"Hamas vs Israel... again" Topic

Again, IMO there is no way anyone can support what happened in Israel. But millions do … even in some non-moslem nations. E.g. NYC USA, Australia, UK, France, etc.

The world has become very bad place. Or at least it got worse ? As it lacks some real leadership from the West. 'nuff said …

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Subject: Era Gigman on X: "Behold world. Watch the barbarism unfold. This is what the new war is all about. Good vs. Evil. Which side are you on? TRIGGER ALERT ⚠️ 🚨 GRAPHIC CONTENT ⚠️🚨 #IsraelStrong #StandWithIsrael #IsraelFightsBack #Hamas_is_ISIS #Antisemitism t.co/K9NvvKv3Pp / X


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@35th OVI. This is how they behave. This is what Israel has been facing since 1948. The only reason it has not engulfed the whole of Israel is Because of the IDF (and its predecessors). This is the of many, many Palestinians and other MENA people.

Now Israel will strike back. What Hamas has sown all of Gaza will reap… in my eyes IDF will have quite a lot of leeway…

Soledad, I would say not just Israel, but anyone who has been attacked by Islamic terrorists, influenced by the radical fundamentalist Islamic teachings of jihad against non-Islamic infidels.

🤔 hmmm. Has Taiwan attacked China recently? What about those small islands off the Chinese coast, have they launched large scale attacks? Seems self defense is only required by others, not China. But I'm sure 😉

Subject: China says Israel's actions in Gaza have 'gone beyond self defense'


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The sincerity of Xi's pronouncements are always in doubt, no matter what topic.

I do not think, based on the latest US national polls, that the pro-Palestinian protests here are much more than a side story, although they should be covered – as news. Most US Palestinian support comes from people under 50. Fox and others are not always giving us the numbers of protesters supposedly "sweeping" the nation, "erupting" etc. Two protests I checked on, one less than 100, one about 60, have made the news. Some appear to number in the hundreds, some in the thousands.

But the national poll numbers show sympathy for both the Palestinian people and the Israelis, not Hamas. I think we are behind Israel at around 71% in responding to the atrocities they experienced. But we are not united behind Israel's recent Gaza policies. Can we separate the two? Hamas has to go, and it will not be easy – this much seems clear to almost everyone.

Some media want to stir more divisive outrage around this fight. The freedom of speech many elite politicians enjoy here, needs to be respected for everyone else, no matter how much we don't like what some are are saying. The cable news has also been the beneficiary of free speech, spreading outrage and freely turning opinions into news for years now. First Amendment.

I do not think, based on the latest US national polls, that the pro-Palestinian protests here are much more than a side story, although they should be covered – as news

I think they should be a main political/social story in the US and West -- how did so many people in the US and the West become virulently antisemitic? How did most of the Education Establishment get captured by the antisemitic and nihilistic Left that supports mass murder? How did political groups with mainstream reach like Black Lives Matter and even Amnesty International hide their deep antisemitism and sympathy for mass murder? And how to we root this out, how do we deal with it?

Maybe they just want to upset you

In the 1930s and 1940s Jewish immigrants in New York were kept out of most respectable industries, so publishers, writers and artists created an industry of their own, comics. They also created its proprietary genre, superheroes, which they infused with various levels of Jewish signification.

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I don't know SB. Looking at you posts, it seems like there is no "right", only a "Left"? You lost me back there somewhere, but it is likely my own fault. The Center is my personal favorite. Our goal- don't get crazy, do what has to be done.

In the nearest big town to me, tens of pro-Palestinian supporters walked up and down the sidewalk for half an hour on Saturday. It made the local news, with photos. I had no sense that they were destroying civilization as we know it. I personally support Israel doing what has to be done and not getting crazy. We will see….

But the protester rights and your rights to speak your views are identical, thankfully.

Quartermass, great story!

Mean while in the US
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Something completely different.
How can I pick on Cuprum when he can't fight back???
This is no game for a gentleman.
He was just being sarcastic, not as elegantly vicious as me, but still.

Thanks Tortorlla
Dapeters
I saw that article.
You know part of the working definition of antisemitism is to blame Jews for the actions of Israel.
Seeing as Arabs are also a "Semitic" race is it not allso antisemtic to blame all Arabs for the actions of hamas?

Looking at you posts, it seems like there is no "right", only a "Left"? You lost me back there somewhere, but it is likely my own fault. The Center is my personal favorite. Our goal-

In this case -- yes. Do I see a vast institutionalized "right" marching in solidarity with Hamas and mass murder? No. Do I see an institutionalized "right" in charge of media declaring they will block reporters from calling Hamas terrorists? No. Do I see politicians on the "right" supporting the call to eliminate Israel from "the river to the sea"? No.

So there is a problem with the Left that is deeply hostile to our own nation and civilization, pretending otherwise is just silly.

I saw this also DA. Hopefully this will stay an isolated incident or there will be more senseless tragedies, of which we have had enough.

I don't think I have ever seen the USA and parts of the world so ed up. And the IDF has not even entered Gaza in strength yet.

Each day that passes is a day that gives the IDF especially hot headed reservists time to prepare themselves for a let's hope a professional well executed operation.

Will they wipe out hamas? Its doubtful.

If only it was that simple SB. I don't think anyone is marching in solidarity with Hamas. Hamas is not everyone in Gaza or Harvard.

Subject: Two dead in Brussels terrorist attack with gunman at large – EURACTIV.com


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"If only it was that simple SB. I don't think anyone is marching in solidarity with Hamas. Hamas is not everyone in Gaza or Harvard"

Oh I think their will be few but it will something like 10 in every 10,000.

Living in London when i was younger I went a number of demos and their was always small groups about.

Their is a group called the socialist workers party who would turn up with van load of printed placards with some slogan and their name plasted on the top, they would hassle protesters to take the placards and not take no for awncer.
The reason for this? So on the TV they would look bigger than they were.
Do you rember the black block? well London cell numbered about 30 they only ever turned up when something got really big.

Couple years ago their was a gay pride where their was some controversy over an ISIS flag however the Islamic writing was made up with images of sex toys.

What I'm basically saying is the cammra is a distorting lens.

Agreed. In such a large population there will be some supporters of Hamas. But very few, I am guessing.

A little truth can be the basis for larger distortions. There is another agenda at work in broadly condemning segments of American society in this way. They can be blamed for many grievances to help unite and strengthen an opposition power base.

Legion, don't forget the 60's, plenty of chaos, social and political.

Tort think about this statement of yours

"A little truth can be the basis for larger distortions. There is another agenda at work in broadly condemning segments of American society in this way. They can be blamed for many grievances to help unite and strengthen an opposition power base."

What have they been doing to one segment of the population since 2016? "Extreme MAGA Republicans", "extremists", "Facists" and that is just nice things they insinuate. 😂

Subject: 12ft | Macron Calls for Deportation of All Migrants with Ties to Islamic Extremism


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Subject: EXCLUSIVE: Sen. Cotton Demands DHS ‘Immediately Deport' Foreign Nationals Who Express Support For Hamas Attacks | The Daily Caller


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Tortorella
I don't think I was clear 10 in every 10.000 comment refers to people turning up to a demo.

Hear in the UK ethnic minorities make up about 14% of the population.

With in a mile of where I live their about 4 mosques 3 churchs and a large Orthodox Jewish communtiy.
I live among turks,Kurds,carabians,all kinds of African's
,Indians,Bangladeshis,Polish, Irish,travelers,jews,working and middle class British.
We all get on with each other by and large and personally I love where I live.
IMO
Living in a monoculture or a ghetto creates fear of the other and the kind of bone headness that is ripe for exploitation.

Yes you are right 35th. Apologies, I was talking about the context of what SB wrote. What I said can be true for Squad or extreme MAGA. As long as no crimes are committed they are still free to speak their minds.

Yes, you are right about that Quatermass. I worked among many different ethnic groups in my government service and learned a great deal, grew comfortable with diverse cultures. I agree with your conclusion.

What are
Squad and extreme MAGA?

A trap has been set for Israel

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Armand

So, reading a short interview with John Spencer with 'DER SPIEGEL', a German, you would probably call it left leaning liberal (???), magazine this morning I thought it would be a good idea to post a google translate:

Interview by 'DER SPIEGEL' with John Spencer

If you want the source:
archive.ph/wnbbR

And just in case you're more interested in the topic of Urban Warfare in Gaza, here is a nice podcast specifically on this and some others in general on the subject.
I take it the organization that created them is considered credible here.

ISRAEL, GAZA, AND THE LOOMING CHALLENGES OF URBAN WARFARE – On 'Modern War Institute' at Westpoint

My assessment don't seem to be too far off from his.

@Quartermass

"What are
Squad and extreme MAGA?"

Squad – a group of specific Democratic Congressmen

I will take both definitions From Wiki, so as not to place in my prejudices. (We will then only get Wikipedia's prejudices. 😂)

"The Squad is the unofficial name for a group of six progressives elected in the 2018 and 2020 elections in the United States House of Representatives. It is made up of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jamaal Bowman of New York, Ilhan Omar of Minnesota, Ayanna Pressley of Massachusetts, Cori Bush of Missouri and Rashida Tlaib of Michigan. All are people of color under 50.[1] They are supported by the Justice Democrats and are in the left wing of the Democratic Party.[2]"

MAGA – Make America Great Again. Another name for Trump supporters.

Again Wiki

"Make America Great Again" (MAGA, US: /ˈmæɡə/)[1] is an American political slogan which was popularized by Donald Trump during his successful 2016 presidential campaign. The slogan became a pop culture phenomenon, seeing widespread use and spawning numerous variants in the arts, entertainment and politics, being used by both those who support and those who oppose Trump's presidency. Used by Ronald Reagan as a campaign slogan in his 1980 presidential campaign, it has since been described as a loaded phrase. Multiple journalists, scholars, and commentators have called the slogan racist, regarding it as dog-whistle politics and coded language.[2][3][4][5]

"MAGA" is also used to refer to Trump's political base, or to an individual or group of individuals from within that base ("a MAGA", "MAGAs")."

Thanks 35thovi
Can I have a definition with your prejudices please!
Or will you end up in the doghouse🐕

Quartermaster…. Ahh … No. 😉

"My assessment don't seem to be too far off from his."-Arjuna

Ten minutes into the podcast and they have said very little droning on in idle banter. I wish they would get to the point I couldn't endure another minute…

Thanks for these articles Arjuna,I was hoping we would finally get to some military discussion.

I tried earlier, but I am still my own worst enemy when it comes to taking the political bait when the talk turns one-sided and my sense of balance is disrupted. I just want it to settle down, but that ship has sailed. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

Tort as I've said multiple times, there is nothing to talk about militarily right now, unless you want to talk about differences in artillery, bombs and missiles. 😉

That is really all that is happening right now.

We have many politicians and media in our country and others, pressuring Israel to use " proportionalism".

"Israel you must only retaliate so far". Animals can come in rape, murder, burn alive, rape, torture and pillage your land and citizens, but you must use restraint.

So what do we get with "proportionalism"? The same thing again and again.

So all wars are politics. This one is politics with religion thrown in.

Here you go

Subject: Why has the Gaza ground invasion been delayed since Friday? – analysis – Defense News – The Jerusalem Post


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@Tortorella

That's the reason I posted them.
On the other hand, I had actually planned to go into SBminisguy's socio-historical panoramic view of society, but that would probably have gone too far, besides the reference to that absurd and shameful guerrilla warfare that Jordan Peterson must now wage against a professional organization of his profession.
Funnily enough, SBminisguy's comment reminded me of texts from the Frankfurt School of the New Left.
But as I said, that leads too far here.

@Dragon Gunner
Sorry to have wasted a bit of your lifetime, but this may serve as a warning to others and so that should be worth the sacrifice.

must use restraint

For sure it is highly suspicious that Israel, of all places, is put under special observation, while elsewhere there is unrestricted murder and no one cares.
Jemen anyone?
Israel probably has the most disciplined and restrained military organization and modus operandi in history.
If anyone abides by the rules of war, it is Israel.

Funnily enough, SBminisguy's comment reminded me of texts from the Frankfurt School of the New Left.
But as I said, that leads too far here.

Comparing me to the Frankfort School is deeply insulting! And I don't know how you get there from my observation that Western society has essentially embraced a Frankfort School poison that has captured the Establishment university system, much of the media and many politicians and influence groups.

Here's a Newsweek guest oped supporting Hamas:

I Am a Black American and I Stand With Palestinians—I Understand Their Trauma

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Really? In a recognized media brand name they decide to carry a pro-Hamas opinion?

And what is the "New Left" anyway? Seems like an oxymoron. You can take this discussion to the Blue Fez if you wish to, like to know what you mean.

Frankly, I see some people here handwaving for the Left's support of Hamas -- oh, there aren't that many, nothing more to see here so move along…attempts to do the "both sides" moral equivalency and all that. I think this has been an eye-opener for many people.

Legion, don't forget the 60's, plenty of chaos, social and political.

Yes I didn't forget the '60s even if I was much younger than. But what I came away with as I aged – Don't trust the Gov't. But joined the Army anyway ! 😎

All BS aside … Like the invasion of Ukraine, the Hamas attack/murder, etc. There is no way to paint either as what the are … Albeit the Hamas pawns of Iran committed horrific barbaric crimes against humanity.

Both situations they are inexcusable … Regardless of what is being taught at Harvard, etc., etc. by far left progressive, socialist academics …

I Am a Black American and I Stand With Palestinians—I Understand Their Trauma

Sorry I don't think the "Tramas" are comparable.

Subject: 12ft | Minnesota AG Keith Ellison's Chief of Staff Promotes Pro-Hamas Rally


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like to know what you mean

@SBminisguy
It simply means that, if I remember correctly, Adorno and Horkheimer, the two main devils of the "Frankfurt School", in parts of their "Dialectic of Enlightenment" and other of their writings, argued that the modern, liberal societies of their time, namely the Western democracies, carry strong fascist potentialities and that classical liberal democracy had been replaced by strong corporatist forces which, at least try to, shape society according to their ideas and to their advantage.
Be it in the culture industry or Eisenhowers military–industrial complex.
And their interests change over time.
What was left-wing today is right-wing tomorrow and vice versa or finds itself on a completely different dimension of the political spectrum.
This is what I mean by the lack of a coherent narrative.
The 'new left' is traditionally (pun intended) referred to as the left that no longer invokes only the classical class antagonism of Marxism, but the thicket of countless social movements worldwide, in short, it is the left of the 1960s/70s.
So the term 'new' has been outdated here for decades.

So, no offense but considering that I am considered by these circles as a fascist, partly Nazi because I refer to Nietzsche, Heidegger, Ernst Junger, and a few other thinkers and writers despised by them, I think you still hit it well.
As Nietzsche did put it, that which does not kill us makes us stronger.
But still, my apologies.

I don't think they are comparable either, because the sheer barbarity of Hamas
appears to exceed even the atrocities in Ukraine. But the Palestinians have suffered, and not all of them are Hamas. They don't dare speak because of Hamas, and they catch it from the Israelis when Hamas strikes. I believe many are innocent and will suffer. But again, the job of ending Hamas must be achieved for the greater good of everyone in the end.

As in Ukraine, the best outcome would be to go all in to finish the job. Shorter conflict usually mean fewer casualties. A second carrier battle group is en route, also rapid deployment Marines, and Army personnel for medical and logistical support. This is a very heavy commitment, hopefully it will keep the conflict from spreading and help deter more attacks on Israel.

SB, you do get that I am not supporting Hamas, or their hideous crimes? I am supporting free speech on behalf the Palestinians, Israelis, whoever. Never mind the moral equivalent stuff, not every Palestinian is a sadistic killer. I spent a career in government service, sometimes dealing people who committed horrendous crimes. There are all kinds of victims in every story.

See not all students are out supporting terrorism.

Subject: Students march against university removing tampons from men's bathrooms | Fox News


""About 50 students marched across Clemson University on Wednesday to demand that menstrual products be returned to men's bathrooms in Cooper Library and that the Clemson College Republicans be reprimanded for their role in the tampons' removal," The College Fix wrote on Friday. "

🤔
They want College Republicans reprimanded for demanding tampon removal from men's restrooms, but these same liberal's say that they should not be reprimanded when they take part in protests supporting a group that killed, tortured, raped, burned alive, and kidnapped, men, women and children.

Where do all these students find the time? Between classes, homework and working to pay for my tuition and books, I didn't have a lot of free time when I went to college.

But I guess I can understand their outrage. I mean where would we all be without tampons in men's bathrooms?!!

Yes without the tampons, the blood will be on all our hands. 😉

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I'm bloody digressing, but shouldn't they collect the tampons and donate them to the Russian soldiers as tamponade for bullet wounds?
Pussies.

WTF? I had no idea this was for real or even a thing. I can barely work out why this might have happened in the first place. Let's not think about this at all…..😵‍💫

You might find this interesting.

"THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS – MAIN POINTS

=======================================

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August

18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the

territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive

manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the

basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad

(Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

Covenant:

Goals of the HAMAS:

------------------

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.' (Article 6)

On the Destruction of Israel:

-----------------------------

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'

(Article 11)

'Palestine is an Islamic land… Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

The Call to Jihad:

------------------

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.'

(Article 33)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

-------------------------------------------

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

----------------------------------------------

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

…Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

------------------------

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time … and have

accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,

they took control of the world media… With their money they stirred

revolutions in various parts of the globe… They stood behind the

French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the

revolutions we hear about… With their money they formed secret

organizations – such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -

which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies

and carry out Zionist interests… They stood behind World War I …

and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the

world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge

financial gains… There is no war going on anywhere without them

having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet

expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have

finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they

will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out

in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the

circle of struggle against World Zionism… Islamic groups all over

the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped

for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.'

(Article 32)"

.

SB, you do get that I am not supporting Hamas, or their hideous crimes?

Got it.

@arjuna

argued that the modern, liberal societies of their time, namely the Western democracies, carry strong fascist potentialities and that classical liberal democracy had been replaced by strong corporatist forces which, at least try to, shape society according to their ideas and to their advantage.

You know more details of this than I do, where I retain more general knowledge than specifics. And I have to say in this quote, their diagnoses may be right even if their treatment plan is a bloody nightmare. The US, for instance, moved down the path of Fascism under two Democrat presidents -- Woodrow Wilson and FDR, who were able to co-opt the free market via regulations and enforcement to enact their own social-economic visions. FDR's admin included centralized economic planning, industrial boards which set prices and wages and determined output goals, etc. All of which deepened and extended the Great Depression.

Maybe a free market society is more vulnerable to Fascism than Communism. Both are totalitarian Socialist system, but Fascism has a facade of the free market system in that it lets companies generate products and services so long as those companies don't conflict with the needs of the State. So you can make $$ and have a nice home, as long as you don't push back on the State-- for if you do you will be harassed and punished via the legal administrative state, doxed and deplatformed and memory-holed, your company pursued by tax agents and other regulatory agents, etc., and ultimately SWAT'd, charged and imprisoned. What are we seeing today in the US and the West? What did we see in Canada when truck drivers refused to do as commanded by the State?

I think many Leftists in the West don't realize how their support of Communism has actually resulted in creeping Fascism -- if you read the Democrat Socialists of America platform on the economy, what they had called "Stake-Holder Capitalism," you'd have trouble calling out the differences between their policies and those of Mussolini's Italy.

From your own link.
If you don't get the difference between:

"…I feel empathy for the people of Palestine."

and

"This is why I cry for the deaths of Palestinian and Israeli people."

and your own comment:

"Here's a Newsweek guest oped supporting Hamas:"

then how can we expect to take you seriously at all.