"Help me write a shopping list" Topic

I have a lot of the German tanks, armored cars, haltracks and trucks for the Afrika Korps, and a good handle on what to get to round them out. I need to get them some opponents.

I'm planning to start with the 1942 battles, because I have the planes for that year already, and it was a pretty good year of see-saw operations. I'll worry later about rounding out the collection back to 1941.

I'm all at sea with the British. They used a lot of different tanks and armored cars, both native and Lend-Lease, and it's an awful lot of research to establish which sub-models and variants showed up in which operations.

I'm just plain clueless about the Italians. I haven't even started that research project.

So, here's a fun project: tell me what to buy! I need to make a shopping list.

Bonus points for pointers to "Getting started gaming the Western Desert" web pages, or similar.

- Ix

PS: I don't need pointers to exact miniatures, just the real-life tanks I should look for in scale models. I'm doing this collection in 1/144 scale, to match the planes I already have in droves, and will act immediately to get items already appearing in the m_bergman STL collection. Things not in that collection will take some treasure hunting, but between BPM, DOB POD, Anschluss, and Kamiya, I can probably get what I want, and there's more coming to this scale all the time

- Ix

OK. For the Italians, M14/41 tanks 75mm Semovente and AB39 or 40 armored cars. L6 light tanks are also an option.

For the British, Valentine tanks for infantry brigades. Cruiser brigades had a mix of Crusaders, Stuarts, Grants and Shermans which varied brigade to brigade and battle to battle. I'd say it's a good general rule to have a mix of the relatively light Crusaders of Stuarts and the heavier Grants and Shermans, but it would be helpful to know what size units you're raising. Would 12 tanks be a squadron, a regiment or a brigade?

For armored cars, my first though is you can't go too far wrong with a Marmon-Herrington.

Now watch all the serious Western Desert people come sneer at my ignorance.

Would 12 tanks be a squadron, a regiment or a brigade?

Probably all 3. I have several approaches to try:

• As 1:1 targets in aerial dogifight games (after which the survivors will fight enemy tanks 1:1 in a skirmishy micro-tactical game).
  
• As units in tactical games at about PanzerBlitz scale (but probably with multiple tank models per "unit", so I can represent "step losses" visually).
  
• As units in grand tactical or operational games, e.g. Rommel by Sam Mustafa.

Starting with '41 has a big advantage — The Benghazi Handicap book for Command Decision, massive TOE information by month.

That's a very persuasive sales pitch. I'll go take a look.

I like the desert campaign but I have never been able to work out how to make it look good. Micro armour fits best with the scale of the action but then you have the challenge of the terrain, where a 3-foot high granite escarpment was a major figure and everything that moved was dug in.

'42 is a good year from a kit perspective because you start with 1941-vintage M3s and Crusaders, and by year end, you're all Shermans and even the odd Churchill.

Your approach is admirable, Yellow Admiral--but it calls for three shopping lists. At 1:1 you have to start showing the vehicles made for close support. At the Rommel level, you start needing heavier artillery--which is now on the board--command posts, and logistical centers. My advice would be to start near PB, and then expand in direction, but one at a time. As I can testify from experience, trying to do the whole project in one big bite can leave you with a lot of castings and no armies suitable for a game.

Good luck!

Another enthusiastic endorsement for Benghazi Handicap. Opens with War Comes to the Desert June-August 1940 and ends with Operation Crusader November/December 1941. Not only organizational information but a number of scenarios. Only issue is finding one at a reasonable price as it is out of production. There has long been rumored a follow on to pick up where Benghazi Handicap leaves off.

For the Italians as noted M13/40s with some armoured cars and, if you want them to have an actual chance, some 75mm Semoventes

For the Brits, Bren gun carriers, Crusaders with of Honeys and some Grants as well as a Dingo or two plus of course the Marmon-Harringtons – plus of course 25 pdrs and 2 pdr anti-tank; the 6 pdrs did not arrive until April or May of 1942, so depending on what battles you are planning you may or may not need them

Don't forget that about 700 to 750 M3 Grants and Lees were used in the desert, starting at Gazala in May through to the "October" Alamein. In addition, 300 Shermans arrived by September. IIRC at Alamein there were something like 250 Shermans and maybe 200 Grants / Lees.

Italy,,, oh boy,,,
L3/33 for the light stuff.
A very few M11/39
Mostly M13/40.
A couple of Semoventes 75/18s.

While the Italian armour actually played as an important a role as the german armour did,,, you might be better off playing their motorized infantry supported by their artillery.

For the UK,,, most of the pre war A9 and A10 were pretty used up in either Greece or the very first year in the desert.

A few Matildas but omostly Valentines for the "I" tanks.
An absolute horde of Stuarts.
Crusaders and Grants for the big part as the cruiser types.

Which versions of the Valentine and Matilda? There are a few to choose from….

- Ix

If anyone is looking for a copy of Benghazi Handicap, I just ordered it from OMM. (Along with a pile of other CD:TOB TO&E books. Gotta make the shipping cost worthwhile…)

- Ix

@Yellow Admiral Valentine II's and III's mostly. Mark IX with the 6pdr gun in ‘43.

DOPPOD.com which points to chrisparkergames.com carries and prints the entire Bergman line in 12mm and 15mm. I personally play in 12mm now.

@Yellow Admiral Matildas would be the MkII version , as no Mk I were sent to North Africa .

Frank Chadwick and others did a couple of articles in the old "Command Post Quarterly" back in the 1990s about the OOB of the Africa Korps and the larger Panzer Armee Afrika, including the Italian corps and divisions. They provided very comprehensive OOB data for Command Decision, so all the OOBs are at a roughly 1:5 level. Would suggest getting your hands on those, as they are pretty comprehensive for IIRC mid-1941.

"Chadwick's Guide to the Afrika Korps" in four parts covering Feb 41 to Aug 42 and on in Command Post Quarterly #3.
"Axis Order of Battle Gazala" May 42 Command Post Quarterly #9.
"Allied Order of Battle Gazala" May 42 Command Post Quarterly #10
These last two actually cover the Gazala period not just the battle. There may have been other articles I missed in a quick flip through of the issues.

"Chadwick's Guide to the Afrika Korps" in four parts covering Feb 41 to Aug 42 and on in Command Post Quarterly #3.
"Axis Order of Battle Gazala" May 42 Command Post Quarterly #9.
"Allied Order of Battle Gazala" May 42 Command Post Quarterly #10

YESSSSS!!! Thank you! That saves me a long and fraught research project trying to discover the issues/titles/etc.

Now I just have the long and fraught treasure hunt to find each of these.

- Ix

link

link
link
auction
Treasure hunt is over. :)

These pdfs might help .

British Forces, Battle of El Alamein, 23 October 1942

PDF link

Italo-German Order of Battle, North Africa, 24 May 1942

PDF link

Talk about a cooperative effort! Well done all around and drinks on the house.