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"Eight Billion People : How evolution made it happen." Topic

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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP18 May 2023 8:56 p.m. PST




JMcCarroll19 May 2023 11:38 a.m. PST

We can reduce the worlds population to less than half if China and India are not counted. Just saying.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP19 May 2023 3:43 p.m. PST



Mark J Wilson20 May 2023 9:05 a.m. PST

Two comments on this: –
1) If we can interbreed we aren't a different species so Homo Sapiens and Home Neanderthalis are actaully all Homo Sapiens, but just like say breeds of dogs, some are different in body form. You have to remember that the people who speciated them knew nothing about DNA and might have been just a tiny bit racist.

2) Counting amounts either of cells or genetic material [because some things use RNA not DNA], is an interesting issue. If you count the cells in/on your body you are 90% bacteria, if you count the genetic material it's 99%.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP20 May 2023 3:18 p.m. PST



Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP21 May 2023 8:19 a.m. PST

If we can interbreed we aren't a different species

One comment. That's not what species means.


That's only one reference (and I hate it because it has spiders in it), but I encourage you to respond with citations from scientific and educational references that say that different species can't interbreed.

The idea that species can't interbreed is a mythology that formed out of, IMO, not having people with STEM degrees teach STEM topics in schools. Species, an 18th Century concept (as opposed to DNA, a 20th Century concept), is not a rigorous scientific standard. It is an idea that superimposes some degree of order on the concept of "living things".

Wolfhag Supporting Member of TMP21 May 2023 4:55 p.m. PST

Species, an 18th Century concept (as opposed to DNA, a 20th Century concept), is not a rigorous scientific standard. It is an idea that superimposes some degree of order on the concept of "living things".

Does that make it an artificial construct?


Mark J Wilson22 May 2023 8:51 a.m. PST

I'll see your Berkley and raise you a Nature. link

Mark J Wilson22 May 2023 8:57 a.m. PST


I'd suggest that species is a definition, while DNA is a material. While a definition may be regarded as an abstract idea I fail to see how DNA is in any way abstract until we get to the level of philosophy where everything is imaginary anyway.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP22 May 2023 1:38 p.m. PST

raise you a Nature

Which is the kind of science related material that has been corrupted by non-specialists overgeneralizing and dumbing material down.

The existence of the Westminster Dog Show is sufficient evidence that the statement that species cannot interbreed is false.

I guess if we're raising, I'll raise your un cited, unscientific general statement with actual research:

Interbreeding (producing fertile offspring vice just offspring) is a far more complex concept than species. Some members of the family Canidae can interbreed with others. Some can't. The fact that species A can interbreed with B and B can interbreed with C does not necessarily mean A can interbreed with C (though in most cases, they can).

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP22 May 2023 1:41 p.m. PST

Does that make it an artificial construct?

All definitions are intellectual constructs. The distinction is whether or not the definition relies on a scientific standard or not. Species does not.

Mark J Wilson23 May 2023 2:13 a.m. PST


If you think different breeds of dog are different species you need to go back to biology 101. As to your opinion of Nature I'm literally pissing myself laughing. I know it's my prostate problem really but……………..

As to your reference list the first has nothing to do with speciation and the second actually disproves your idea that dogs are different species. I stopped there, I hope you have the sense to as well.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP23 May 2023 11:22 a.m. PST

Perhaps your prostrate problem is constricting blood flow to your brain. Please show me where I say different breeds of dog are different species.

The reference list is a short list of examples where different species of dog have produced fertile offspring. Perhaps you should have stopped after actually reading the research instead of before.

Nature does not employ an editorial board of senior scientists, nor is it affiliated to a scientific society or institution.

Mark J Wilson24 May 2023 2:05 a.m. PST

"The existence of the Westminster Dog Show is sufficient evidence that the statement that species cannot interbreed is false".

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP24 May 2023 4:10 p.m. PST

So where does that statement bring up breeds of dog? It only talks about species.

Mark J Wilson25 May 2023 2:32 a.m. PST

Dogs shows are for different breeds of dog, all dogs are from the species Canis familiaris sometimes known as Canis lupus familiaris; as the second link in your long list observes.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP25 May 2023 4:39 a.m. PST

The Sulimov dog is a working dog. It is a cross-breed of canis aureus (a jackal) and a breed of canis familiaris (huskies). They make great herding dogs, and bomb/drug sniffing dogs. Recently (early 2000's) it was discovered that this cross breed occasionally happens outside specific breeding programs. Sulimovs are bred with themselves and someones cross bred back to huskies to make a quadroon (1/4 jackal).

The WDS has discussion and debates about Sulimovs are allowed in routinely. Independent of how those discussions come out any given year, the discussion happens because canis lupus familiaris can interbreed with other species. If it were impossible to cross breed among species, then these dogs (not just Sulimovs, but dozens of other crossbreeds) wouldn't exist, and neither would the debates.

So, yes, when you make up things that my sentence doesn't say and put them in the context of your statement that mixes common, non-scientific terms (dog) with scientific ones (cans lupus familiar), you certainly do get a mess. You could probably get that published in Nature.

So, are you going to actually answer my question and point you the part where I said breed = species or are you going to continue to bring up things that are not in the sentence?

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2023 3:26 p.m. PST

Thanks also…


Mark J Wilson26 May 2023 11:18 a.m. PST

Interesting, I've never heard of the Sulimov dog before. So we come back to the same position as sapiens and neanderthal, if they can interbreed and produce fertile offspring [this bit is important lots of things can interbreed, horses/donkeys lions/tigers, but the offspring are infertile; then they are not different species, they have been previously misclassified.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP26 May 2023 3:15 p.m. PST

Well, of the tens of thousands of cross species breeds, no actual scientists are reclassifying anything, because the ability to interbreed is not part of the definition of species used in science.

For example, the interbreeding of homo neanderthalensis and homo sapiens has been known for a couple of decades, yet they are still classified as separate species.

And the idea of species interbreeding creates a conflict where a species can interbreed with two other species that can't interbreed with each other.

Mark J Wilson27 May 2023 5:38 a.m. PST

Sigh, you found one example which was interesting, now there are tens of thousands, sounds a bit like a Donald Trump vote count or your assertion that Nature isn't one of the world's premier science journals because it isn't affiliated to an academic institution. The point of Scientific journals is that they are independent of a scientific institution so that they can be independent. Articles are not actually reviewed by the board, they are reviewed by experts in the field from a number of different institutions.

Mind you here are few of the editors: -
Francesca Cesari, Chief Biological, Clinical and Social Sciences Editor, London
Areas of responsibility include: overseeing editorial content and strategy, and team management.
Education: BSc, Università di Roma, La Sapienza; PhD, University of Tübingen; postdoctoral work, The Wellcome Trust/Cancer Research UK Gurdon Institute, Cambridge.

Victoria Aranda, Team Manager (Biotechnology, Cancer, Clinical research, Genetics, Metabolism), New York
Areas of responsibility include: cancer, translational & clinical medicine, gene therapy, genome editing, biotechnology.
Education: BSc, Biochemistry, and PhD, Biochemistry, University of Navarra, Spain; postdoctoral work, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory.

Darren Burgess, Senior Editor, London
Areas of responsibility include: biotechnology, genomics and clinical research.
Education: MBiochem, Biochemistry, University of Oxford; PhD, Cancer Genetics, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory School of Biological Sciences, New York; postdoctoral work, Institute of Cancer Research, London.

George Caputa, Senior Editor, Berlin
Areas of responsibility include: cellular and mitochondrial metabolism, organismal metabolism, environmental microbial metabolism, cardiac and vascular biology, physiology and therapy.
Education: BSc, Saint Louis University; PhD, Washington University in St. Louis; postdoctoral work, Max Planck Institute of Immunobiology and Epigenetics.

Barbara Marte, Senior Editor, London
Areas of responsibility include: cancer, cell cycle.
Education: Diploma in Human Biology, University of Marburg; PhD, Cell Biology, University of Basel; postdoctoral work, Imperial Cancer Research Fund.

Michelle Trenkmann, Senior Editor, Berlin
Areas of responsibility include: genetics, genomics and molecular evolution.
Education: Advanced degree in Biochemistry, University of Leipzig; PhD in Molecular Biology, University of Zurich; postdoctoral work, University College Dublin.

I-han Chou, Team Manager (Neuroscience, Public health, Social and behavioural sciences), San Francisco
Areas of responsibility include: neuroscience (including sensory and motor systems, decision making, decision making, executive function) health sciences.
Education: BA, Psychology, Harvard University; PhD, Brain and Cognitive Sciences, Massachusetts Institute of Technology; postdoctoral work, University of California, San Francisco.

Cold Spring Harbour, The Max Plank Institute, MIT, cheap tawdry places all you say???

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP28 May 2023 7:01 a.m. PST

Cold Spring Harbour, The Max Plank Institute, MIT, cheap tawdry places all you say???

Again, you're making up things I didn't say. I said the information you provided from Nature mag was non specialist

The point of Scientific journals is that they are independent of a scientific institution so that they can be independent.

So is Nature independent of these institutions or is its credibility established by them? Pick a side. At least be consistent in one post.

Of course, these people do not belong to those institutions; they went to them once. But if you want to invoke those institutions, here is research from the ones you listed that talk about interspecies hybrids:


There are a couple dozen references to cross-species hybrids in those articles. How many more do you want? Let's see withing the canis family: canis familiaris (dog), lupus (grey wolf), canislatrans (coyote), canisaureus (gplden jacka), canislupaster (African wolf), canissimensis (Ethiopian wolf), cuon alpinus (dhole), Lycaon pictus (African wild dog) can all interbreed (across species and genus boundaries). That's 28 right there.


Or this …

Phylum Chordata

Class Chondrichthyes
Order Carcharhiniformes
Family Carcharhinidae
Genus Carcharhinus
A group of about 50 hybrids between Australian blacktip shark and the larger common blacktip shark was found by Australia's East Coast in 2012. This is the only known case of hybridization in sharks.[1]
Class Actinopterygii
Order Acipenseriformes
In 2020 hybrids were announced from different families of fish, American paddlefish (Polyodon spathula) and Russian sturgeon (Acipenser gueldenstaedtii). Accidentally created by Hungarian scientists, they are dubbed "sturddlefish."[2]
Order Cichliformes
Family Cichlidae
Blood parrot cichlid, which is probably created by breeding a redhead cichlid and a Midas cichlid (Amphilophus citrinellus) or red devil cichlid (Amphilophus labiatus). It was bred in 1986 in Taiwan.
Order Perciformes
Family Centrarchidae
Subfamily Lepominae
Genus Lepomis
Greengill sunfish, a hybrid between a bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus) and green sunfish (Lepomis cyanellus).
Pumpkinseed x bluegill sunfish, a hybrid between a pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus) and a bluegill (Lepomis macrochirus).
Class Amphibia
Order Urodela
Family Ambystomatidae
Genus Ambystoma
In 2007 hybrids of a California tiger salamander and a barred tiger salamander were discovered to be able to survive easier than their parent species.[3]
Class Reptilia
Order Squamata
Suborder Anguimorpha
Family Varanidae
Genus Varanus
Subgenus Varanus
Hybrid between Varanus panoptes horni and Varanus gouldii flavirufus.[4]
Superfamily Lacertoidea
Family Teiidae
Hybrid between Aspidoscelis exsanguis and Aspidoscelis inornatus.
Hybrids between the yellow ball python and the woma python.[4]
Hybrids between the ball python and the Borneo short-tailed python.[4]
The hybrid Borneo bat eater, between a Burmese python and reticulated python,[5] can be further hybridized with another reticulated python.[4]
Hybrids between Ball python and reticulated python.[4]
Genus Python
Around 2018, 13 hybrids of Burmese pythons (Python bivittatus) and Indian pythons (Python molurus) among 400 invasive Burmese pythons studied in South Florida were found by the United States Geological Survey.[6]
Family Boidae
Hybrids between Columbian boa and yellow anaconda.[4]
Genus Corallus
Hybrid between emerald tree boa and Amazon tree boa.[4]
Family Colubridae
A fertile cross between a king snake and a corn snake. One example is a cross between a California kingsnake and a corn snake called the "jungle corn snake."[7][8]
Genus Lampropeltis
A fertile cross between a California kingsnake and Pueblan milk snake is called an "imperial Pueblan milk snake."[9][8]
A fertile cross between a California kingsnake and whitesided black rat snake (Pantherophis obsoletus).[8][10]
L. triangulum
A fertile cross between an imperial Pueblan milk snake and Honduran milk snake.[8]
Infraorder Gekkota
Family Diplodactylidae
Hybrid of chahoua gecko and crested gecko.[4]
Order Crocodilia
Family Crocodylidae
Genus Crocodylus
Hybridization between the endemic Cuban crocodile (Crocodylus rhombifer) and the widely distributed American crocodile (Crocodylus acutus) is causing conservation problems for the former species as a threat to its genetic integrity.[11]
Saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) have mated with Siamese crocodiles (Crocodylus siamensis) in captivity producing offspring which in many cases have grown over 20 feet (6.1 metres) in length. It is likely that wild hybridization occurred historically in parts of southeast Asia.
Order Testudines
Suborder Cryptodira
Superfamily Chelonioidea
Family Cheloniidae
A hybrid between a hawksbill sea turtle (Eretmochelys imbricata) and loggerhead sea turtle (Caretta caretta).[4]
Superfamily Testudinoidea
Family Testudinidae
A hybrid between a sulcata tortoise (Centrochelys sulcata) and leopard tortoise (Stigmochelys pardalis).[4]
Family Emydidae
Subfamily Deirochelyinae
Hybrid between red-eared slider and Ouachita map turtle.[4]
Genus Trachemys
Species T. scripta
The hybrid between a red-eared slider and a yellow-bellied slider.[4]
Class Mammalia
Clade Ungulata
Order Perissodactyla
Suborder Hippomorpha
Family Equidae – Equid hybrids
Horses can breed with Przewalski's horse to produce fertile hybrids.
Mule, a cross of female horse and a male donkey.
Hinny, a cross between a female donkey and a male horse. Mule and hinny are examples of reciprocal hybrids.
Kunga, a cross between a donkey and a Syrian wild ass.
Zeedonk or zonkey, a zebra/donkey cross.
Zorse, a zebra/horse cross
Zony or zetland, a zebra/pony cross ("zony" is a generic term; "zetland" is specifically a hybrid of the Shetland pony breed with a zebra)
Superfamily Rhinocerotoidea
Family Rhinocerotidae
Hybrids between black and white rhinoceroses have been recognized.
Order Artiodactyla
Family Bovidae – Bovid hybrids
Subfamily Bovinae
Dzo, zo or yakow; a cross between a domestic cow/bull and a yak.
Beefalo, a cross of an American bison and a domestic cow. This is a fertile breed; this, along with mitochondrial DNA evidence,[12] has led bison to occasionally be classified in the genus Bos.
Zubron, a hybrid between wisent (European bison) and domestic cow.
Yakalo, a hybrid between a bison and a yak.
Fertile hybrids between bongos (Tragelaphus eurycerus) and sitatungas (Tragelaphus spekii) have occurred in captivity.[13]
Subfamily Caprinae
Sheep-goat hybrids, such as the toast of Botswana.
Family Camelidae
Cama, a cross between a male dromedary and a female llama, also an intergeneric hybrid.
Dromedary and Bactrian camels can crossbreed and produce a one large-humped Hybrid camel.
Huarizo, a cross between a male llama and a female alpaca.
Infraorder Cetacea
Family Balaenopteridae
Hybrids between blue whales (Balaenoptera musculus) and fin whales (Balaenoptera physalus) have been recorded.
Family Delphinidae
Wholphin, a fertile but very rare cross between a false killer whale and a bottlenose dolphin.
In 2014, DNA analysis showed the clymene dolphin (Stenella clymene) to be a naturally occurring hybrid species descended from the spinner dolphin (Stenella longirostris) and the striped dolphin (Stenella coeruleoalba).[14]
Family Monodontidae
In 2019, a "Narluga" hybrid of a male beluga (Delphinapterus leucas) and a female narwhal (Monodon monoceros) was confirmed by DNA analysis.[15]
Order Carnivora
Infraorder Arctoidea
Family Ursidae
Ursid hybrids, such as the grizzly-polar bear hybrid, occur between all species except for the giant panda.
Suborder Feliformia
Family Felidae (see Felid hybrids); various other wild cat crosses are known involving the lynx, bobcat, leopard, serval, etc.
Subfamily Felinae
Savannah cats are the hybrid cross between an African serval cat and a domestic cat
Bengal cat, a cross between the Asian leopard cat and the domestic cat, one of many hybrids between the domestic cat and wild cat species. The domestic cat, African wild cat and European wildcat may be considered variant populations of the same species (Felis silvestris), making such crosses non-hybrids.
Serengeti, a hybrid crossbreed of a Bengal and an Oriental Shorthair.
Chausie, a hybrid between a jungle cat and domestic cat.
Subfamily Pantherinae
Genus Panthera
Ligers and tigons (crosses between a lion and a tiger) and other Panthera hybrids such as the lijagulep.
Species P. tigris
A hybrid between a Bengal tiger and a Siberian tiger is an example of an intra-specific hybrid.
Family Canidae
Fertile canid hybrids occur between coyotes, wolves, dingoes, jackals and domestic dogs.
Family Mustelidae
Polecat–ferret hybrids and polecat–mink hybrids.
Order Primates
Suborder Haplorhini
Infraorder Simiiformes
Family Hominidae
Genus Pongo
Hybrid orangutan, a hybrid between a Bornean orangutan and Sumatran orangutan.
Genus Homo
Some living Homo sapiens have genes from the extinct Homo neanderthalensis indicating hybridization in the past
Order Proboscidea
Family Elephantidae
At Chester Zoo in the United Kingdom, a cross between an African elephant (male) and an Asian elephant (female). The male calf was named Motty. It died of intestinal infection after ten days.
Class Aves
Order Strigiformes
Family Strigidae
Genus Strix
Hybrids between spotted owls and barred owls[16]
Order Passeriformes
The domestic canary (Serinus canaria var. domesticus, family Fringillidae) has hybridized with other perching birds including the blue-black grassquit (Volatinia jacarina, family Thraupidae), the chestnut-capped blackbird (Agelaius ruficapillus, family Icteridae), and the red fody (Foudia madagascariensis, family Ploceidae). A fertile egg was made from the domestic canary and the chestnut-shouldered petronia (Petronia xanthocollis, family Passeridae) but there has been no mention of hatched hybrids.[17]
The red-crested cardinal (Paroaria coronata, family Thraupidae) has hybridized between the northern cardinal (Cardinalia cardinalis, family Cardinalidae), shiny cowbird (Molothrus bonariensis, family Icteridae), and chestnut-capped blackbird.[17]
The yellowhammer (Emberiza citrinella, family Emberizidae) has hybridized with the European greenfinch (Carduelis chloris) and the European goldfinch (Carduelis carduelis), both of the family Fringillidae.
The cut-throat (Amadina fasciata, family Estrildidae) has hybridized with the Eurasian linnet (Carduelis cannabina, family Fringillidae) and the orange bishop (Euplectes franciscanus, family Ploceidae).
Family Fringillidae
Cagebird breeders sometimes breed hybrids between species of finch, such as goldfinch x canary. These birds are known as mules.
Order Psittacidae
Subfamily Arinae
Tribe Arini
Numerous macaw hybrids are also known.
Order Accipitriformes
Family Accipitridae
Red kite and black kite: five bred unintentionally at a falconry center in England. (It is reported[weasel words] that the black kite (the male) refused female black kites but mated with two female red kites.)
Red-shouldered hawk (Buteo lineatus) and common black hawk (Buteogallus anthracinus): one and possibly two offspring produced naturally in Sonoma County, California, US.[18]
Order Falconiformes
Family Falconidae
Genus Falco
Hybrids between gyrfalcons and sakers are known
Order Anseriformes
Family Anatidae
The mulard duck, hybrid of the domestic Pekin duck and domesticated Muscovy ducks.
Brewer's duck, hybrid of the mallard and gadwall.
Genus Anas
In Australia, New Zealand and other areas where the Pacific black duck occurs, it is hybridised by the much more aggressive introduced mallard. This is a concern to wildlife authorities throughout the affected area, as it is seen as genetic pollution of the black duck gene pool.
Hybrids between Greylag goose (Anser anser) and Canada goose (Branta canadensis).
Order Galliformes
Gamebird hybrids, hybrids between gamebirds and domestic fowl, including chickens, guineafowl and peafowl, interfamilial hybrids.
Family Phasianidae
Genus Tetrao
Western capercaillies are known to hybridise occasionally with black grouse (these hybrids being known by the German name rackelhahn) and the closely related black-billed capercaillie.
Phylum Arthropoda
Class Insecta
Order Hymenoptera
Family Apidae
Genus Apis
Killer bees were created in an attempt to breed tamer and more manageable bees. This was done by crossing a European honey bee and an African bee, but instead the offspring became more aggressive and highly defensive bees that have escaped into the wild.[dubious – discuss][citation needed]
Order Blattodea
Family Rhinotermitidae
Genus Coptotermes
The Asian termite and Formosan termite are an invasive hybrid in Florida.[19]
Order Lepidoptera
Family Nymphalidae
Genus: Limenitis
The white admiral, Limenitis arthemis, and the viceroy (Limenitis archippus) can breed with each other and produce a hybrid known as a Rubidus
Family Pieridae
Genus: Colias
Colias eurytheme and C. philodice butterflies have enough genetic compatibility to produce viable hybrid offspring. Hybrid speciation may have produced Heliconius butterflies, but that is disputed.[20]
Family Papilionidae
Genus Battus
The Coeruloaurean swallowtail is a hybrid produced by a Pipevine swallowtail (Battus philenor) mating with a Goldrim swallowtail (Battus polydamas).[21] As the ranges of these two species overlap, the hybrid can be encountered in nature.

Voloder D (3 January 1012). "Print Email Facebook Twitter More World-first hybrid sharks found off Australia". ABC News. Retrieved 5 January 2012.
July 2020, Stephanie Pappas-Live Science Contributor 20 (20 July 2020). "Scientists accidentally create 'impossible' hybrid fish". Retrieved 2020-08-05. {{cite web}}: |first= has generic name (help)
Live Science Staff (18 September 2007). "Slimy Salamanders Caught Crossbreeding". Live Science. Retrieved 2019-12-01.
"Hybrid Reptiles: The Good, the Bad, and the Beautiful". ReptiFiles. 2016-09-09. Retrieved 2019-12-01.
"Borneo bateater". Natural History. Retrieved 2019-12-01.
"Genetic Analysis of Florida's Invasive Pythons Reveals A Tangled Family Tree". Retrieved 2019-12-01.
"Jungle Corn Snakes". Bane Reptiles. Retrieved 2019-12-09.
"Hybrids". Southern California Kingsnakes. Retrieved 2019-12-09.
"Imperial Pueblan milk snake". Retrieved 2019-12-09.
Charles (21 March 2017). "White Sided Black Rat Snake-baby". Strictly Reptiles. Retrieved 2019-12-09.
"Crocodilian Exploration". Science and Exploration. Archived from the original on 26 February 2009.
Guo S, Liu J, Qi D, Yang J, Zhao X (2006). "Taxonomic placement and origin of yaks: implications from analyses of mtDNA D-loop fragment sequences". Acta Theriologica Sinica. 26 (4): 325–30.
Koulischer, L.; Tijskens, J.; Mortelmans, J. (1973). "Chromosome studies of a fertile mammalian hybrid: the offspring of the cross bongo × sitatunga (Bovoidea)". Chromosoma. 41 (3): 265–70. doi:10.1007/BF00344021. PMID 4691550. S2CID 7987737.
Choi CQ (13 January 2014). "DNA Discovery Reveals Surprising Dolphin Origins". National Geographic News. Retrieved 18 January 2019.
Saey TH (20 June 2019). "DNA confirms a weird Greenland whale was a narwhal-beluga hybrid". Science News. Retrieved 2019-11-07.
Hamer T (April 1994). "Hybridization Between Barred and Spotted Owls" (PDF). The Auk: Ornithological Advances. 111 (2): 487–92. Retrieved 5 March 2019.
Eugene M McCarthy (September 2006). "Handbook of Avian Hybrids of the World". The Quarterly Review of Biology. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. 81 (3): 294. doi:10.1086/509448. ISBN 0-19-518323-1. ISSN 0033-5770.
Moore S, Coulson JO (March 2020). "Intergeneric hybridization of a vagrant Common Black Hawk and a Red-shouldered Hawk". Journal of Raptor Research. 54 (1): 74–80. doi:10.3356/0892-1016-54.1.74.
Geggel L (30 March 2015). "'Super' Termite Hybrid May Wreak Havoc on Florida Animals". Retrieved 2019-12-01.
Brower AV (May 2011). "Hybrid speciation in Heliconius butterflies? A review and critique of the evidence". Genetica. 139 (5): 589–609. doi:10.1007/s10709-010-9530-4. PMC 3089819. PMID 21113790.
[https: auction https: auction {{cite web}}: Check |url= value (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
McConchie C (August 1994). "Intergeneric Hybridisation between Litchi (Litchi chinensis Sonn.) and Longan (Dimocarpus longan Lour.)". Annals of Botany. 74 (2): 111–18. doi:10.1006/anbo.1994.1100. ISSN 0305-7364.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP28 May 2023 4:22 p.m. PST



Mark J Wilson29 May 2023 2:17 a.m. PST

Still not hundreds of thousands and many of these hybrids are not fertile, the important point. Fertile interbreeding is very different genetically from infertile.
I did find an article that sort of supported your view, well it pointed out that a few scientists want to redefine speciation away from the common standard. Funnily they all seem to have a vested interested in dog species and keeping them speciated despite their being able to interbreed. I'd quote the reference but it's by a newspaper writer so not what you'd call a serious scientist.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP29 May 2023 12:19 p.m. PST

hundreds of thousands

So, I asked how many you wanted. Maybe instead of telling me, you could go to the bio sciences branch of every institution you listed and ask for their list of cross-species breeding research.

And you keep running off on made-up tangents instead of dealing with the original assertion that species can interbreed. Even one example contradicts that. In fact the designations of the two as separate species in the article decades later contradicts the assertion that species can't interbreed.

Well, I do give up. If you think a hundred thousand equals ten thousand, then I have no basis to continue conversation. Not the worst instance of you making up things I didn't say, but the straw that broke the camel's back.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.