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"Thomas and Gibbon" Topic


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Brechtel19828 Dec 2022 6:05 a.m. PST

These two excellent officers were both southern born and rightly chose to remain loyal to the nation in 1861. Gibbon's family had nothing to do with him because of his honorable decision.

Gibbon rose to division command and was the second commander of the infantry brigade that under his command and leadership became the Iron Brigade.

Thomas may very have been the best army-level commander on either side during the war.

Legionarius28 Dec 2022 6:50 a.m. PST

Their statues are keepers!

Brechtel19828 Dec 2022 8:13 a.m. PST

Thomas was the only Union army commander that completely routed a Confederate army-at Missionary Ridge outside Chattanooga and at Nashville.

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 9:15 a.m. PST

I completely agree with your rating of Thomas. But I would have to say that he was the best army-level commander either side had during the war.

And if Grant and Sherman would have listened to him in early 1864, Thomas could have completely destroyed the Army of Tennessee at the very beginning of the Atlanta campaign and possibly ended the war a year earlier.

For those who are interested in learning more about the "Rock of Chickamauga" I can heartedly recommend Benson Bobrick's biography Master of War: The Life of General George H. Thomas (Simon & Schuster, 2009).

Jim

Personal logo KimRYoung Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 9:28 a.m. PST

Thomas may very have been the best army-level commander on either side during the war.

Not sure Grant would have agreed. Prior to the Battle of Nashville, Grant had dispatched John Logan there to relive him of command for his inaction. Grant had actual prepared to go to Nashville and personally take command of the army just prior to Thomas finally taking action against Hood.

His appointment to Major General in the regular army would rank behind Sheridan.

Kim

donlowry28 Dec 2022 10:30 a.m. PST

Gibbon rose beyond division command to command the 24th Corps in the Petersburg/Appomattox campaign.

Thomas married a Northern woman, IIRC, which might have had something to do with his loyalties.

DisasterWargamer Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 11:30 a.m. PST

Jim – Great book recommendation


(Review of the book Jim recommended) hnn.us/articles/62002.html

The review articulates most of what I would add – other than to say Thomas was not one of the Generals who was a politician (likely as he was loyal to the US first and did not have many supporters on either side – nor did he get the publicity others had) before or after the war and did not that I know of publish any kind of notes or biography

There are times you need a Sheridan – but overall I would want Thomas on my side leading

Grattan54 Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 11:40 a.m. PST

Thomas' family also never forgave him. upon his death, years after the war, a family friend gave his condolence to one of his sisters. She asked for what? He said, "for the death of your brother" her response, "my brother died in 1861."

35thOVI Supporting Member of TMP28 Dec 2022 3:00 p.m. PST

Thomas deserves to be in the pantheon of Union civil war generals. He never lost a battle he was in command of. One could say that his battles against Hood late in the war were the most decisive defeats of that war.

Grant really did not like Thomas:

"Finally, Grant and Thomas never got along. It was important for Grant to be comfortable with people, and Thomas made him uneasy. Thomas exhibited a vaguely aristocratic manner that got under Grant's skin, and sometimes Thomas ignored his chief's orders entirely. After a lifetime of service Thomas had developed his own schedule. Once he decided what was the right action to take and when was the appropriate time to take it, no one—not Grant, not Sherman, not Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, not President Lincoln himself—could make Thomas alter his agenda. Grant never admitted to any personal animosity toward Thomas, but when it came time for dividing credit up among his generals, he was particularly stingy with the Virginian.""


Missionary Ridge is interesting. Historians disagree if the attack up the hill was ordered, or if it was a spontaneous move by the soldiers in the Army of the Cumberland, after they had taken the rifle pits. I believe the later, but it will depend on your historian. I believe the men of the Army of the Cumberland felt they had something to prove after their lone defeat.

"Grant's plan went off the rails almost at once. On November 23 Thomas occupied Orchard Knob, high ground before Missionary Ridge, and, the day after, Hooker's men handily drove the Confederate defenders from Lookout Mountain. But the main battle had to be postponed for a day so Sherman could get his men in place to assault the Confederate position at Tunnel Hill. Sherman moved at sunrise but, even outnumbering his opponents almost six to one, he could make no headway. By three in the afternoon Sherman was still bogged down on the left, and Hooker, who had lost five hours repairing a bridge, was nowhere to be seen on the right.

From his command post at Orchard Knob, Grant could see the battle was getting away from him. "We must do something for Sherman," he said. Hoping a demonstration at the center would make Bragg draw troops away from Tunnel Hill, he ordered Thomas to advance on the rifle pits at the base of Missionary Ridge. The first part was easy. The Rebel riflemen, reasonably enough, retreated in the face of an approaching army. Once the Cumberland men got the pits, however, they were on their own. They had no fire support on either side. They had no orders to advance and none to retreat. Staying put was a death warrant for the troops; they were being torn apart by shortrange artillery and musket fire from the summit. And so eighteen thousand men of the Army of the Cumberland did what only trained professional soldiers can do. They advanced toward the firing.

An astonished Grant watched the men scramble up the slope "like a swarm of bees." Sharply he asked Thomas who had ordered the charge. Thomas said he didn't know, but Gordon Granger, commander of the IV Corps, allowed that "when those fellows get started all hell can't stop them."

Whether an accident or a miracle—and it was called both—the charge was a blow the Army of Tennessee could not survive. Bragg lost control of his men as they poured off the field in panic. By the time Hooker played his part in Grant's plan, there was no interdicting the Southern retreat. The Union army didn't own horses that fast."

Thomas a general who does not get his just dues and The Army of the Cumberland, who also have not gotten their just dues.


The quotes are from:

Subject: The Rock Of Chickamauga | AMERICAN HERITAGE


link

donlowry29 Dec 2022 9:58 a.m. PST

The main complaint about Thomas was that he was slow.

Personal logo KimRYoung Supporting Member of TMP30 Dec 2022 3:25 p.m. PST

"Old Slow Trot" was one of hi nicknames.

Kim

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