"Terrible Ukranian propaganda" Topic

Anyone else hear about those 2 Ukrainian fighter pilots who took on 30 Russian planes and shot down half of them?

Got a link?

Interesting stats in his profile. Are you a bot?

A quick google search brings up nothing leading one to suspect this is a bit of non wargames related baiting,

Tally Ho!

Note this is the same user who claims to have been banned from boardgamegeek.com for innocently claiming he "…didn't like the black elf…" on Rings of Power. Perhaps we're in the company of someone who just likes stirring pots. It's always fun when someone puts a post title like that out there with no sourcing, etc.

We are talking about the famous "Phantom of Kyiv"?
link

One of thousands of fakes…

@LongshotGC, strange you should mention that.

TMP link

Exactly the same subject by the same poster. What are the chances?

It's obviously a 🧌, so it's best to ignore it until Bill bans it.

I say chaps I most certainly am not a bot, you sir are a cad! The phantom of kyiv is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyway I do not claim to have found the source, some friends of mine were going on about it, that's why I asked whether anyone else had heard of it. If you had read the post were I ''claimed to have been deleted from BoardGameGeek'' you would have seen that quite a few people agreed with me, so I'm certainly not the only pot stirrer here.

Also what exactly is strange about my stats?

"One of thousands of fakes…"

How is the war, seems like the ruscums are having a hard job, considering you all believed it was a three day special operation. Some wonderful drone footage of your friends going to sleep on a permanent basis, what ever happened to the Russians of the 1940s?

Tally Ho!

If you had bothered to find my last year's posts, you would have seen that I did not believe in the beginning of the "special operation"; that I said that the Russian army is a "paper tiger", etc.
But people like you assured me otherwise ;-)

And now I say that the outcome of the war is not a foregone conclusion, and the main result should be expected not on the battlefield, but in world politics and economics. I may be wrong, but I think so.
Unfortunately, Russia is not the main beneficiary in this fight – in fact, a proxy war is going on between the USA and China.

"Special military operation " What a joke. More like invading a sovereign country, pillaging and raping along the way.

A medieval English army on chevauchee would probably think Ukraine was 'a bit much'. Though to be fair they'd probably be most shocked by the amateurish Russian attempts at looting and the terrible waste of loot resulting from mass artillery bombardment…

Just saw this:

"The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin, citing his alleged involvement in the abduction of Ukrainian children."

🤔 wonder who is going to serve it?

"Mr Putin, we represent the ICC. You sir are under arrest. Please come with us."
"Why of course. Just let me turn the lights off in the Kremlin. We don't want waste energy."

Sure that's how it will go. 😂🤣

Just saw this:

"The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued an arrest warrant for Russian President Vladimir Putin, citing his alleged involvement in the abduction of Ukrainian children."

🤔 wonder who is going to serve it?

"Mr Putin, we represent the ICC. You sir are under arrest. Please come with us."
"Why of course. Just let me turn the lights off in the Kremlin. We don't want waste energy."

Sure that's how it will go. 😂🤣

Let's all have a laugh at Putin getting away with crimes against humanity.

As you have chosen to post this in the "Terrible Ukranian [sic] propaganda" topic, do you consider this Ukrainian propaganda?

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Pity Xi visited Putin and not other way round. Might have been 'interesting'?

Druzhina

"Let's all have a laugh at Putin getting away with crimes against humanity.

As you have chosen to post this in the "Terrible Ukranian [sic] propaganda" topic, do you consider this Ukrainian propaganda?"

I laugh at the uselessness of the proclamation. As should we all. It is nothing but a paper Tiger.

FYI both sides propagate propaganda. All countries do. I'm sure it will be used for propaganda purposes. I'm sure the Ukrainians will use it as a positive and the Russians as a negative.

jsmcc91, no kidding. Neither Russia Ukraine, nor Ukraine Russia officially declared war. Right now, gas and ammonia are pumped from Russia through Ukraine through pipelines. You didn't know? War is war and business is business.

Surprisingly, the shelling of the cities of the DPR and LPR for eight years was not considered a crime. Do subhumans live there?

Cuprum, as 35th says both sides are churning out propaganda and I don't trust any of the claims by either side, unless there's corroborative evidence. Whether Ukraine was shelling the rebellious provinces and deliberately targetting civilians (as Russia claims), responding to provocation (as Ukraine claims) or has been false flagged (as Ukraine claims- and Russia has form, thanks to Russia accusing Ukraine of shooting down MH17 deliberately) is another group of questions. They also should be investigated by an independent body- probably international neutrals, if they can find some- to see if war crimes were committed.

None of that changes the fact that Russia invaded a foreign state for political reasons and that crimes have been committed by the invading troops. There's more than enough evidence already gathered by neutral investigators to support prosecution.

What frustrates me is that regardless of what is found and proven, nobody will ever be punished for it. At best it will be another in absentia show trial.

Surprisingly, the shelling of the cities of the DPR and LPR for eight years was not considered a crime. Do subhumans live there?

Pro-ruѕѕian media and trοllѕ say that Ukraine has been shelling the Dοnbas for 8 years, and has cοmmitted any number of atrοcitieѕ., by Aleksandr X, Mar 12.
Shelling of the Donbas was a false-flag operation.

…

@OVI

FYI both sides propagate propaganda.

So you do think it is propaganda and the international criminal court has not been presented with sufficient evidence to indict.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Druzhina put the partisan stuff aside and read what I said. 😉

Not everyone on TMP works for for either side. The accusatory stuff does get old.

my concern is will Putin or any other Russian war criminals actually pay for their crimes?

Putin will probably not suffer any punishment. But the inditement does limit him and other Russian officials. They cant travel to some states, and possibly it has financial implications. So its not a total waste.

I'd note the IIC isn't a 'Western', 'NATO' or even a UN body. There are a number of notable non-signatories. Putin could go to the US and China in complete safety from an ICC warrant.

All the commentary I've seen or heard on the subject suggests that the pick of charges is the availability of proof and that they may feel that by publicising it they may curtail the offending. It could be seen a charge deliberately laid to affect public opinion as children are almost universally enjoy a special place amongst cultures…. The idea of Russia as child stealers may help shift public and political opinion in certain countries that are currently fence-sitting. Of course it may also help Putin hold his position. 'Look see how they demonise us.' Self-fulfilling prophecies and all that. Personally while many will see this as just on a catalogue of true crimes against humanity I think it just highlights the rather sad and pathetic nature of the state Putin's created. A state that feels the need to manufacture ersatz Russians from another countries kids. Though the historic parallels in colonialism tend to suggest it seldom work out in the long run.

It is highly unlikely that Putin will see the inside of an ICC courtroom though we may get some of those responsible for enabling the crime eventually.

I also idly wonder if there is anyone here who would be willing to tell a Ukrainian to their face they can't have their child back because this is just a 'territorial dispute' that needs settling and other side don't want to talk that….

To the OP…it's a war. Colin Kelly, CMOH for 1941 action, ring a bell? What Dal Gavan said, as I have ad nauseum in regard to the illegal invasion of Ukraine.

Putin will probably not suffer any punishment. But the inditement does limit him and other Russian officials. They cant travel to some states, and possibly it has financial implications. So its not a total waste.

I agree … And yes Attacking financials is always a good idea. We need to do that to the Mex. cartels too. However, in both cases can we designate both Russia & the cartels as Terrorists ?

I hope Putin and some of his associates realize now with war crimes charges they will only be able to go to China, North Korea and Iran. Cuba ? Did I miss any ?

I agree … And yes Attacking financials is always a good idea.

Far greater transparency and regulation of banking at an international-scale is probably the only way forward on that score. And I say that in full knowledge of the alleged and not-so alleged complicity of the UKs own financial sector in facilitating international money laundering and in taking no small amount of Russian money. Ultra-liberal banking 'enthusiasts' were among those who funded the referendum campaign to take the UK out of the EU, basically because they didn't like being regulated. America and no-doubt other countries have their own proponents who like to hand out money to those politicians who are willing to tow that line. I'd also point out that liberal banking enthusiasts often seem remarkable keen on being bailed out by the State and its tax payers when it goes wrong…

That won't happen as many nations may have too many skeletons in their closets when it comes to this. E.g. many didn't want the Ukraine to join NATO as their gov't was considered "too corrupt". I'd think that is a bit hypocritical and some should look in the mirror. I.e. "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." …

Now the cartels being designated as terrorists. That should have already happened. But to make it effective the US Southern Border has to be locked down tight. And LEOs be allowed to do their jobs. I like a two-pronged approach. Double Envelopment …

And the US won't have to cross any borders.

Druzhina, you gave a link to the publication of either a troll or a mentally ill person.
You should know that the troops stationed for 8 years in the Donbass are two army corps formed from local residents. Children, wives and parents of these people died under artillery fire. And these people continued to side with Russia? Are you sane? Even if Russian gunners were firing, this information would simply be impossible to conceal. Where, by the way, were the Western space satellites? Has any such fact been recorded? OSCE observers were also present there for many years – did they record at least one such fact? Determining the direction of the shelling is very simple, especially if the shell hits a multi-storey building. I've never heard anything stupider…

With regard to the issuance of a warrant for the arrest of Putin-another stupidity. Now there can be no negotiations. At least with Europe.

youtu.be/ZKLzF_TteBo

Especially for you, Druzhina. Footage of one of the very first shelling of civilians by the Ukrainian army in 2014. A rocket attack by unguided missiles was carried out by a Ukrainian Air Force aircraft at the mayor's office of the city of Lugansk. This blow was recorded by dozens of eyewitnesses and it is impossible to deny it.

youtu.be/aNqRS6V0ZEw

youtu.be/XZX6URzCmxk

And this is footage of artillery shelling of the cities of Donbass. It's still the same 2014.
Now do you understand why the Donbass militia fights against the Ukrainians best of all? They take revenge. They take revenge on the murderers of their women and children.

The NATO Secretary General was right – the war began in 2014 and this is one of its first crimes. On which the West did not care.

OSCE observers were also present there for many years – did they record at least one such fact?

They did, and it was even reported about it in Ukrainian media.
OSCE says Luhansk blast on June 2 likely caused by airstrike – On Kyiv Post

Depending on what you want to call 'West' for your purpose, CNN and Radio Liberty cared.

Air attack on pro-Russian separatists in Luhansk kills 8, stuns residents – On CNN

Despite Denials, All Evidence For Deadly Explosion Points To Kyiv – On Radio Free Liberty

As far as I can see, the inhabitants of the disputed regions who were loyal to Russia were then exactly what they are now, together with a few hundred thousand Russians expendables and their colonial auxiliaries, they prefer to wear out first,
cannon fodder for delusions.

---

Do subhumans live there?

Oh, before I forget about it, after all, we're talking about propaganda, if you really want to go for the creepy effect and bad conscience on the audience with some Reductio ad Hitlerum, use the German term, it's much more effective.
So, in this case, Untermensch.

It works, they fall for it, believe me.

I asked about the OSCE fixing the shelling of cities in the pro-Russian regions by the Russians themselves …

These people and these regions were not going to secede from Ukraine until the nationalist coup in Kyiv. Nationalist rebels (with the active participation of overt Nazis – one of the three leaders of the Maidan was the Nazi Tyahnybok, and his several "Maidan hundreds" were the main striking force) overthrew the president legally elected by these people, with the open support of Western governments. The leaders of the nationalists refused to conduct a dialogue with these people. If democracy does not work, people have the right to defend their views and beliefs with weapons.

Perhaps if Putin hadn't been busy turning Ukraine into a mini-me version of his kleptocracy the Ukrainian people wouldn't have got so angry…. I'm guessing the CCTV footage of Yushchenko ordering his security minions to load, it has to be said rather tasteless art collection, on to the helicopter as he runs away, doesn't get much airtime in pro-Russian circles or the fact that large quantities of Ukrainian state funds also disappeared.

Yushchenko was a pro-Western politician who preceded Yanukovych. But yes – he was also a corrupt official and a thief.
Poroshenko was also a corrupt official and a thief. And he perfectly cooperated in this field with Yanukovych, in whose government he was. You can ask the son of Biden)))
Yatsenyuk, one of the three leaders of the Maidan, was also a corrupt official and a thief.

There was a year left before the elections in Ukraine in 2014. If some Ukrainians were not satisfied with Yanukovych, they could choose another president. No one can say that the elections in Ukraine were rigged. What is the problem? Isn't that how democracy works? Oh yes … Now, for a long time now, democracy has been an empty word, only a screen. Now the West encourages the violent overthrow of the legitimately elected authorities, if the interests of the West require it. And those who disagree can simply be killed – for this there are "tame" Nazis.

I'd note in the light of the revelation that apparently lies were told and the Russian military is actually something of a 'paper tiger' that perhaps lies have been told about a great, great many other things by the current Russian State?

Drop the Nazi shtick. Overdone and not enough of a basis to invade a sovereign country, rape, kill, pillage and steal children. More people on both sides are going to die because of false pretenses.

WHAT? The "Ghost of Kviy" had two brothers???

Oh, wait. The "Ghost" was fictional, wasn't he – A "Morale Booster".

B

Cuprum do you do anything but regurgitate your party line. If it is as you claim, why are the Ukrainians fighting back, very effectively, instead of saying, "oh special invasion" thank you very much for allowing us the opportunity to become part of the new USSR.

Look at your own president, your so called soldiers' behaviour before you through around the usual, accusations of Nazis.

So no popular pro soviet uprising, just soviets invading, looting, raping and murdering.

Tally Ho!

Hi Nick,
To be perfectly fair about this, exactly what reporting are you relying upon and "regurgitating"?

Just asking, you understand.

B

Drop the Nazi shtick. Overdone and not enough of a basis to invade a sovereign country, rape, kill, pillage and steal children. More people on both sides are going to die because of false pretenses.

Exactly ! It was a ridiculous reason to invade. How many Nazis were in the Ukraine ? Were there enough to do Barbarossa 2.0 ? Of course not ! More Putin/Russian propaganda. So yes, how many Nazis were in the Ukraine ? 2000, 3000 ?

However, many in the US media and even leaders use words like Nazis, Stormtroopers, concentration camps, etc. to try to get their point across, add drama, sway the ignorant, etc. Added to any topic that they want to push a narrative, agenda, etc. To the informed and/or anyone with common sense, etc. it is more theater than having any reality/facts. E.g. many in the media, leadership positions, etc. jumped at the chance to call LEOs of any agencies and/or members of the Military – Stormtroopers, Nazis, etc.

If in fact any LEOs or military personnel were the "feared" "stormtroopers" they'd be stacking bodies. We don't do that in the USA.

I am not enthusiastic about the war with Ukraine. But the war was started not by Russia, but by the West in 2014, inspiring a coup d'état in a country where the coming to power of any nationalists is almost a 100% chance of a civil war. If you support one side against the other, the degree of conflict will immediately increase. Do you not understand this? Do you understand. But you close your eyes The West was not interested in any negotiations and a peaceful solution to the conflict. All negotiations were only a way to give time to prepare Ukraine for a war with Russia, and the leaders of the leading European countries publicly and openly declared this. What more proof is needed?
I do not consider Ukraine a Nazi state. But the Nazis in Ukraine are legalized and are part of the state structure (political parties, state armed groups) – this is an indisputable fact. The legalization of the Nazis is a monstrous danger to the whole world. Today these Nazis are targeting the Russians, but tomorrow they will have other targets. It seems that only Hungarians understand this in the West. The Poles have already forgotten what Ukrainian Nazism is. If history is forgotten, it is repeated.
Propagandists lie everywhere: in Russia, in Ukraine, in the West… Sometimes these lies are visible to the naked eye and are simply ridiculous (although there are people who even believe in this). Information war is part of any war. But you always have the opportunity to get to the bottom of the truth if you want. Although sometimes it is very unpleasant … Many people prefer to go with the flow. It's much easier. I say what I think. If you think otherwise, it's your right.

+100 Cuprum.

….. although I'm not so sure all Polese have forgotten Stefon Bandera and his Nazi organization in WW2. How many 100s of thousands of ethnic Poles were "liquidated" by his group?

And to think this man's memory is still annually celebrated among many Ukrainians.

B

B

The 100% chance of starting a civil war is actually when Russian soldiers / tourists went to start the armed uprising in Eastern Ukraine.

They admit it and talk openly about it. Igor Girkin, etc.

You have a right to your opinions and beliefs, but just because you say something is an undisputable fact does not make it so.

If "The West" was trying to take time to prepare Ukrain for a war with Russia, why do "the West" need to take so long to send military equipment to Ukraine now?

I certainly do need more proof than your statements. Past actions of Russia in this situation are far stronger in persuasion than the "undisputable proof" you speak of.

How is it that Ukraine does not have huge numbers of citizens that want to fight against their facist rulers that are owned by Zionists / The West / USA / Choose your evil of the week here.

How is the "protection of the Donbas" going? How many people have been saved from Nazis in this past year?

Where is this bottom of the truth to be found? If I am lied to by my local media, should I then turn to anyone who says something different and believe whatever they say as 100% truth?

As to the original post here. Such tales have not been told any time recently, and I certainly never heard of such an absurd exageration. Air to Air kills now would with any chance be coming from the Russian side with long range fire from within Russian Airspace.

Blutarski,

old friends and workmates who have been there since 2014, with a very objective view, as that was their job.

And one good thing about the western press/ internet there is a large swathe of information/ OSINT to provide a balanced view,

Tally Ho!

Blutarski, I imagine Nick does what I do, and look at as many reports as I can in a reasonable time.

The trouble is, reports coming from Russia usually contradict each other and are demonstrably untrue.

Remind, me, how many NATO tanks are poised just outside Moscow ?

But the war was started not by Russia, but by the West in 2014,

Wait … who rolled thru and took Crimea ? It was not the Nazis …

The legalization of the Nazis is a monstrous danger to the whole world.

Wait … how many Nazis are there in the Ukraine ? Certainly not enough to start a 4th Reich and WWII 2.0. The US has Neo-Nazis but they are very small anachronistic group of morons. That whole freedom of speech allows them to exist. They pose little threat to anyone. Are they going to go to the Ukraine and join the Nazis there ? No …

Pendeker +1

Dagwood +1

Remind, me, how many NATO tanks are poised just outside Moscow ?

Exactly … many US MBTs are in "mothballs" so to speak. They are in the USA and no threat to anyone.

However, I'm annoyed the US is dragging it's feet, IMO not sending M1s, in large numbers. They should be in the Ukraine now. E.g. The USMC just turned in their 200 M1s … 50-60 of those plus all the NATO, etc. MBTs, etc. promised should be there. All those would give the Ukraine what it needs to push the Russian aggressors out of their homeland. Their homeland … Not Russia's.

End the war with Russia being soundly defeated … even if Putin will somehow claim victory. E.g. Mother Russia has defeated the Nazi threat again ! Then have a parade ! If they can find enough tanks and troops to even have a small one …

There is no logical, reasonable, etc., way to paint the picture that the West is at fault for this. And Putin's invasion is justified. Nazis … really ?

Legion: Yes but they were there, in their millions, Nazis and NATO troops disguised as innocent ladies, with that man y tanks waiting to invade Russia it was like a Team Yankee game!

Tally Ho!

The problem with 'undisputable facts' is, sooner or later they collide with reality.

Cuprum do you do anything but regurgitate your party line.

Cuprum's not the only one doing that. Nor is he as rabid as some of his detractors.

There's so much BS masking the Russian and Ukrainian claims that I doubt anyone outside an intelligence agency really knows what is going on or what has happened. Add news organisations trying to sell advertising and their own agenda, rather than inform people, and the reality is getting buried even deeper.

But while I like to get Cuprum's view of how Russians are seeing the war, he's made some claims that need to be looked at.

As for the war starting in 2014, Cuprum, I thought Russia's Wars of Reunification started with invasion of Georgia in 1993. You can argue that invading Crimea and the sudden "uprisings by people who want to remain Russian" in the Donbas were responses to the coup in Ukraine, and that the "West" supported the coup. However Russia had already been asking for "discussions" about the return of Crimea before 2014. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are examples that the invasion was likely if the Ukrainian government didn't hand over the Crimea. Speaking of Georgia, how many of the pro-Russian Ossetians and Abkhaz still live in their homelands? How many Russian settlers have moved in? Isn't it interesting how the Donbas independence movement seems to have followed the Abkhazian script so closely?

Cuprum, think about it, mate. Yes, I know "the West" does the same thing. It doesn't mean they're right, either.

but by the West in 2014, inspiring a coup d'état in a country where

How did the "West" inspire the coup?

Did the "West" send any troops or police?

Arm insurgents?

Train guerillas?

Or did they just applaud what appeared to be a popular uprising (not just a few specially chosen rebels) against a corrupt, ineffectual government (I know, that could describe most governments)- as they also did in the "Arab Spring" (and didn't that turn out well…..).

I think you're a smart bloke, Cuprum. Why not think about what evidence there really is that the "West" (whoever they are) did anything except cheer on the revolutionaries in 2014.

Yes but they were there, in their millions, Nazis and NATO troops disguised as innocent ladies, with that man y tanks waiting to invade Russia it was like a Team Yankee game!

I thought that was still classified ?