"German Coups averted...." Topic

Point of order. You cannot have a 'right' without recognition in law. It is not a coincidence that in French or Spanish for instance. the word for 'law' and 'right' is the same.
Without recognition in law, how can a right be defended.

International agreement on 'natural rights' is recognition of universality whereof the recognition has to be documented in a binding agreement otherwise it's merely an aspiration.

Without recognition in law, how can a right be defended.

With weapons/arms, generally speaking, violence?

Without recognition in law, how can a right be defended.

With weapons/arms, generally speaking, violence?

Yes -- and the result of said violence, if it works out as aspired, is the recognition in *new* law for a *new* civil society for how your rights are defended. That's what happened in the American Revolution.

But as a cautionary, that's not how it played out in the French Revolution and most other revolutionary movements that result in the same or even worse tyranny than before.

Oh…and to make things even more volatile, the German government is basically choosing to deindustrialize…wonder when German voters will catch onto that??

Funny what I say was contracted pseudo police/military shoot rubber bullets at journalist, Moms and and old folks.

So give me your source that prove Antifa is any thing but just college kids beating on redneck would be fascist?

"With weapons/arms, generally speaking, violence?"

That might be a way of asserting a right but when the smoke clears and want to open the shops again and get the trains running, what are you gonna do?

Maybe I was mistaken, but I was under the impression this discussion was in the context of the Rule of Law.

Rule of Law

The rule of law is protected by force, that is, as a last resort, by violence.
But the holders of power tend to obscure this simple fact.
Yes, there are also habits, morals, culture, and often it is rather advantageous to follow the rules.
But they all have a history.
And almost always a history of violence.
And still, if there are rules that serve whomever, they must be protected, at least for some time.
With force, violence, arms.
It is easier to see that when you look at the relationship of states.
Just ask Ukraine.

"And anarchists tend to be decentralized by nature. Again, I do not make light of these lawbreakers, but I think they are not as much of an overt threat as they are made out to be by the right and serve a a foil for right wing media."

They were at the heart of the 2020 riots. They caused billions of dollars in damage, at least 25 people died, and hundreds of police officers were wonded.

Tort/Ochoin, I've read that study before. It was highly touted when it was released and most articles claiming white Supremacy/right-wing to be a bigger threat than left wing groups refer to that study as their basis. The methodolgy is….poor, to say the least. They took any act of violence perpetrated by someone who had links, no matter how tenuous, to the far right and labeled it an act of terrorism. The study ignored numerous incidents committed by people with links to the left. It also downplays activities by left wing groups. It refers to Antfa as 'counter protesters' in incident where they showed up at a protest and started a fight.

Meanwhile, this group link

taken credit for at least 60 acts of terrorism against pro-life or church groups.

"In my career working for the government, we protected citizens and stayed away from ignorant political appointees who were clueless. The core group got the job done. No deep state that I ever saw. Political agenda peddlers came and went with elections. In such large organizations like the FBI, NYPD (or any other big city), there will always be some bad apples. But some people there have given their lives to keep us safe also."

Tortorella,
I understand what you're saying here, but recent Twitter revelations lead me to believe that you may be mistaken.

The FBI worked its tail off in the 1980s to become a highly professional law enforcement agency and get away from the J. Edgar Hoover days of it being a political persecution unit of the government. However it appears that politically motivated long term employees are in positions of power now and are eroding decades of work by non-partisan agents. They buried the Hunter laptop investigation, colluded with Twitter, (and who knows who else), to suppress conservatives, and lied to both Twitter and Facebook about how serious a threat the Russians were in 2020's election. It appears that search warrants were obtained by false pretenses in the lead up to the 2016 election and several members of the agency purgered themselves in front of Congress. I've spoken to several career agents at various times over the last few years and all of them are ashamed of what their agency has become.

"So give me your source that prove Antifa is any thing but just college kids beating on redneck would be fascist?"

I'd suggest you read this: link

But I doubt you will.

Yeah, because he's totally objective and doesn't have a financial angle the same as any MSM company, he's also a doxer and I quite happily apply the same term to the people who did it to JK Rowling. People seeming quite keen on absolutes in terms morale equivalences. Frankly I'd rather watch Flat Earthers on YouTube at least there's some unintentional comedy values in the proselytizing of their belief.

Dn. I quit working for the government 20 years ago, a flaming burnout, PTSD. So I am not caught up on how various services may have become politicized. Most of my peers are also gone.

I hate painting law enforcement with a broad brush. For all its history under Hoover, and some recent partisan activity, which I believe is happening on both sides in our institutions, I think the FBI is getting the shaft from the right and it's media outlets.

The Twitter thing does not have enough context, IMO. It's a private organization, protected by the Supreme Court, I believe, in controlling its content and client conduct. Contact here with the FBI could also occur in the context of investigations, especially in light of increases in insurrection activities, hate speech, and political manipulation. More info needed.

Dn Jackson +1 As I said they should be considered as Domestic terrorists. Not just I saw the news footage of the 2020 riots. Again, I'm sure they'd enjoyed a tour at Gitmo. It's a tropical paradise. Of course, after a fair trial with an unbiased Judge, etc.

The Twitter thing does not have enough context, IMO. It's a private organization, protected by the Supreme Court…. More info needed.

Lots of "context" available through the Twitter dumps from Musk and others. The DHS, FBI and DNI regularly worked with Twitter to get people banned, and pressured Twitter to ban Trump.

We also know from prior news and the Zuckerberg interview that this extended to Facebook and Google/YouTube as well, and the Biden Campaign and leading Democrats were *also* in regular contact with Big Tech to get opponents and speech they didn't like banned. They also implemented their "misinformation" flags and notices in collaboration with Federal Agencies and the Democrats.

BREAKING: Trump was censored by Twitter ‘under pressure from federal agencies' before being banned
"As the election approached, senior executives – perhaps under pressure from federal agencies, with whom they met more as time progressed – increasingly struggled with rules, and began to speak of 'vios' as pretexts to do what they'd likely have done anyway."

link

There is a lot of information out there about the Twitter bombshells. You just will not find it being reported by the MSM. There have been 3 releases so far. I thought they were pretty damning, SBminisguy, actually very anti First amendment. Not just politically, but to those who spoke out against the lockdowns, the ineffectiveness of masking and the vaccine and the actual origin of the original leak. Reminded me very much of the McCarthy era.

But again, that is my opinion.

Very anti-First Amendment, and creepy in terms of the influence of Federal Law Enforcement and Intelligence services in media and Big Tech. There's some kind of political system in which a powerful Central State co-opts and allies with Big Business and Big Labor unions to control the economy and the society…F-something or other, can't put my finger on it…

Head Of Twitter's Censorship Operation Was A Former FBI, CIA Operative

link

Considering that America was all but ruled and led or misled via thousands of Tweets for four years, maybe you are all correct. It served as a quasi-government agency, like Fox News, which is now in the throes of a massive defamation lawsuit controversy. This new mainstream media has become a battleground. Not telling the truth is about the First Ammendment these days. But not telling the truth has torn us apart from both sides.

like Fox News, which is now in the throes of a massive defamation lawsuit controversy.

Explain ?

link

link

There are a ton of stories, not even mentioned on Fox as the defendant I guess, too political perhaps for here. This will be enough.

"I hate painting law enforcement with a broad brush. For all its history under Hoover, and some recent partisan activity, which I believe is happening on both sides in our institutions, I think the FBI is getting the shaft from the right and it's media outlets."

They have become, in my opinion, very politicized. They seem to be leaning heavily towards Democrats, but that could be just my perspective. The most obvious example of the politicization would be the 2016 election. Comey reopened the probe into the Clinto email scandal in, I believe, October. I've always viewed this as an attempt to cover his bases as Trump was doing well in the polls at the time. He reclosed the investigation just before the election. To me it was obvious he was trying to make sure he could go to whoever won and say, "See what I did to help you? Now give me what I want." Instead Trump fired him and it was well deserved.

"The Twitter thing does not have enough context, IMO. It's a private organization, protected by the Supreme Court, I believe, in controlling its content and client conduct. Contact here with the FBI could also occur in the context of investigations, especially in light of increases in insurrection activities, hate speech, and political manipulation. More info needed."

I agree with the fact it's a private organization and can do what it wants, up to a point. Once the FBI started contacting people directly, that changes things.

the German government is basically choosing to deindustrialize…wonder when German voters will catch onto that

Deindustrialization like that in the US rust belt of the 1970/80's when US industrial production was 'globalized'?
Or a bit later here in Germany?
Ah, no.
Yes, some industries will be hurt, some severly hurt, some won't survive here.
Especially in eastern Germany.
But there is still Georgia (US), isn't it?
:)))

Others will profit.
I am very pleased with the performance of my Rheinmetall shares recently.
There is potential.
Takes a few years of course.

I'm more concerned with German demographics.
It increasingly looks like a retirement home and I'm not talking about my morning mirror.
On the plus side, with time it will help to get rid of that fifth column leftovers lefties and righties in parts of eastern Germany mourning times gone by that never were.
The older the crowd, the less street battles.
Haven't seen bigger uprisings in Germany, especially not from working classes since the mid to late eighties.
And they had better reasons back then.
Don't see a senior uprising coming.

But, looking at this discussion, it's not the topic, bye.

like Fox News, which is now in the throes of a massive defamation lawsuit controversy.

Oh … yes, I've heard about that. Thanks …

This clown? link

No another clown … 🤡

Why is Andy Ngo a clown?

Ngo has a history of Project Veritas style provocations to create ideological propaganda style news according to Wiki. And he makes a living at it, apparently. Let's leave the poor clowns out of this.

Ngo has a history of Project Veritas style provocations to create ideological propaganda style news according to Wiki. And he makes a living at it, apparently. Let's leave the poor clowns out of this.

He was one of the first independent journalists to embed with Antifa and reported on the reality of that movement, for which he's been attacked physically, doxed and attacked in social media -- and now you call him a clown? Funny how that worked out…

I find the left's hatred of Project Veritas to be hilarious. Of course I'm also old enough to remember when news organizations sent people undercover into various organizations on a fairly regular basis.

In fact, one of the heroes of the media made a name for himself doing just that. link
I've read that Sinclair may have made up some of the things he wrote about in 'The Jungle' but can't confirm it. Now, with statements made on video, it's considered dishonest and deceitful when Veritas does it. Hilarious.

Undercover ops and sting ops are not quite the same to me. My point was that he's not a clown. He has monetized outrage and division. He is partisan and like so many others on both sides is a propagandist with an agenda he helps drive. IMO this makes him…not a journalist.

"It's considered dishonest and deceitful" when someone "may have made up some of the things he wrote about". I think we can all agree on this.

I am just as outraged by elite conduct as the next guy. But on both sides. I think we the people have been conned by both elites and hangers on who jump their bandwagons. But I am not drinking anybodys cool aid if I can avoid it. As I always say, there's a leader for all of us out there somewhere. But for now he's still in the 8th grade.

Undercover ops and sting ops are not quite the same to me. My point was that he's not a clown. He has monetized outrage and division. He is partisan and like so many others on both sides is a propagandist with an agenda he helps drive. IMO this makes him…not a journalist.

I followed his feed before he became a thing. His background is an indie journalist with no particular partisan axe to grind, and he probably felt safe embedding with Antifa because he's a gay asian libertarian. But then he started to actually *report* what was going on and what Antifa was doing, they didn't like that. So they beat him bloody, sent him to the Emergency Room and stole his gear. Then they launched a concerted intimidation and smear campaign, and this gay asian libertarian was spun as being a "right wing" provocateur and even accused of being a white supremacist. Ngo continues to cover Antifa and other leftist organizations critically, they continue to issue death threats and attack him physically when they can.

Thanks SB. Some things I did not know..

IMO bottom line based on all I saw and read in the media. If one is anti-Antifa, I can see why and agree …

link

More clowns and standing with the Proud boys?

I would prefer the journalism industry hold all the powerful accountable -- that everyone across all political parties and movements be held accountable by a free and independent media. But we don't have that.

Project Veritas exists because the Establishment Media stopped doing non-partisan investigations years ago. They no longer speak truth to power -- they *are* the power! Gone are the days when an Establishment outlet would chase down a story that could embarrass "their side."

We see with the recent Twitter dumps and some related lawsuits that the FBI and DHS worked with Twitter, Facebook, Establishment Media like CNN-MSNBC-CBS-ABC-WaPo-NYT-PBS etc. to bury the Hunter Biden laptop story and conceal the damaging info inside from the public. They did the same thing about COVID vaccines and related issues, and may other issues.

Isn't that a bit scary, that the nation's top law enforcement and intel agencies worked closely with Establishment Media to decide what news the public would get!?!?!

And the OP article about the "coup attempt" falls into this category. The German government organized a 3,000 officer raid on x25 cranks and kooks, whom the article itself states are not necessarily known to have done anything illegal or dangerous. The German media are trumpeting this success uncritically, parroting the government's line about this amazing victory for justice and public safety.

Where is the critical coverage? Where are the articles demanding more information and proof from the government? Why 3000 officers to arrest 25 people? What had these mostly retirees actually done other than vocally criticize the regime and blather kooky stuff on social media? Not covered, not asked.

No journalism here, just a repeater on broadcast mode from what I can see so far.

That's why the journalism industry ranks as one of the least trusted professions in polls, why groups like Veritas exist, and why our news browsing has become siloed and rumormongering is on the rise. And I think that's why the Establishment hates Veritas -- they are using the undercover investigation tactics the Establishment Media pioneered to reveal their own hidden dirt, showing their true nature.

Germany =/= USA

And Project veritas is paid by partisan NGOs and trusts. Not sure how that makes its "reporting" any different from any other MSM. It also appears to have taken money from the foundation of one politician and then run smear campaigns against apparent opponents of said politician. The ends clearly justify the means for that organisation. Franky I'd rather trust brick-throwing anarchist's at least they have a basic honesty of purpose!

Franky I'd rather trust brick-throwing anarchist's at least they have a basic honesty of purpose!

Ahhh…but who gave them the bricks, eh?

More clowns and standing with the Proud boys?

Antifa are anarchist and the Proud Boys … very out of touch with reality. Of course, I don't agree with either of their "dogmas", etc. But if they want to beat/kill each other during a riot, etc. So much the better.

but who gave them the bricks, eh?

More very liberal far left lunatic fringers, etc., with $. USD E.g. Soros, etc. ? I saw the footage of pallets of bricks pre-positioned as well as containers with rocks, etc.. No intent of peaceful assembly or protests there. But I bet no one was ever tracked down and found out who paid for those bricks and stones. As Antifa rioters that were arrested were back out on the street in a short amount of time. Again, Antifa should be considered domestic terrorists. And properly and legally dealt with.

I thought I would look into this a bit. There is no doubt that bricks were thrown by rioters. There are competing narratives from protesters warning about "bait bricks" put there by law enforcement so that they could respond with greater force to the protesters.
Then there was the Brietbart report which seems to have started the idea of left wing wealthy people putting the bricks there for planned attacks. But they never actually tracked down the bricks. We leave a lot of bricks around to build things. A number of investigations finally found that many of the pallets had been there for weeks, months, and even a year before Floyd was killed.
It seems likely that most of the brick pallet stories are untrue. Some videos showing trucks delivering bricks were actually manipulated videos of pick up and removal. But there is no way to be entirely certain, and again, bricks were thrown by protestors.

Anitifa has no real centralized organization, making it hard to investigate, easy to blame with conspiracies. It certainly exists and there are some documented violent confrontations with far right groups, a lot of less violent responses to perceived white supremacy or neo Nazi groups. Not easy to quantify.

"But I bet no one was ever tracked down and found out who paid for those bricks and stones."

Well, if you go back about 30 years in Europe where Antifa started….it was the Soviet Union buying their bricks for them.

Tort, we'll have to agree to disagree. Antifa is quite well organized, but decentralized. They caused billions in damages during the 2020 riots.

I've noted several attacks on Project Veritas above. Several attacks, but no refutation of their reporting. If you have proof that they were wrong on some reporting, please share.

Well, if you go back about 30 years in Europe where Antifa started

Wrong. In the UK at least organised anti-fascist groups date to at least 1946.

And people on the side of the angels don't pay damages!

Dn, I think it is true that they have no centralized organization, as I said. This seems to be the general consensus. This makes it harder to verify their activities. They are a mix of leftist and anarchist ideologies. On the one hand they are a handy bunch to blame for everything as the right keeps trying to position itself as the side of law and order. On the other hand they are harder to pin down as they are deliberately vague as a group. They have mechanisms for pulling together for their actions, which I am not in any way defending.

Here's a good summary from CSIS, which I think is pretty objective.
link

Should I be cringing in fear of left wing terrorism now? Affiliations… currently unspecified.

Nope, I fear these lefties about as much as I fear the right. But they DO exist.

Subject: 5 protesters arrested at Atlanta police training center | National | bgdailynews.com


link

Subject: 5 leftist Georgia protesters charged with domestic terrorism after attacking police at 'Cop City' site | Fox News


link

I would not be doing any cringing, 35th, attacking cops and workers with molotovs is beyond dumb. This bunch sounds like the Literal Tree Huggers, maybe under the Antifa umbrella.

Very typical. Violent behavior, but no fatalities, protesting authority, destroying property. Small number of people, accomplishing what?

My point. There are morons on both sides. All are fringe groups and small in number.

Anitifa has no real centralized organization

They have some levels of organization. Maybe they are in "cells" it seems. They communicate online and elsewhere. But in a covert manner I'd believe.

A number of them show up at the same time to push their anarchist agenda, etc. They wear all black with pullover head covers and masks. They usually have a black backpack. Sometimes armed with hammers, etc.

They get bricks, stones, etc. in preplaced cashes at times.

I've seen this in footage and media reporting. They have some sort of organization, command structure, outside support, etc.

They seem to be taking lessons, whether that know it or not, from WWII Underground cells, the VC, etc., etc.

As long as they have their anarchist agenda, attack people and destroy property, etc. they are a threat. They are domestic terrorists and should be treated as such.

We studied unconventional warfare, partisan ops, Mao, Che', etc. Antifa seems to operate in some similar manners. And yet they still are free to do damage.

"Wrong. In the UK at least organised anti-fascist groups date to at least 1946."

Actually, Antifa goes back to the 1920s in Germany. However, they were funded by the Soviets in the 1970s and 80s. As were the 'Nuclear Freeze' groups. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I don't know who funded them in the 20s and 30s, ut would make and educated guess it was the Comintern or the local communist party in the same way the SA – brown shirts – were funded by the Nazi party.

" On the one hand they are a handy bunch to blame for everything as the right keeps trying to position itself as the side of law and order. On the other hand they are harder to pin down as they are deliberately vague as a group. They have mechanisms for pulling together for their actions, which I am not in any way defending."

To start, I in no way meant to intimate that you condone their actions Tort. If what I said came across that way I apologize.

They are very well organized. Watch footage from old protests, 2020, G7, and others. You'll see different colored flags in the crowd. Each color represents something specific; medical aid, supplies, water, etc. You'll see people in day-glo green ball caps, those are lawyers there to threaten police and 'protect' the protesters rights, (they use intimidation tactics to threaten police and reporters not sympathetic to their goals. I believe it was Oregan where they sued the city of Portland and found a sympathetic judge so the police are not allowed chemical agents, (OC or CS). They have riot armor and shields. They armed with 'non-lethal' weapons. They use forged press credentials to infiltrate police lines. These are just some examples.

Legion 4 pointed out the use of all black clothing. They'll move into a crowd, assault the police, then get together and 'de-bloc'. The crowd holds up banners, gathers in a group with the Antifa people in the center, and they change out of all black into normal cloths and merge with the crowd. It's not unlike Mao's quote about guerilla warfare, "The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea."

The 'Black Bloc' which originated these tactics were Anarchists, but seems they've been taken over by Antifa, which are Communists. Considering the traditional rivalry, (violent and deadly at times), this seems odd. Until you consider that a lot of these are simply professional protestors who are more anti-western than they are pro-anything.

Read Andy Ngo's book 'Unmasked' for some solid reporting on Antifa. There are several people in this thread attacking him, but they didn't refute anything he said.

No worries Dn, did not take anything that way.

Based on what I am hearing here, Antifa do appeared to be highly organized from a tactical perspective, and somebody, or somebodies must have developed this.
There still are no public focal point leaders, spokesmen, appropriated symbols, political allies etc. that the average person might identify with them. They are far more covert perhaps. Is this a better way to describe them?

Is QAnon a right wing equivalent ?