"Russia & China sign new economic pact" Topic

Gee, didn't see this coming…after years of non-stop anti-Russian propaganda that drove Russia eastward even before the invasion of Ukraine, and over-heated rhetoric about regime change and war crimes for Putin (but still not for Xi's genocide of the Uyghur…maybe too much $$$ at stake to him off??), Russia has decided its economic future lays with China and is flipping the bird to the West and the US.

Brilliant diplomacy by the current POTUS and Western leaders. In two short years they unraveled 50 years of work designed to keep Russia and China from allying…bravo, well done!!

Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping sign economic deal in latest demonstration of 'friendship without limits'
Putin touted plans to create a gas pipeline from Siberia to China

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China's only ally is China. Everything else is theater. They would sell Putin out in a second. And will. Brilliant diplomacy…by phony autocrats. I'll skip the blaming thing.

Excellent points SBminisguy. A Western own-goal for which no one will be held accountable.

Ha, just laughable nonsense, propaganda and political theatre from 2 shunned dictators. Suprised anyone on this Forum is actually fooled by this?!

Right. Like they needed to meet at all. China already owns Putin, controls much of his economy, as Xi repairs his own economic slowdown by helping Russia get past the sanctions.

But Xi must take care. As noted in much of the media, the last thing he wants is for the West to impose sanctions on HIM. Or constrain his vulnerable supply lines. Xi's deals go for dodgy and easily dominated countries. No Nobel peace prize likely. It's a game of Monopoly for him.

Xi's war is economic, his military a playing piece. It's not the current POTUS that caused this. Xi picked up other markets while US consumers paid the price for the tariffs and our farm economy required massive government bailouts. And lest we forget, the global economy was upended by an historic pandemic, a game changer.

Sanctions are never perfect, but even a slight impediment to China's post Covid recovery will upset Xi's plans.

Poor innocent Russia. They would be such great friends to the west, and such reliable and well intentioned trade partners, if only we had been nicer to them. It was very cruel of us to force them to invade their neighbor and commit untold numbers of warcrimes.

They would be such great friends to the west, and such reliable and well intentioned trade partners, if only we had been nicer to them.

In a sense, yes. Russia's natural ties are with the West, not with China. And OUR natural interests are in keeping Russia and China from allying. So if you approach the issue rationally you see it in our best interests to use this tired dusty old tool called "diplomacy" and negotiation to accomplish those goals.

Instead, for years prior to this war we've had non-stop attacks on Russia by parties and Party who used to know better, in order to meet domestic political goals, which quashed attempts by the prior POTUS and others to form a rapprochement with Russia. A relationship which could perhaps have prevented the current war from happening and from the new Sino-Russian alliance that Xi and Putin just announced at in-person meeting in Moscow.

So now we're all pretty much frucked. From peace to the brink of WW3 in record speed…

Xi Jinping delivers a chilling message for the West as he tells 'dear friend' Vladimir Putin 'change is coming that hasn't happened in 100 years… and we are driving it' on day Russian despot said UK risked 'nuclear collision' with its aid to Ukraine

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I don't think "natural ties" is an idea with much substance in this day and age. But Russia and China have had ties, unnatural or otherwise, for a long time. They have grudgingly helped each other through several conflicts in the past. I don't see it as in any way surprising that they would entertain the possibility of further cooperation today.

I don't pretend to be a very sophisticated student of geo politics, but the shift of American conservatives to become Russia apologists has been very surprising for me. I just genuinely did not see that change coming a few years back. But here we are.

We have Ukraine on the one hand, a country where men and women are literally fighting in the streets of their home towns with no other purpose than to defend their country and expel a remarkably brutal invader. On the other hand we have a dictator who launched an unprovoked attack on a neighbor, whose security Russia had, along with the US, made pledges to protect. He has lied at every turn about his intentions and motivations, and wages brutal crackdowns on his own people as well when they commit the crime of telling the truth about what is going on.

I know I must be very naive, but I am just genuinely surprised that conservatives now see Russia as the aggrieved party.

The preparations in early 2021 were not a spur of the moment thing.
Perhaps the "rapprochement" of the previous POTUS was misinterpreted. We know very little of what was discussed between the two. And given some of the subsequent remarks …

I know I must be very naive, but I am just genuinely surprised that conservatives now see Russia as the aggrieved party.

Nah, you're misinterpreting concern and questions for siding with Russia.

1. This was preventable. The current US Admin frucked up big time and war was the price

2. Open ended forever war much?? Along with the unachievable war aims, chest thumping and so on, is the "in it as long as it takes, whatever it takes" foolishness of our yammering classes. There are no clear achievable goals -- dragging Putin to the Hague for War Crimes is not achievable, neither is taking back Sevastopol. We've moved from clear goals -- the ejection of Russian troops from Ukraine and possibly resecuring the Donbas area to grandiose chest thumping.

3. The war is hugely disruptive and costly in lives, infrastructure, $$$ and the global economic system -- where are the peace talks? Any "normal" war would see round the clock diplomacy to stop the fighting -- and this can be done as you're helping Ukraine defend itself.

4. War profiteering on a massive scale is likely taking place because the US is shoveling cash and equipment to Ukraine at an unprecedented scale while the US itself is in economic trouble. How much is enough? Where's the oversight? Where's the accountability? We've seen the stories about US arms and aid showing up in other countries, what else is being sold out the back door? What about Blackrock and other major, politically connected large banks managing US aid and loans to Ukraine -- does Blackrock own Ukraine now? And how's the working out, I mean, the mega-crypto FTX failure was also involved in Ukraine -- did you know that prior to FTX's multi-billion $$$$ collapse that entity was helping manage foreign aid for Ukraine?

5. I am surprised at how the "traditional" party of peace, the Democrats, have become fierce war hawks ready to go all the way to nuclear war over Ukraine. Where's Code Pink and Move On? Where are the peace rallies? Not to mention for my entire adult life the Democrats had been the party of appeasement towards Russia and only became combative after the 2016 US presidential election loss and the creation of the Trump-Russia excuse for their loss (not that their candidate sucked and ran a poor campaign). So I have trouble believing them as they wave the bloody shirt and scream down anyone who questions their war aims and their prosecution of the war.

These are all real serious questions, and to raise them or point out the blunders that got us here does not make you a Russian apologist or Putin Puppet.

What say you?

Given what I said above, the build-up beginning in early 2021 and the planning have taken place much earlier, how do you reason that the current US administration caused the war (your point #1)?

Given what I said above, the build-up beginning in early 2021 and the planning have taken place much earlier, how do you reason that the current US administration caused the war (your point #1)?

1. *Because Biden said Putin could attack Ukraine.*

Have we forgotten that when Putin built up troops on the border, Biden came out and said that the US would not react to a "minor incursion"??

Biden's ‘minor incursion' comment roils diplomatic efforts to halt Russian invasion of Ukraine

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2. Then compound that with Putin's prior history with Biden and his former boss Obama. Putin's provocations evoked no response from them in the past. Biden as VP and Obama as POTUS took no action after Putin annexed Georgian territory, or when Putin carved off the Donbas and annexed Crimea.

Furthermore, since taking office the current Admin has signaled and shown global weakness, especially with the dramatic "own side" fiasco failure in Afghanistan which is as dramatic and devastating as the US's retreat from Vietnam; apologies to Iran for the prior POTUS taking out the RG commander causing turmoil in Iraq, etc.

So why wouldn't Putin think he might be able to get away with what he wanted to do?

That's exactly how the Korean War started. When asked about US security concerns in Asia, the US Sec State Dean Acheson described the US East Asian "defense perimeter" and didn't include South Korea. North Korea and the USSR took this to mean the US didn't care if North Korea seized South Korea.

And it's how we got the Gulf War. When asked about Iraq's dispute with Kuwait over slant drilling accusations, then US Ambassador April Glaspie flippantly remarked that "How Arab states resolve their disputes is of no concern to the US." Saddam took that to mean he could attack Kuwait and the US wouldn't care.

So again, Putin put troops on the Ukrainian border and then Biden says the US won't react to a "minor incursion," well, Putin took him at his word and launched a focused blitzkrieg to try and take Kiev and install a Russian puppet leader.

So now where do we go from here??

We have had a foreign policy warning, but I think there is more than one side to this story.

The tariff policy of the previous admin caused major hardship for American farmers and required massive ongoing bailouts. Every American family paid big bucks in higher costs since the tariff expenses were simply passed on to us.

It was quite a bizzare move, in my opinion, and a low point in the history of American foreign policy. I can only imagine Xi's reaction to this, but he is bound to have drawn conclusions that helped lead us to today's situation. Whatever answer appears from right wing media, it will almost certainly not reference the previous admin's personal financial dealings with the Chinese either. The extent of this is for some other forum.

We very often talk about weakness in the current leadership[. Maybe so, maybe not. Lets just leave that alone for a minute.

IMO the beginning of Putin's latest plans occurred in Helsinki. US conduct there stunned many Americans and many of our allies. I can still remember the smile on Putin's face at the end of the meeting.

Since only one person has the translator's notes and there were no others allowed in this meeting, we will never know exactly what happened, regardless of what is said. But the post meeting statements did incalculable damage to US prestige and credibility, not to mention morale in the US.

IMO this was the green light for Putin and XI as much as anything. They had no reason to think there would not be a second term as is typical in the US, and felt they had owned us. But then came the post election chaos, and they could easily conclude that there might never be a better time to advance their agendas. Divided by our own anxieties, pushed along by Xi and Putin and their cyber influencers, the table had been set.

We are wargamers and we all know what a divided foe means to an opponent.

So there you have it. A slight counter opinion to the often expressed view here that the current leadership is weak. Entirely my opinion. I am thrilled by no politicians, but it has seemed unfair and unbalanced not to look at both sides.

We know we can't trust either Russia or China … China at this point Xi is winning geopolitically. Plus, Russia should be a pariah state for some time.

Also had another victory recently that could be a game changer. Xi got two arch enemies talking – the KSA & Iran. Some in the US leadership, etc., should not have called the Prince of KSA a murderer, even though he was/is.

Taking the moral high ground is generally a good idea. But our Leadership should have chosen the "Realpolitik" option. They ed off the KSA … They were the bulwark against Iran.

If this was a game of Risk … the KSA's pieces were replaced by a new color.

KSA and Iran. Agree this was badly handled, especially with Israel now in some turmoil and protesting alleged autocratic rule there. Without a strong and focused Israel, nothing goes well in the region. KSA have never been friends of the US. They have oil, we have military hardware. They gouged us for decades, killed us at the pumps, made trillions over time. They are brutal, but now was not the right time to alienate them.

Much as I dislike drilling in Alaska, we need transition oil and other diverse sources of energy to get rid of these guys once and for all. With the chip initiative, our own oil and gas, better battery tech., we will be better off.

Todays warfare is economic as well as military. China needs Russian oil in case we blockade their Middle East shipments, which we will do if they go after Taiwan. They are girding for economic battle with us. They are using Putin, propping him up.
I will say it again, imo, China's only ally is China. Putin has the nukes and whatever Xi sells him or trades for oil. China is almost the only nation accepting rubles, I believe. Xi is the one who wants it all.
Again, all my opinion. Getting too bold in my old age…

KSA have never been friends of the US.

But we bought their oil and sold them state of the art weapons systems. Even when we were energy independent, not so long ago, they still bought our weapons. We really have very few real friends in the Mid-East. Save for Israel, of course. But the US leadership has alienated them a bit too. Too many don't see the big picture. Or their global view is thru rose colored glasses.

I know I must be very naive, but I am just genuinely surprised that conservatives now see Russia as the aggrieved party.

I find it surprising and alarming myself. I'm an old breed conservative and it seems that there is a malignant strain of populism in the conservative wing. They have since taken the assumed the title and call anyone else pretenders. Strange indeed.

conservatives now see Russia as the aggrieved party.

In the USA ?

We really have very few real friends in the Mid-East. Save for Israel, of course. But the US leadership has alienated them a bit too.

The Kurds were friends. But we abandoned them.

I know I must be very naive, but I am just genuinely surprised that conservatives now see Russia as the aggrieved party.
I find it surprising and alarming myself. I'm an old breed conservative and it seems that there is a malignant strain of populism in the conservative wing.

I don't see that at all -- I see concern about an endless war with no achievable war aims into which the US is pouring endless money and resources. And on the other hand all of the peace movements seem to have evaporated -- where's Code Pink and Move One? Where's Green Peace? The Democrats and their pet peace movements have become Warhawks (or perhaps War Pigs) waving the bloody shirt at any who question the path we're on.

I see concern about an endless war with no achievable war aims into which the US is pouring endless money and resources.

Endless? It's been a little over a year. How many years were we in Iraq and Afghanistan? We've contributed about 5.6% of defense expenditures to the Ukraine War and lost no active duty members lives that I'm aware…in exchange we've helped maintain security for our NATO partners in Eastern Europe, assisted a sovereign nation from invasion and have seen Russia's military worn down to the point they are pulling T-54s from mothballs.

where's Code Pink and Move One?

As for Code Pink, they have a march on the White House in mid March where they will be demanding a ceasefire in Ukraine and opposition to NATO. As far as I'm aware it's not the first that they've had. Last one of these I witnessed, I saw plenty of Russian flags in attendance.

Xi and Putin are only winners in their own minds after this bro-fest. They are the sole authorities in their nations, they need no signed agreements. They remain a dodgy pair to most of the western world.

Trust nothing they say or do. Isolate them through global unity and maintain military strength, which we are doing.

Worried about woke? Don't bother. The Chinese army spends far more time on political indoctrination training than we ever will. Most people think woke has gone overboard, have their own take. In China they would not dare question their training.

What they have over us is unity of purpose through enforced loyalty. We remain a danger to ourselves even in the face of foreign dictators. See the spy balloon? That's somebody's fault! Let's argue politics! While our own elites laugh all the way to their off shore banks.

Imagine a Re-United States of America vs China. Let's hope that's not just a dream at this point.

Xi needs the oil, so he befriends a declining state. It's like a fire sale in Russia. Russia makes a sorry partner these days otherwise. It has become quickly dominated by Chinese goods, money, as the only help available. Chinese ammo probably. Putin's life line may also end up being a drag for Xi.

I appreciate your link and explanation SB. I just don't buy that that one (foolish) comment amongst all the other talk before and after, especially after, was the deciding factor in the mind of Putin. I believe he had already made his mind up and the roots of his decision are to be found in the sympathetic and pally attitude of a previous administration.

Israel is becoming a concern. It has been the cornerstone of Middle East peace. Now the far right government and Netanyahu, who has been in a few legal scrapes himself, is "reforming" the judiciary. Massive protests. Distraction. Attack on the media. Israel's credit rating downgraded. Another divided democracy, moving toward Hungarian-style semi autocratic rule.

Will they still have the focus to ensure their own survival? There is already talk about a "brain drain". This is great news for Iran.

Xi and Putin are only winners in their own minds after this bro-fest. They are the sole authorities in their nations, they need no signed agreements. They remain a dodgy pair to most of the western world.

Do you get it?? They just announced a new global economic order outside of "the West" and what could be the end of the US Dollar as the global reserve currency. Russia will start using the Yuan as its trading currency, that also seems to include KSA and Iran through a peace deal brokered by China. The next Axis is forming before our very eyes, thanks to current US and Western leadership.

@silurian

I appreciate your link and explanation SB. I just don't buy that that one (foolish) comment amongst all the other talk before and after, especially after, was the deciding factor in the mind of Putin. I believe he had already made his mind up and the roots of his decision are to be found in the sympathetic and pally attitude of a previous administration.

As I mentioned -- Putin's personal experience with Biden for years is that Biden is weak and will not back up his rhetoric with action, and indeed will appease Russia. Then Putin *met* Biden in 2021 and saw a passive person who had to be guided around by his handlers, someone who shrunk into the background against other leaders. And then Biden completely fails in Afghanistan in a humiliating rout as bad as Vietnam, coupled with other global actions of retreat and weakness -- and to cap it off Biden says the US will take no action if Russia just does a "minor" invasion of Ukraine.

Green light, full steam ahead!

The Kurds were friends. But we abandoned them.

Yes…were. But I still believe our Spec Ops works with them on occasion.

The Turks hate the Kurds, Turkey has the 2d largest military in NATO.

IIRC The Kurds are guarding prison camps containing over 10,000 ISIS terrorists.

Once again that region appears to be a muddled mess … You need strong US leadership to deal with this.

IMO part of Putin's & Xi's recent moves is because they see US leadership as weak …

The Kurds were friends. But we abandoned them.

Again, per another thread, there are no "The Kurds." That's a false meme. There is no the Kurds. And we cut ties with *one* faction among many we had no business dealing with in the first place.

The Kurdish peoples are not a monolithic entity, they are scattered across northern Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and southern Turkey in a dozen or more factions. So there is no "The Kurds" -- there's the PKK, KCK, KPC, PYD (a PKK offshoot in Syria), Tev-Dem, YPG, YPJ, KNC, DBK, KRG, Peshmerga, KDP, and the PUK.

Given the shifting alphabet soup of factions, forgive me if I err -- but I believe the primary faction of Kurds that the US worked with in the Gulf War is the KDP, and we worked with them in the fight against Al Qaeda. They are located hundreds and hundreds of miles away from the area in Syria we're talking about – they are in northern Iraq and still have good ties with the US.

The Kurds the US "abandoned" in Syria are one of several Syrian Kurdish groups, and this one -- the PYD is an offshoot of the PKK (militant Communist Kurdistan Worker's Party – which is an internationally recognized terrorist group). So why were we supporting them in the first place?

In any event, within 24 hours of the US "abandoning" them, this group announced an alliance with -- the Assad Regime.

IMO part of Putin's & Xi's recent moves is because they see US leadership as weak …

Yes.

Did you read what I wrote SB? Unite the world and isolate these two gang leaders. Stay strong. For Ukraine, for Taiwan, for what's left of democracies.

It's up to you whether you take Xi and/or Putin at face value. And IMO, almost none of your assessment of Biden is correct. And I am a very long way from being a fan of his. He has been at times too tough in some of his rhetoric. I think Xi got the message about the US defending Taiwan, but it broke with the old ways.

Biden gave Putin no way to claim the US provoked the invasion, critical for global unity in the alliance against Putin. This was deliberate and calculated. Tough on Ukraine, however, and you can debate the decision.

Biden re- united NATO, after the previous guy's lack of experience undermined cohesion. You honestly think the members did not recognize Biden's influence and critical importance to the alliance? There was visible relief at the resumption of positive interactions to oppose Putin. This was pretty clear.

The Russian conventional military has taken a major beating. We have poured weapons into Ukraine. And this makes Putin think Biden is weak? I disagree.

As aside, I am sure Putin remembers his country getting an absolute butt-kicking in Afghanistan. As the British once did. This defeat played a role in the collapse of the Soviet Union, in the opinion of some. But America is still here.

Europe is a different game. Biden has known this for years, gets it, has the respect of the leaders there. He has weaknesses, several bad decisions, especially Afghanistan and the Saudis. But weak he is not. I am sticking with this opinion. I don't really recognize the guy you are describing.

But this war needs to end. Get Ukraine what they need very soon and push Putin back at least part way to Crimea, end the fighting. You can only do this by beating Putin back.

But this war needs to end. Get Ukraine what they need very soon and push Putin back at least part way to Crimea, end the fighting. You can only do this by beating Putin back.

Yes get Putin out of all the Ukraine. Then send in UN troops to guard the reestablished borders. Continue to arm Ukraine so that they can defend themselves. As you can't trust any Russian leadership to not invade a few years from then.

Frankly the UN troops are a tripwire … that may keep the Russians in Russia.

The Kurdish peoples are not a monolithic entity, they are scattered across northern Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and southern Turkey in a dozen or more factions. So there is no "The Kurds" -- there's the PKK, KCK, KPC, PYD (a PKK offshoot in Syria), Tev-Dem, YPG, YPJ, KNC, DBK, KRG, Peshmerga, KDP, and the PUK.

Yes, like many things in that region old tribal, ethnic, etc. hatreds, etc., continue to make things very unstable.

And IMO, almost none of your assessment of Biden is correct. And I am a very long way from being a fan of his.

Then correct me. Where was I wrong?

And IMO, almost none of your assessment of Biden is correct. And I am a very long way from being a fan of his.

Barring the door after the horses have run out of the corral…Biden's own statements told Putin it was OK to attack Ukraine. And them Biden's first reaction was to retreat -- offer Zelensky a comfortable exile and walk away. So it's great that his regime eventually responded appropriately, but now they've gone too far and continue to inflame things. My fear is that we may discover how inept and disjointed the response has been only after a Ukrainian collapse. Do I want that? No. But I don't really know how much of the almost $200 USD billion sent to Ukraine actually got there. It's quite possible to spend a lot of money in a short time in a very inefficient manner.

And what's victory look like? What's the end goal? According to the latest Biden talking points we're going to haul Putin before the Hague and try him for war crimes. How likely is that without a global war??

Legion +1.

FWIW – we got UBL and at least two of his sons … He was a very worthwhile target. We also just got his former 2IC AZK in A'stan with the "Flying Ginsu" version of a Hellfire AT missile. Add AZH, Al Baghdadi, Suleimani and a large number of other islamic terrorist/jihadis have been sent to "paradise". None of them deserved to live … so we kill'd'm …

haul Putin before the Hague and try him for war crimes.

As much as I and many others would like that to happen. I think Putin will most likely die of disease, old age or a bullet in the back of his skull. Oh yes … Or trip and fall out of a 6th story window.

And IMO, almost none of your assessment of Biden is correct. And I am a very long way from being a fan of his.

400% increase in Iranian-backed attacks and rocket strikes on US Iraqi bases facilities since Biden became President. According to an NBC story, the US has not responded or retaliated.

"Iran-backed militias' attacks against U.S. targets are up. The U.S. hasn't responded with force since last year."

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Biden further insulted the Saudis on multiple occasions, alienating them and left them open to this recent Chinese deal.

Seems Biden's policy is everything everywhere, all at once…

I don't want to restate what I have already said, which I think already answered your points. Which includes noting Biden's weaknesses. Mistakes in the Middle East, better in Europe. Better with China than the last guy, but not really taking the lead from Xi now when he could, the talks should be restarted.

We have opinions, they differ, I am not going to correct you, and I am not going to spend too much time on political and back and forth. I enter these verbal battles and I feel just like Putin and Xi want me to feel. Or how our political leaders want us to feel. Divided. I have no doubt about your patriotism and the strength of your convictions. Or mine.

Again we have different opinions and present them. Food for thought. Point and counter-point. When we get to the bottom line about this country I think we are the same.

When we get to the bottom line about this country I think we are the same.

I agree -- but if we can't see what works and doesn't work, and excuse or do not acknowledge leadership and policy problems we can't fix what's broken.

I think this becomes the sticking point. Things did not work in the last admin that we don't talk about. That's why I brought up Helsinki and the tariffs. Both of the last two presidents have had their shortcomings. can we agree on that? Some can, some cannot.

We can certainly agree that the withdrawal from Afghanistan was very poorly executed. We may not agree that Trump's trips to Europe made us look erratic and immature to NATO and our enemies. But we can move on and spend more time finding things that are working.