all these illegal aliens ? Plus, the Cartels/gangs use all those illegal aliens as cover to bring into the US drugs, sex traffickers, etc. Killing thousands of Americans with Chinese supplied drugs. As well as other crimes.

Many in the US Congress wants the POTUS and his admin to shut down the border, let LEOs, ICE, etc. do their jobs. And round up as many illegal aliens as they can and deport them. For as long as it is needed. Regain control of our borders and try to give our bigger cities a break.

Then the US Congress will free up money, etc. for Ukraine, etc. But we must secure our own borders now …

Many years ago, Jan Tinbergen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Tinbergen) warned to have development funds for third world countries, because if we did not they would come to get it. This is exactly what is happening (but not the only cause, of course). We in The Netherlands, incidentally, have a problem more: the shortage of people to fill jobs. So our total immigration is for the most part people from Eastern Europe to fill "lower" jobs and people from Asia and India to fill "high tech" jobs (ASML, other ICT). A very small part is fugitives from – for instance – Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan. I have no idea if the USA have a comparable problem (unfilled jobs in a greying – is that a word ? – society). See here a list of growing population density: link The Netherlands are placed 32, the USA 185 (;-)).
I quite understand your problems with "10 million plus illegal aliens". But I am sure that "stopping" will not work. Prohibition (like in the twenties of the previous century) is no solution. Unfortunately I cannot immediately tell you what would work, but be assured that politicians (of any party) telling the public they will "stop immigration by building a wall or better defense or whatever" know or should know that this is . Aforementioned politicians just tell this in order to be re-elected. Like for instance the war on drugs, another nonsense unfortunately, will never solve the problem because the fact is there IS a market and since supplying is illegal there can be made lots of money with it (remember Walter White's money room in the last season of Breaking Bad ;-)). Obviously politicians (and, mind, I do mean only a few !) profit from it and therefore will continue to to protect the status quo (see especially politics in Mexico).
Returning to Ukraine: we (The Netherlands) have given 18 F-16 planes. Since however Ukranian pilots have to learn to use them (training of the first six ended december 2023) it takes time to have them on the front. A friend of mine once said "Politics is not about getting what you want, it is about getting what you prefer !".
May in 2024 some of our (Dutch and American ;-)) problems be solved…

Thank you for your European insight Porthos. We get sort of isolationist over here and I think we need to be VERY concerned about the trends in world affairs. Unfortunately we don't seem to have anyone in either party of a Churchill/Roosevelt stature.

I have no idea if the USA have a comparable problem

I have mention the US problem is with a Gov't sanctioned open border. And those in charge are doing 0. Online, one can find many US leaders inviting illegal aliens in. The same goes with Sanctuary Cities. They said come we are welcoming you ! And in both cases they will have to eat those words. Or are now.

the public they will "stop immigration by building a wall or better defense or whatever"

Texas has already blocked parts of the Rio Grande with large linked orange buoys. Forcing illegals aliens to go somewhere else to try to cross the US Southern Border.

A wall does the same. Like setting a defense for an Infantry Plt or Co. you place obstacles to channelize the enemy into kill zones, etc. Most wargamers would know that. I know Infantrymen and Tankers do.

The same works with the open border. Like water it will seek the point of least resistance. So, obstacles will and are doing the same with illegal aliens. But here's the rub. The CBP that is supposed to be guarding the border. Most are working to in process and release these illegal aliens into the USA. Most of which don't qualify for asylum. Coming here for a job does not qualify.

Some holes are cut into the wall by the cartels. To let the illegal aliens flood in. If there were more guards, they could stop the wall being breached. But again most CBP are processing illegal aliens. The Air Marshels and Fed Prison Guards have been sent to assist with this flood coming across the border. CBP is a Federal. Their orders are if the illegal aliens make it to the US shore, etc. They cut the razor wire put out by the state and local LEOs have put out to stem the flow. And let them in.

Based on all the interviews by retired ICE, CBP, LEOs, etc., they all say they had the border under control, 4 years ago. Before the Gov't sanctioned the open border. So are all those former LEOs, etc. lying ? No I was here I saw that the border was under control. Now thousands a day line up to be allowed into the US. But with these huge numbers even if CBP or ICE could do their job they'd have to have the Military assisting with large numbers. How do you process 5000 a day at a border crossing ?

Who will feed, provide shelter, medical aid, etc. when these millions of homeless illegal aliens get to a town or city ? The border towns are overrun. The Sheriffs and local LEOs are interviewed every day on the news. The large cities, many claiming to be Sanctuary Cities are having the same problem.

If that was not bad enough the cartels and gangs using these millions of aliens as cover. For their drug smuggling, human trafficking, etc. Thousands of Americas are being poisoned by these deadly drugs sold or given to the cartels by the PRC/CCP.

So I really don't think some may appreciate the disaster of the US Gov't's sanctioned open borders. It has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, etc. It has to do with logistics and the criminals bringing drugs etc. across the border. How do you provided basic needs 10 million people ? Who pays for it ? The Taxpayer of course, and most don't want their $ going to people who are not Americans. When there are Americans here who don't have the $, etc. The average taxpayer has better things to do with their hard earned $. USD Like buying food, gas, etc. for their own family.

I fear many from outside the USA have no idea what is going on. And it is a self-inflicted wound from our own Gov't.

And yet there something so fimilar in this(for Americans.)

What, that "traditional values" defending politician's have set up false dichotomies and manufactured non-existence existential threats based on made-up propaganda amplified by internet click-bait and troll farms and 'media' who dress up opinion as fact?

The footage and reports from the border don't lie … There is no advantage IMO to add 10-12 million illegal aliens. Many will be a burden on the system, plus add drugs, sex traffickers, criminals, etc., that come in along with the illegal aliens, etc. There is no real good that will come of this. Unless you are a cartel or ganger member, terrorist, etc. Or an illegal alien who gets everything free on the US taxpayers' dime.

That is not racism but a matter of logistics and crime prevention. The USA could not take another 10-12 million illegal aliens for another 4 years.

"Isolationist" – there's a term guaranteed to start an argument these days; it's always used as a term of abuse, as if the world somehow had an automatic right to American money and lives.

I think I, like most people, accept that there are legitimate times when the United States must intervene in wars, and I would agree that the Second World War and the Cold War furnished ample threat to the national interest, and justified most of the expense and some of the sacrifice. But I think we've gone badly awry since the Cold War ended. There has always been great power competition in Europe; the Cold War froze it in place, but the Balkan War demonstrated that the fundamental issues that caused it had never really vanished. Now we stand in a fair way of being dragged by the nuclear suicide pact of NATO into conflicts that really don't affect us very much.

What interest does America have in that? Traditionally, the answer is, "none." Europe, of course, has a great deal – but four of the G-7 economies are found in Western Europe. Two are nuclear powers. They ought to be able to defend themselves. What interest has the average American in what flag flies over Riga?

I realize we have a NATO commitment, but commitments can be ended – and realistically, we've underwritten European social democracy for close to eighty years now, by providing the defense Europeans don't want to pay for. What interest has the average American in that? More importantly, why would we want to commit a generation of American schoolchildren to a meat grinder that's made necessary because our "allies" won't meet their commitments? Why would we continue to incur debt on their behalf? It's one thing when we're facing an opponent whose goal is world totalitarian revolution; national irredentism is something else entirely.

The reality is, if you look at much of American history, borders have moved and national governments of all kinds have risen and fallen in Europe and Asia, and the U.S. pretty much went on its way. It mostly sat out the wars against Napoleon, and it might well have sat out the First World War – indeed, sitting out the First World War might have been an improvement over what happened, since it might have led to a negotiated peace that prevented the Second War and the Cold War altogether. So I'll be a contrarian here: why can't Europe arm and defend itself against Putin, and what vital interest does the average American have in an intra-European conflict that's worth the sacrifice of the lives of his family members or his money?

nine pound round +1

What interest has the average American in what flag flies over Riga?

We have SEVERAL times discussed it here for the LAST TEN YEARS. Please let me cite myself. I wont embarass anybody by reminding their naive opinions.

In 2015 I wrote:
TMP link

Why USA should fight for Lithuania?

1. Dollar
If USA doesn't want to fight for Lithuania, USA economic credibility will fall. Along with value of dollar.
Germany will join BRICS (as it openly discuss it already), France will follow. Dollar will lose position in international markets.

2. Nukes
If USA doesn't want to fight for Lithuania, USA military credibility will fall. Many nations will start ABC programme to bolster their defence. First Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Ukraine (Ukraine still have all necessary infrastructure and scientists and Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is already dead). Secondly (in reaction) Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt, Jordania, Gulf States, Germany. Then Spain, Italy and Poland, and few others.

How long does it take to acquire one of those ABC warheads by ISIS or AQ and ship them to NYC or LA?

3. History

Once upon a time there was a country. This country liberated itself from Russian rule after bloody war. Its president desperately asked for international support, esp of USA. Nation was strongly pro-USA then (Rambo 3 was most favourite film). They asked for help from West, got nothing. So they turn to Islamists…

Two wars, many atrocities and 200 000 deaths later, Chechen nation was islamized, partially subjugated while embittered fighters dispersed around the world. They now hate both Russia as well as USA.

(…)

Before the WW2, French people asked: why die for Danzig?
link
Well, since they didn't want to die for Danzig, they had to die for Paris instead.

"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war."

(…)

Putin will not keep any agreement. USA does not want to third time repeat history (of reconquering Europe). USA does not want to let neighbors of Russia gone under protectorate (intelligence/military cooperation) of China.

See, semi-officials plans of NeoSoviets are
1. Provocations against Russian minorities in Baltic (terrorist bombing of Russian meeting in Riga,Estonia etc)
2. "Green men" appear in Baltics
3. Russian Army is "helping opressed brothers in Baltics".
4. Most probably – Warsaw (less probably – alternatively Gdańsk) is nuked (no missile, just "terrorist attack", unknown TIR container etc) to paralyze Poland and terrify Western Europe. Polish military airfields are attacked with "terrorist drone attacks". Poland territory is not invaded.
5. Russian Army true goal: march to Kiev to take control of whole Ukraine by creating puppet government.
6. Maybe: Russian Army lands in Gotland (Sweden, not NATO memeber, under the excuse that it were "Sweden fascists" who set the bomb at the Riga Russians meeting) OR Bornholm (Red Army has occupied this island till 1946, so Russians think they have some rights to it) to set there missile outpost interdicting Baltics and to have local population as hostages and bargaining chip (they need to have something to give up in post-conflict negotiations).

See, Poland few times had to liberate Baltics neigbors from Russian tyranny, last time in 1919.

We do not want to do it again, but we together may have to if You do not stop Putin now.

In 2017 I wrote:
TMP link

If there was just one British company in Gdańsk(Danzig) and one French company in Polish Silesia, Hitler would not have attacked Poland (he didnt believe WAllies, including Canada, will declare war for a Poland).

Moving substantial non European military forces towards the Russian or Belorussian frontier will only serve to provoke Russia and allow Putin to say to his own people that his version of NATO's motives is correct, that is that NATO has aggressive intentions. It could destabilize the region more than stabilize the situation. (…) Moderation and creative diplomacy guided by reason and empathy for others are the best tools for getting constructive change accomplished in the modern world.

You may not understand how the Russian government think, I am afraid. I was born as a Soviet slave, essentialy. One of my ancestor was Russian. I know Russians a lot.
NeoSoviets, who unfortunately now run Russia, understand only logic of force, strange to us:

Talk is for weak.

Show them force, they step back.

Show them weakness, they push.

Testing how far the USA let them go.

And all the world is watching. All the sharks are testing, if the blood of USA is in the water.

Many neighbors of Russia consider China potential ally – maybe they should ask for intelligence and military cooperation with China, instead of USA?

And just before 2022 war I was in minority:
TMP link

Of course USA should support Ukraine. Question is, whether USA has enough determination and power?

If most of Ukraine fall into Russian hands (or Russians succeded with installing pro-Russian government in Kiev by coup d'état) that means Russian army is based in Lwów/Lviv. It means Russian army can very easy attack southern Poland into Silesia or Romania.

Vistula, Niemen, Oder and consortes are easy to cross in upper (southern) part (when they are small streams and the valleys are shallow) and very difficult to cross in lower (nortern) part. Thus Russians always tried to attack Poland throgh Lwów/Lviv because it is much easier.
If Russian Army would be stationed near Lwów/Lviv gate, Poland would need at least THREE US Armoured Divs near Bug River. Which USA could not afford.

Which means Poland and Romania would be forced to change the orientation (along with change of govts) and agree on security guarantees from China (China is doing everything to get such a deal) and start earning money on Belt and Road Initiative (reversing Columbian world).

Noone in Central Europe wants Russia influence (Russia cannot offer any positive modernization packet). It is either USA (preferably) or China+Germany (second choice).

Fall of Kiev means fall of USA unilateral hegemony. Fall of Breton Woods. Proliferation of nukes. Fall of US Dollar.

USA would still have Elon Musk, internet, Hollywood, maybe Visa. But BRICS++ would starve USA empire.

We in Central Europe will NOT fight war in Kiev ALONE, in the best interest of USA. USA has to show us in Central Europe their commitment and determination. Yankees first. If not, bye bye USA hegemony.

We in Central Europe will survive and we will adapt to new world.

(…)

And all the world is watching. Philipines, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Saudi, Poland, Romania, Sweden, GB, Turkey, India, Canada, Norway. Your blood is already in the water and sharks are circling.

Do You have determination and power to fulfill You obligation or maybe You, Yankees, give up?

Read those posts and sincerely answer Yourself who was right: those in minority who warned about Russia or those in majority who was not.

And maybe, just maybe if my predictions were at this time in the past right, then maybe I am not wrong about the future?

Maybe supporting free world is in the best interest of USA?

Umpapa +1

Maybe supporting free world is in the best interest of USA?

I agree with you completely … IMO the current US leadership is confused about the USA's position in the World. As well as a lot of other things. Priorities are way off. 'nuff said