"Ukrainian attacks from Orikhiv" Topic

Orikhiv…What happens when the ZSU tries some sort of a ‘bigger counterattack', ‘nevertheless', was nicely demonstrated in quite a dramatic fashion, sometimes around 16th-18th March, in the area directly south of Orikhiv (southern Zaporizhzhya), or in the Pologovsky area, further east. Really, not 100% sure about all the geographic details. Nor even about the scope and purpose of this effort: some are describing it as ‘reconnaissance in force', others as ‘local counterattacks', and characters like Rybar are claiming this all happened the last two or three days, while it actually happened about a week ago…

….not sure what of Ukrainian units were involved, either: perhaps the 65th Mech?

Everything started reasonably well, with Ukrainians — well-supported by artillery, and even by few air strikes — smashing the first line of Russian defence and then driving their T-72s and (Dutch-donated, but hopelessly obsolete) YPR-765 infantry armoured vehicles into the Russian rear.

However, it seems Ukrainian military intelligence missed the deployment of the GRU's 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade some six to seven kilometres behind the frontline. And, as already described (at least one if not two months ago), the Spetsnaz is nowadays largely used as ‘heavily-armed, line infantry' by Gerasimov. No matter if it's VSRF's Spetsnaz, or that of the GRU: it's deployed in the second line of defence, and acting as ‘safety' for the case Ukrainians break through…and that worked well in this case.

While flanking Russian units to their left and right, Ukrainians drove straight in front of the Spetsnaz brigade, and then got hit by a murderous combination of artillery and ATGMs, and then by the VKS. Here's one of related video (at least YP-765s don't blow up to pieces when hit, like ‘better than Bradley'-BMP-3s), and here a link to account by one of troops of the 22nd, who's claiming he's knocked out five tanks with his ATGM. Essentially, videos and this account are mutually confirming, and I have little doubts that the involved ZSU troops came away with a very unpleasant experience (and opinions about their superiors, too).

That kind of things happens when there's insufficient reconnaissance, and even if there's artillery around, there's not enough of it to hit both, the first and the second line of Russian defence, and the Russian artillery — all at the same time….

Tom Cooper, 24 March 2023.

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Perhaps a description of the same attack, @GeromanAT, Mar 19, 2023.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Artillery superiority is one of the reasons floated for why Ukraine hasn't risked concentrating for large attacks. Given what the Ukrainians have done with less to the Russians and here you can see the risks are real.

Failure of reconnaissance is as old as the hills. I think there were a number of similar attacks over the same period which generated some footage and didn't all run into Spetsnaz Brigades, which if the Ukrainians are going to try a more general offensive in the coming months may be the key question. Just how many reliable and capable units do they have to form a second line. I'm guessing the description 'heavy infantry' rather than say 'mechanised' means they may have been dug in with limited mobility. Some thing which would also limit there ability to be everywhere they are needed.

Spetsnaz units with appropriate equipment might prove quite effective in manning static second line defensive positions, but that is not exactly a tactical role they were originally designed and trained for.

Well, sad to see but such is war. You cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs… I have never thought Ukraine would win without taking losses, everybody takes losses in war.

Of course I wish this counterattack to be more succesful but you win some and lose some. Hopefully Ukraine learned some lessons and can apply that knowledge to future operations.

The allies won WWII despite some massive cXXk-ups (such as Dieppe, Market Garden and some attacks in Normandie)

The root cause may be as simple as the Spetsnaz having enough discipline and fieldcraft for their positions to not look like the aftermath of an illegal rave… Though frankly I would have thought by this stage natural selection would have ensured most Russian units would have learnt this the hard way.

The Ukrainians counter-attack was doing well. However, on the offense you will take losses. The Spetsnaz may be Russia's best.

but that is not exactly a tactical role they were originally designed and trained for.

Yes, they are far from their original mission. How many Spetsnaz do the Russians have ? There may not be enough to act in their current roll ? Everywhere on the battlefield. When the Ukraine goes on a general offensive, probably as soon as the promised US/NATO, etc. equipment, gets there.

I think we see here is the Spetsnaz are better trained, motivated and lead than the standard Russian Infantry. They can work well in the defense as we see here. How will they perform in the offense ? Probably better than other Russian Infantry.

They must have been dug in deep and well camouflaged. For the Ukrainian recon drones to not see them ? Did they use any recon drones ?

(at least YP-765s don't blow up to pieces when hit, like ‘better than Bradley'-BMP-3s)

I'm not so sure about that. Have the M2s even made it to the Ukraine ? The YP-765 is based on the M113 chassis. But improved, however is it better than the M2 ? I don't think so ?

'better than Bradley' is a (sarcastic) adjective to describe the BMP-3. A Russian must have said that BMP-3s are better than Bradleys.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

I thought that might be the case. But I didn't know for sure. Thanks !